The Coyotes Conundrum

[jsm7302]

Will this franchise ever prosper? They have been in rebuild mode and a trainwreck forever. 

 

It seems like such a cool idea to have a hockey team in the desert but what will it take for success? Other than the obvious answer of playing games in an NHL arena as opposed to a college barn.

[Sod16]

Decent arena in a decent location with a team that makes the playoffs half the time would do the trick, as this is a better market than many in which teams are thriving.  Whether they can ever manage to do those things is open to question.  It represents an absurd failure on the part of the powers that be in that state that there are two much better arenas that this team could have played in temporarily while a new home is built, but the politicians failed to do what would be necessary to get them in there.

[SaveByRichter35]

There is nothing wrong with the arena they were just booted from.  While I admit I never attended a game inside the arena, I was there for a Giants Cardinals game.  But the complex which houses the arena and football stadium is pretty dope.  Nothing but bars, restaurants, and shops.  We stayed in a hotel not far away so I cannot comment on what the commute might be like for locals to get to the complex but I doubt it is anywhere near as bad as what any of us have to deal with driving in the NYC metro area on a daily basis.  

[Pete]

10 hours ago, SaveByRichter35 said:

There is nothing wrong with the arena they were just booted from.  While I admit I never attended a game inside the arena, I was there for a Giants Cardinals game.  But the complex which houses the arena and football stadium is pretty dope.  Nothing but bars, restaurants, and shops.  We stayed in a hotel not far away so I cannot comment on what the commute might be like for locals to get to the complex but I doubt it is anywhere near as bad as what any of us have to deal with driving in the NYC metro area on a daily basis.  

I don't think you can really compare.

 

I'd wager a majority of people at a Rangers game are aleady in the city for work or taking public transportation to MSG. 

 

Not many folks driving in just for games, I'd bet. 

[BlairBettsBlocksEverything]

3 hours ago, Pete said:

I don't think you can really compare.

 

I'd wager a majority of people at a Rangers game are aleady in the city for work or taking public transportation to MSG. 

 

Not many folks driving in just for games, I'd bet. 

Im going in with basically 0 knowledge about public transportation systems in the state of Arizona but I doubt they have nearly the amount of options as we do here. the vast majority of people going to a Rangers game do not need to drive in at all.

 

I hold out hope that the couple of years playing on a college campus will build up a lot of support for them with people who go to school there and stay in the state and carry on the fandom. If I were them though, I wouldnt have made tickets so expensive. Like, they're gonna be losing money anyway, might as well make it a college gameday atmosphere with young drunken college students making it a raucous crowd 

[SaveByRichter35]

5 hours ago, Pete said:

I don't think you can really compare.

 

I'd wager a majority of people at a Rangers game are aleady in the city for work or taking public transportation to MSG. 

 

Not many folks driving in just for games, I'd bet. 

Maybe can't compare with MSG being directly over a major public transportation hub but its not much different from the Coliseum or UBS or the old Meadowlands Arena(never been to the Rock so no clue how transportation is for that place).  Its in a suburban area.  

Edited March 8, 2023 by SaveByRichter35

[Pete]

26 minutes ago, SaveByRichter35 said:

Maybe can't compare with MSG being directly over a major public transportation hub but its not much different from the Coliseum or UBS or the old Meadowlands Arena(never been to the Rock so no clue how transportation is for that place).  Its in a suburban area.  

Yes, . Agreed any Stadium that's in a downtown area is going to have more success drawing than if you have to drive out to it, generally speaking.

Edited March 8, 2023 by Pete

[Pete]

1 hour ago, BlairBettsBlocksEverything said:

Im going in with basically 0 knowledge about public transportation systems in the state of Arizona but I doubt they have nearly the amount of options as we do here. the vast majority of people going to a Rangers game do not need to drive in at all.

 

I hold out hope that the couple of years playing on a college campus will build up a lot of support for them with people who go to school there and stay in the state and carry on the fandom. If I were them though, I wouldnt have made tickets so expensive. Like, they're gonna be losing money anyway, might as well make it a college gameday atmosphere with young drunken college students making it a raucous crowd 

I think it really comes down to the fact that it's hard to get folks into a cold rink when there's just so much to do outside, much more competition for the leisure dollar.

[Keirik]

It just doesn’t work there. The Coyotes weren’t always bad. In the 3 year period from  09/10 - 11/12 the Coyotes were 8th in the entire NHL in wins. That included a 50 win season, 3 years of playoffs, and a trip to the Conference Finals. 
 

09/10 lowest in the league in attendance (50 win season 107 points)

10/11  second lowest in the league (43 win season 99 points)

11/12 lowest in the league  (42 win season, 97 points, conference finals) 

[jsm7302]

8 hours ago, Keirik said:

It just doesn’t work there. The Coyotes weren’t always bad. In the 3 year period from  09/10 - 11/12 the Coyotes were 8th in the entire NHL in wins. That included a 50 win season, 3 years of playoffs, and a trip to the Conference Finals. 
 

09/10 lowest in the league in attendance (50 win season 107 points)

10/11  second lowest in the league (43 win season 99 points)

11/12 lowest in the league  (42 win season, 97 points, conference finals) 

So wierd that it can work in Florida but not Arizona. It really doesn't make sense. They have a huge transplant population (might be retirement age though, I'm not sure). 

 

Secondly...outside of logistics of the team....why can they not ice a product worth seeing? That could be part of the problem outside of the decade+ prior. I feel like they have relocated more than once in Arizona? 

[Pete]

12 minutes ago, jsm7302 said:

So wierd that it can work in Florida but not Arizona. It really doesn't make sense. They have a huge transplant population (might be retirement age though, I'm not sure). 

 

Secondly...outside of logistics of the team....why can they not ice a product worth seeing? That could be part of the problem outside of the decade+ prior. I feel like they have relocated more than once in Arizona? 

Doesn't even work everywhere in florida, works in Tampa but not Miami. 

[fletch]

having lived in georgia, arizona, northeast, midwest… as a general rule fans in the rust belt are most passionate about the nfl and nhl, in the southeast it’s about college football.  In warm weather climates people will go to games when the teams are good (dallas, tampa, miami, los angeles, atlanta, phoenix).  if the team sucks then people will go to the beach or lake or golf or whatever.  in buffalo or columbus people are more likely to go to games even when teams suck.  dallas has been consistently good and built a rabid fan base.  in phoenix you have spring training baseball, the suns, golf, and all kinds of outdoor activities.  there’s no reason to go to watch a hockey team that has been consistently bad and poorly managed.  they’ve botched the arena situation for years among the most obvious mismanagement.  they were a fun watch during the tkachuk years.  they’ve got some interesting young players like keller and schmaltz but if the fans don’t see stability and a path toward success it’s a tough sell.

[jsm7302]

10 hours ago, fletch said:

having lived in georgia, arizona, northeast, midwest… as a general rule fans in the rust belt are most passionate about the nfl and nhl, in the southeast it’s about college football.  In warm weather climates people will go to games when the teams are good (dallas, tampa, miami, los angeles, atlanta, phoenix).  if the team sucks then people will go to the beach or lake or golf or whatever.  in buffalo or columbus people are more likely to go to games even when teams suck.  dallas has been consistently good and built a rabid fan base.  in phoenix you have spring training baseball, the suns, golf, and all kinds of outdoor activities.  there’s no reason to go to watch a hockey team that has been consistently bad and poorly managed.  they’ve botched the arena situation for years among the most obvious mismanagement.  they were a fun watch during the tkachuk years.  they’ve got some interesting young players like keller and schmaltz but if the fans don’t see stability and a path toward success it’s a tough sell.

And that pretty much answers my questions. Put hockey in places where they ain't much to do and people can get passionate about a local team with pride. Could Virginia support a team? Richmond? Norfolk?

[fletch]

4 hours ago, jsm7302 said:

And that pretty much answers my questions. Put hockey in places where they ain't much to do and people can get passionate about a local team with pride. Could Virginia support a team? Richmond? Norfolk?

Professional teams fail no matter where they are geographically located due to mismanagement and chronic losing.  If you look at franchise relocations across professional sports in North America, generally it's because owners think they can make more money in a new market.  The exception to the rule might be the NBA Seattle Sonics moving to OKC and becoming the Thunder.  Generally smaller market teams go to a bigger market. Ownership changes, and the new owner moves the team.   Or owners foul up one market so spectacularly that the team moves to a new market to start fresh.

 

Generally larger markets have larger potential fanbases but also more competition (existing pro franchises in other leagues).  

 

So in direct response to 'put hockey in places where they ain't much to do and people can get passionate about a local team with pride' I counter with Ottawa.  Ottawa is in an area passionate about hockey.  They lost a team to relocation, and the current reincarnation has largely been a loser for the last 5 years, finishing 6th through 8th.  A little bit more signs of life this season, with an outside chance of a wild-card berth.  Attendance has been abysmal because the team has sucked.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Ottawa_Senators_seasons

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_National_Hockey_League_attendance_figures

[jsm7302]

47 minutes ago, fletch said:

Professional teams fail no matter where they are geographically located due to mismanagement and chronic losing.  If you look at franchise relocations across professional sports in North America, generally it's because owners think they can make more money in a new market.  The exception to the rule might be the NBA Seattle Sonics moving to OKC and becoming the Thunder.  Generally smaller market teams go to a bigger market. Ownership changes, and the new owner moves the team.   Or owners foul up one market so spectacularly that the team moves to a new market to start fresh.

 

Generally larger markets have larger potential fanbases but also more competition (existing pro franchises in other leagues).  

 

So in direct response to 'put hockey in places where they ain't much to do and people can get passionate about a local team with pride' I counter with Ottawa.  Ottawa is in an area passionate about hockey.  They lost a team to relocation, and the current reincarnation has largely been a loser for the last 5 years, finishing 6th through 8th.  A little bit more signs of life this season, with an outside chance of a wild-card berth.  Attendance has been abysmal because the team has sucked.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Ottawa_Senators_seasons

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_National_Hockey_League_attendance_figures

Ryan Reynolds is going to be the new mascot as Deadpool.... Ottawa will be fine.....haha

 

Definitely interesting takes; I feel like the Yotes are going to be moving. To where I don't know but by the convo we are having....it really won't matter because they still suck and there is no light on the horizon. Completely mismanaged year after year.

[siddious]

Love the yotes identity and logo etc..

 

you’re not going to succeed when you suck year after year. The location issue didn’t help anything. Ownership/not paying bills, bad press, etc…. 
 

get this team a well placed arena, let them build a successful team for more than a season or two and I have no doubt you can have success there. Now will that happen? Who know this may be the end of the line for them already. 

[Phil]

The Yotes' issues have compounded. It's a brand issue. Not identity, but brand — what people think of when they hear "Arizona Coyotes." Even among their own fans, I'd imagine their support is way down over the years because the team has effectively operated as a live money laundering scheme and dumping ground for bad contracts. Imagine trying to be a fan of a team that seemingly has no plan to ever be good again.

 

Early on, when they were playing out of the America West Arena, they were actually drawing crowds and had players worth selling. Tkachuk, young Doan, Roenick, Khabibulin, even Mike Gartner. As the years have gone on, things have mostly just gotten worse. Dwindling fan support coinciding with dwindling on ice success, arena issues (including location), attendance issues, ownership issues. It's just been a giant vortex of shit.

 

They really need this Tempe plan to work. If it doesn't, I don't see them lasting much longer in Arizona. Not with Houston looming the way it is.

[H-Dreamer]

It's really a quite obvious situation now, if they get the new Arena they stay and if they don't even Bettman will find it hard to justify staying in Arizona, because then they would basically be in the same situation the Thrashers were in when they left for Winnipeg.

 

[Phil]

1 minute ago, H-Dreamer said:

It's really a quite obvious situation now, if they get the new Arena they stay and if they don't even Bettman will find it hard to justify staying in Arizona, because then they would basically be in the same situation the Thrashers were in when they left for Winnipeg.

 

 

Sorta the opposite. Thrashers had an arena but ownership wanted out and no one wanted to buy. Coyotes have no arena but ownership seems stable.

[Sod16]

5 hours ago, fletch said:

So in direct response to 'put hockey in places where they ain't much to do and people can get passionate about a local team with pride' I counter with Ottawa.  Ottawa is in an area passionate about hockey.  They lost a team to relocation, and the current reincarnation has largely been a loser for the last 5 years, finishing 6th through 8th.  A little bit more signs of life this season, with an outside chance of a wild-card berth.  Attendance has been abysmal because the team has sucked.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Ottawa_Senators_seasons

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_National_Hockey_League_attendance_figures

Ottawa was not selling out playoff games in 2017 when they were on a major run.  It really hasn't been a great market, squeezed by loyal Leafs and Habs fans.  It will never get moved, do to it being the capital, but it should be high on the list of teams that should be moved.

[siddious]

Their social media alone is worth keeping the yotes around 

 

[Sharpshooter]

Now that they've gone back to their old look and Kachina logo, I don't want them to move. lol

[H-Dreamer]

23 hours ago, Phil said:

 

Sorta the opposite. Thrashers had an arena but ownership wanted out and no one wanted to buy. Coyotes have no arena but ownership seems stable.

I vaguely remember that the lease to Philipps Arena had run out at the end and that was part of why the NHL approved the move, but might be wrong.

[Phil]

Oh, you could be correct. It was a long time ago, but I know that the league was struggling to find willing owners. The ATL move to Winnipeg was relatively rapid and basically occurred over a summer the moment the league stopped believing they could find someone or someones to keep the team in place.

[siddious]

 

haven’t verified but Jesus just fold that franchise already at this point 

 

edit: Yepp it’s real

 

 

Edited March 25, 2023 by siddious