Lafrenière Re-Reset: the 2022-23 Edition

[RangersIn7]

1 hour ago, Pete said:

They couldn't afford to pay Eichel and keep Zib. 

 

I'd rather have Zib at $8M than Eichel at $10.

 

1 hour ago, RJWantsTheCup said:

I wouldn't call Lafraniere + for Eichel a year ago being blown away.

The trade package in total, itself, is immaterial. 
 

And the money didn’t stop the trade.

Pegula did. At least in part cause LaFreniere or Kakko were not included. 

[Keirik]

3 hours ago, Pete said:

 

That's not GGs "big" weakness, not even close. His big weakness is that he has no type of on ice plan. He's the NHL's highest paid cheerleader. 

 

That said, both the kids and the coach are in a unique position where they are trying to win now, but also have kids to develop. There aren't many teams with 2nd or 3rd year #1 or #2 overall going straight to the Eastern conference final. 

 

They're all caught between a rock and a hard place, because you have to play the kids in key situations so that they'll develop, but he's also mandated to try and win based on the way the last regime went out.

 

So I don't really blame him for playing the players he thinks give him the best chance to win, and 9 out of 10 coaches will say that it's a reliable veteran over a younger player. 

It’s not as much as I really blame him as I think this is just who he is as a coach. I 100% agree that his biggest weakness is a lack of an on ice system or plan. I think that also extends though to no plan on how to manage ice time or plan to get rest to top 6 or different looks. It’s a bit harder this year with our struggles but I still don’t understand why he does t take any time to cultivate our talent and put them in positions to thrive. At home when we get the last change, why not put pp2 out there sometimes to start? Or many get the kid line better looks against an inferior line? Little changes like this might be one reason why we stink at 5v5. If you play the top 6 for 2 minutes on EVERY PP, you’re not going to have anything left in the tank elsewhere. 

[Pete]

29 minutes ago, Keirik said:

It’s not as much as I really blame him as I think this is just who he is as a coach. I 100% agree that his biggest weakness is a lack of an on ice system or plan. I think that also extends though to no plan on how to manage ice time or plan to get rest to top 6 or different looks. It’s a bit harder this year with our struggles but I still don’t understand why he does t take any time to cultivate our talent and put them in positions to thrive. At home when we get the last change, why not put pp2 out there sometimes to start? Or many get the kid line better looks against an inferior line? Little changes like this might be one reason why we stink at 5v5. If you play the top 6 for 2 minutes on EVERY PP, you’re not going to have anything left in the tank elsewhere. 

Personally, I don't disagree, but if I told you your PP could have a Norris winner, 100pt player, 50g scorer and one of the best one time snipes in the game today, I'd play then 1:30 of every PP, too.

 

And yes, I know they have struggled but they have also earned the right to work it out...They are all star caliber players who just happen to be playing poor hockey right now. You're never as good as you look when you're winning, or as bad as you look when you're losing.

[Pete]

47 minutes ago, RangersIn7 said:

 

The trade package in total, itself, is immaterial. 
 

And the money didn’t stop the trade.

Pegula did. At least in part cause LaFreniere or Kakko were not included. 

Was that verified?

[Cash or Czech]

6 minutes ago, Pete said:

Was that verified?

 

https://www.lohud.com/story/sports/nhl/rangers/2021/11/04/jack-eichel-trade-ny-rangers-vegas-golden-knights/6281431001/

 

Quote

The New York Rangers had legitimate interest and attempted to make competitive offers, but it became painfully obvious to team president and general manager Chris Drury this summer that there were too many roadblocks to pull off a trade.

 

Sabres GM Kevyn Adams was willing to engage, but multiple people close to the situation told lohud.com, part of the USA TODAY Network, that Buffalo owner Terry Pegula was against sending his star player downstate.

 

The Rangers and Sabres are in different divisions this season, but that rationale didn't seem to matter. Pegula's preference all along was to move Eichel to the Western Conference.

 

Quote

Those who believe the Rangers could have put a comparable package together are not wrong given their collection of young players and draft picks, but they're missing the larger point. It was going to cost them much more for Adams to convince Pegula it was a deal worth taking.

 

The Sabres pushed for either Alexis Lafrenière or Kaapo Kakko to be included, which we reported back in July, but Drury held firm.

 

Edited December 2, 2022 by Cash or Czech

[Pete]

34 minutes ago, Cash or Czech said:

 

https://www.lohud.com/story/sports/nhl/rangers/2021/11/04/jack-eichel-trade-ny-rangers-vegas-golden-knights/6281431001/

 

 

 

Right, so it would have been enter Eichel, exit Mika.

 

Drury made the right choice, IMO.

Edited December 2, 2022 by Pete

[Scott]

As for Laf and Kakko it's total disappointment, not hatred, disappointment.  Somebody mentioned having the "it" factor in another thread, neither have it imo. The flashes they have shown are so few and far between I have no confidence they're going to find it. Can they play in the NHL, sure, can they be difference makers on a consistent basis, I don't see it. 

 

We can certainly play the whatabout this other guy/group being bad (and that's true) - let's do it in another thread, this one is about Laf (I lumped in Kakko for obvious reasons).  These guys should and I believe were being counted on to take significant steps this year to make themselves and those around them better. 

 

As for last year's playoffs Laf and Kakko combined for 4 goals in 39 games, Kakko being so good he was a scratch in the last game. Chytil who appears to have taken a next step put up 7, I believe he had 2 multiple goal games? Chytil averaged 23 points his first 4 years.

 

If the thought is it's going to take another 3 seasons for them to find their stride that timing is a disaster for this roster and it's core.  After watching this team for close to 50 years now it makes it especially painful to watch a 1OA and 2OA come in and produce so little and not show any signs of having "it".

[RJWantsTheCup]

Chytil is on pace for 18 goals and 50 points in 82 games.

Kakko 14 goals and 27 points.

Lafraniere 11 goals and 34 points.

 

Other than Chytil not sure anyone is content with that production at this stage in their careers.

[RangersIn7]

1 hour ago, Pete said:

Was that verified?

 

53 minutes ago, Pete said:

Right, so it would have been enter Eichel, exit Mika.

 

Drury made the right choice, IMO.

Actually no.

 

Wrong. 
 

The story doesn’t say that, so don’t assume.

 

Another contract could’ve moved out of town too. 

Edited December 2, 2022 by RangersIn7

[RangersIn7]

1 hour ago, Cash or Czech said:

 

https://www.lohud.com/story/sports/nhl/rangers/2021/11/04/jack-eichel-trade-ny-rangers-vegas-golden-knights/6281431001/

 

 

 

Thank you

[Pete]

39 minutes ago, RangersIn7 said:

 

Actually no.

 

Wrong. 
 

The story doesn’t say that, so don’t assume.

 

Another contract could’ve moved out of town too. 

It's not an assumption, it's math. They can't afford Mika at 8, Eichel at 10, Panarin at 11, and Fox at 10. Maybe they bridge Fox (off a Norris), but then they can't afford raises.

 

So yea, it was bye Mika, Hi Jack.

[Sharpshooter]

It's not disappointment, it's major disappointment. Even if they both turn out to be nice players, that's not really what you're hoping for when you have two top two picks in consecutive years. You don't want nice players, you want franchise altering players. Neither of them are it. You can argue if they needed time in the AHL until you're blue in the face. I can't even say the Rangers screwed them up, because I don't know. Maybe they're just not that good? Sometimes I wonder what exactly the scouts saw in these guys, especially Lafreniere. He doesn't really do anything well, or even competently most of the time. He doesn't score, he doesn't pass (it's alright some of the time), he doesn't dangle and he's a terrible skater, he basically just skates in a straight line (at best), and not very well conditioned. Big UGH.

[Scott]

30 minutes ago, Sharpshooter said:

It's not disappointment, it's major disappointment. Even if they both turn out to be nice players, that's not really what you're hoping for when you have two top two picks in consecutive years. You don't want nice players, you want franchise altering players. Neither of them are it. You can argue if they needed time in the AHL until you're blue in the face. I can't even say the Rangers screwed them up, because I don't know. Maybe they're just not that good? Sometimes I wonder what exactly the scouts saw in these guys, especially Lafreniere. He doesn't really do anything well, or even competently most of the time. He doesn't score, he doesn't pass (it's alright some of the time), he doesn't dangle and he's a terrible skater, he basically just skates in a straight line (at best), and not very well conditioned. Big UGH.

Yeah I was trying to be nice and somewhat politically correct, but yeah. Ugh is right. Shit.

 

Come on kids prove us wrong. Let's go!

Edited December 2, 2022 by jsrangers

[The Dude]

19 hours ago, josh said:

Lafreniere and Kakko with some decent PP time will be fire.

 

both are so so so close. 
 

Yes, want more points, but extremely weird time to single out Lafreniere when there are money boys playing like dog shit 

He's supposed to be as good as the "money boys"(??), but he's not. Not at all. He's regressed. He looks out of shape again and is playing "pussy hockey".

 

There's really nothing there that can't be replaced by any typical 3rd liner. This is our 1 OA. If any team still thinks highly of him, they really need to consider moving on. The way it looks, his value can only go down.... more... 

 

PP time is a lame excuse. He's getting favorable match ups as a 3rd liner. He should be dominating play and he seriously looks like an AHL plug lately. Kakko isn't much better. His stock is dogshit too, only older dogshit and probably worth less. 

 

I move him. Quick. If he becomes a star elsewhere? Oh well.  It's not going to happen here with the Rangers.  I've run out of patience.  He (and Kakko) have gotten the needed opportunities  to show they belong in the top 6. The both flopped. 

 

I was all in on the kid line. I really thought that they found their games together.  Except for a few games,  it's not exactly clicking.  Chytil carries a line containing a 1 and 2 OA. It's disgusting and should no longer be tolerated. 

[The Dude]

16 hours ago, Keirik said:

We are nowhere near close to this conversation yet. He’s not the worst fwd, he doesn’t deserve 4th line minutes, and he isn’t running out of options. 
 

This is another issue that kind of goes back to Gallant right now. His growth isn’t going to come if he isn’t put in positions to succeed. Gallants refusal to ever start a pp2 unit affects guys like Alf a heck of a lot. Never being out there ever in important minutes affects him also. This entire team is over using the top 6 to a level of insanity. 

While I agree they rely heavily on the top 6, he gets favorable match ups as a 3rd liner and should be tearing new assholes into the opposition. He's not. Not even close. 

 

I think we are extremely close to that conversation. Year 3 and it's still the same thing.  No dominant shifts. No carrying a line. No goals. No legs. No creating offense. No physical play. He's so regular at this point that it should be clear that he's not what everyone was expecting.  

 

If any GM thinks as highly of him as many here do,  Drury really needs to think about moving him for the good of the franchise and of the player. It's not happening here and it's not looking like the situation here is going to change in his favor. 

[The Dude]

17 hours ago, Tonybologna said:

Assume Laf and his agent are willing to take this deal: would anyone feel comfortable giving Laf an 8 year, 5 mil per contract? NMC of course. Sort of a thought exercise in whether we see that contract as a future steal or a future anchor. I would but only cause I'm a gambling man and also an optimist, curious what others think.

I'm thinking Lafrenière and his agent are looking for the quickest route out of NY. It hasn't gone well. If he's better than this, it's going to happen elsewhere and I think as the days go by, Lafrenière thinks that way. As built, there's no room for growth for him here, unless he switches to RW. 

[-ERIK-]

1 hour ago, The Dude said:

He's supposed to be as good as the "money boys"(??), but he's not. Not at all. He's regressed. He looks out of shape again and is playing "pussy hockey".

 

There's really nothing there that can't be replaced by any typical 3rd liner. This is our 1 OA. If any team still thinks highly of him, they really need to consider moving on. The way it looks, his value can only go down.... more... 

 

PP time is a lame excuse. He's getting favorable match ups as a 3rd liner. He should be dominating play and he seriously looks like an AHL plug lately. Kakko isn't much better. His stock is dogshit too, only older dogshit and probably worth less. 

 

I move him. Quick. If he becomes a star elsewhere? Oh well.  It's not going to happen here with the Rangers.  I've run out of patience.  He (and Kakko) have gotten the needed opportunities  to show they belong in the top 6. The both flopped. 

 

I was all in on the kid line. I really thought that they found their games together.  Except for a few games,  it's not exactly clicking.  Chytil carries a line containing a 1 and 2 OA. It's disgusting and should no longer be tolerated. 

He’s not suppose to be as good as  the “money boys” yet. So we expected him to be as good as Mika or Panarin already??

PP time isn’t is a lame excuse ,he gets garbage time .  Yes he should make something happen in 26 seconds .
Laf has been yanked around on lines more than almost anyone and than played out of position as well.

 

He looked better earlier when he was with Panarin ,they had some chemistry but gallant broke them up and reunited the kid line who haven’t recaptured the playoff magic.

 

I think we are all frustrated and want more results ,I think we need to be a little more patient. 

[RangersIn7]

4 hours ago, Pete said:

It's not an assumption, it's math. They can't afford Mika at 8, Eichel at 10, Panarin at 11, and Fox at 10. Maybe they bridge Fox (off a Norris), but then they can't afford raises.

 

So yea, it was bye Mika, Hi Jack.

Or was it maybe bye to someone else to keep them both.

 

Yes. Your response makes sense.

But you weren’t in the room. So you don’t actually know. 

[The Dude]

3 minutes ago, -ERIK- said:

He’s not suppose to be as good as  the “money boys” yet. So we expected him to be as good as Mika or Panarin already??

PP time isn’t is a lame excuse ,he gets garbage time .  Yes he should make something happen in 26 seconds .
Laf has been yanked around on lines more than almost anyone and than played out of position as well.

 

He looked better earlier when he was with Panarin ,they had some chemistry but gallant broke them up and reunited the kid line who haven’t recaptured the playoff magic.

 

I think we are all frustrated and want more results ,I think we need to be a little more patient. 

It's year 3 of a 1st overall pick. He's supposed to be close if not equal to the top players on the team. He's not even the best player on the 3rd line. This isn't a 25th pick in a draft. This guy was supposed to be close to a generational talent. He's a big disappointment .

 

If he dominated on his own, maybe he'd get more PP time. Again,  he's getting favorable match ups. He's playing against 3rd and 4th liners. He's playing in spots where teams top D men and forwards are being worn down by the PP1 that is out there for 2 minutes.  There's no excuse for his lack of exceptional play. He's not next level.  He's ordinary.

 

Right now he's pretty expendable depending on the return (He's not alone, but this is a thread dedicated to HIS ordinary play).  I think he still has value. I even think he might turn it around.  Just not here in this situation.  So, IMO they need to trade him before they diminish his value more, or he decides that he wants out of this situation that isn't suited for him at this moment. 

[BrooksBurner]

1 hour ago, The Dude said:

It's year 3 of a 1st overall pick. He's supposed to be close if not equal to the top players on the team. He's not even the best player on the 3rd line. This isn't a 25th pick in a draft. This guy was supposed to be close to a generational talent. He's a big disappointment .

 

If he dominated on his own, maybe he'd get more PP time. Again,  he's getting favorable match ups. He's playing against 3rd and 4th liners. He's playing in spots where teams top D men and forwards are being worn down by the PP1 that is out there for 2 minutes.  There's no excuse for his lack of exceptional play. He's not next level.  He's ordinary.

 

Right now he's pretty expendable depending on the return (He's not alone, but this is a thread dedicated to HIS ordinary play).  I think he still has value. I even think he might turn it around.  Just not here in this situation.  So, IMO they need to trade him before they diminish his value more, or he decides that he wants out of this situation that isn't suited for him at this moment. 

 

This is what it all comes down to. We shouldn't have to dig for positives. A guy that highly touted should have been busting the door down to PP1, making it impossible not to have him out there. It's not like Strome was an immoveable object, and it's not like Trocheck is an immoveable object. Good players? Yes. Also not 1st overall picks who everyone had penciled in for 50+ pts year 1. It was and has been attainable without being flat out gifted the PP role.

Edited December 3, 2022 by rmc51

[Pete]

9 hours ago, RangersIn7 said:

Or was it maybe bye to someone else to keep them both.

 

Yes. Your response makes sense.

But you weren’t in the room. So you don’t actually know. 

I don't need to be in the room for math. We also had conversations and nauseum about how there would be no way to keep both players and all the circumstances around why. 

 

Not really sure why you're making this a hill to die on. Your point stands, yes they could have had Eichel for Lafreniere plus. That's true.

 

I'm just saying I'm glad they didn't do that deal because I'd rather have Zib at his AAV than Eichel.  

[ThirtyONE]

I've never seen a kid so talented do absolutely nothing with the puck. When he made that sick between the legs play last year I thought, oh shit, he unlocked something. But he just hasn't. Every offensive play dies on his stick. He never makes an unexpected play, let alone an exciting one. 

 

Are the Rangers unlucky or just terrible at developing? Probably the latter considering how poorly this rebuild has actually gone. 

[Pete]

@Dunny called this and we talked about it... He called Laffy Owen Nolan and I said "if you're right, that would be disappointing."

 

I'm dumbing this down of course, but Owen Nolan was like a 60 point player when his contemporaries, meaning high draft picks in the years surrounding his draft, were scoring up to 100. He had some hot years, and some cold ones. 

 

That's pretty much what we're looking at here. 

[RJWantsTheCup]

If he's Owen Nolan sell now while the value is still high.

[siddious]

I’m still confused how this guy was considered a 1OA pretty universally. He’s just not good at anything in particular.