Kaapo Kakko Stinks

[Scott]

7 minutes ago, Phil said:

 

That's one way of putting it, sure. You can call it splitting hairs, but I'd say it's been devastating. Not getting exceptional value out of ELCs from high draft picks is a death sentence.

yes sir, they should be steals when it comes to ROI when they're on their ELCs. Not bargains where well  sure they suck but they're cheap.  Kakko went out and set the bar so high his rookie year with 10G 13A for 23Pts we can't help being disappointed since  his numbers have only declined. 1 goal in his last 20 while playing exclusively in the top six if not top 3, that's a hell of a bender. 

 

If Hughes doesn't get broken in half because of his size he will and has already begun to prove he's a guy who wants the puck on his stick all the time and will rack up points while we settle for well maybe next year. All the while being built like an 11 year old girl. But at least our two if nothing else are NHL ready. It's so frustrating. 

 

It's not all negative remember that defensive play where Loaf dove to knock the puck away on the semi-break away. The one where he couldn't pick his head up off the dasher on the bench for who knows how long because he couldn't breathe.

 

Look if they continue to suck we all lose so hopefully they magically figure it out but I don't see it even a little. 

 

 

 

 

[Phil]

Oh, and Kakko has played 253:49 on the PP. He has 18 points.

[RJWantsTheCup]

Not for nothing, I'm pretty sure it's Ozzy's socks that stink.

[Ozzy]

1 minute ago, RJWantsTheCup said:

Not for nothing, I'm pretty sure it's Ozzy's socks that stink.

 

It's my feet!  The socks are clean!!  LOL

[Phil]

2 hours ago, Ozzy said:

I'm still gonna give Kakko and Yukon the benefit of the doubt here.  I believe they're way too young to give up on.  I see talent in both of them, and what's more is that I don't see fear in their game like I feel in Chytil's game.

 

I have a sickening feeling that if I give up on either of these guys, I know damn well they're going to blossom big time, and I'm gonna wish we stayed the course.

 

They both have massive talent, and I just think they need to play more games and become men, in their minds and in their bodies.

 

I think @josh is right...we're gonna look back at this thread and kick ourselves or giggle a lot.

 

I'm not suggesting they dump either of them. I wouldn't yet for all of these reasons, and really, for practicality. They're on ELCs. They're not getting significant raises (or surely don't deserve them). When arbitration becomes a factor, things might look different. But right now, the Rangers have little choice but to ride it out and hope something clicks.

 

That doesn't make either of them immune from criticism, however, which is what this thread is about.

 

Teams in the NHL can sell one of two things: hope or wins. In the case of Kakko, especially, the Rangers should be selling wins, but they're not, because he's not contributing to them. At all. Neither is Lafreniere, but he's probably still in his grace window.

[Sharpshooter]

I can't really blame the coaching staff for not giving Kakko some more PP time where he really didn't produce playing with Panarin at even strength. That was quite damning.

[Cash or Czech]

34 minutes ago, Phil said:

 

That's one way of putting it, sure. You can call it splitting hairs, but I'd say it's been devastating. Not getting exceptional value out of ELCs from high draft picks is a death sentence.

 

We're still 4th in the league. It'd be deadly if we missed the playoffs at this stage. It'll be deadly next year if we don't win at least one or two rounds. I don't think it's deadly if we are still achieving our goals. If we are falling short, then I understand and would agree.

[Phil]

Kakko also plays the overwhelming majority of his time in the top-six. That he can't convert there, but suddenly will with the same players on the PP is excuse-making.

 

Steven Stamkos' rookie year he went 23-23-46.  14  of those goals (61%) and 29 of his points (63%) were at 5v5.

[Ozzy]

It seems to be a damned if you do....damned if you don't situation to me.

 

In one case you say fuck it, he sucks.... and we trade him away and get yet another wet bag of shit we can't/don't use, and that player is the "what we got back for our #2 OA" where now Kakko's lighting up the league winning the Selke and going to the Cup finals, because he scored the winning goal in the Conference finals on a great play that he made!

 

The scene where again our lack of patience comes back to haunt us.

 

Then we have scenario #2:

 

This is where we hang on to Kakko/Yukon, and they become the epitome of a bust where they're barely playing 3rd line minutes and they're (-10) for the season racking up 12 goals and 15 assists while the Rangers are wallowing in 4th place riding the hot production of a guy like Blais who was brought here to be a banger and yet he's scoring more gaols than these 2 fucking guys.

 

I personally don't see scenario #2 happening, and that's why I'm sticking my money on these 2 showing why they were #1 and #2 OA in successive years.  All those scouts couldn't be wrong....maybe it's not going to happen quickly with these guys, but I just feel when they do break out, we're gonna be really happy we waited.  I'd much rather wait and let them develop, than give up on them, trade them and have it all blow up in our face, thinking "how the fuck do you trade away your 2 top lottery picks and not give them the time to develop past puberty??"

 

Hang tough boys, I think everything's gonna work out just fine with these 2...I just have a feeling!

[Phil]

5 minutes ago, Cash or Czech said:

We're still 4th in the league. It'd be deadly if we missed the playoffs at this stage. It'll be deadly next year if we don't win at least one or two rounds. I don't think it's deadly if we are still achieving our goals. If we are falling short, then I understand and would agree.

 

I understand that, and I agree, but that's not the point. This is an individual assessment. That Kakko and Lafreniere haven't found productive gears is damning, because while it's not hurting them now, it will the moment the goaltending dries up and/or the prime production years of Zibanejad, Kreider, and Strome go down.

 

These two players, more than anyone (though I'd also include Chytil in this conversation) are going to be relied on rather quickly to make up lost ground as veteran players age out. There's absolutely nothing to suggest they're up to the task right now, and that's terrifying.

[Phil]

Just now, Ozzy said:

It seems to be a damned if you do....damned if you don't situation to me.

 

In one case you say fuck it, he sucks.... and we trade him away and get yet another wet bag of shit we can't/don't use, and that player is the "what we got back for our #2 OA" where now Kakko's lighting up the league winning the Selke and going to the Cup finals, because he scored the winning goal in the Conference finals on a great play that he made!

 

The scene where again our lack of patience comes back to haunt us.

 

Then we have scenario #2:

 

This is where we hang on to Kakko/Yukon, and they become the epitome of a bust where they're barely playing 3rd line minutes and they're (-10) for the season racking up 12 goals and 15 assists while the Rangers are wallowing in 4th place riding the hot production of a guy like Blais who was brought here to be a banger and yet he's scoring more gaols than these 2 fucking guys.

 

I personally don't see scenario #2 happening, and that's why I'm sticking my money on these 2 showing why they were #1 and #2 OA in successive years.  All those scouts couldn't be wrong....maybe it's not going to happen quickly with these guys, but I just feel when they do break out, we're gonna be really happy we waited.  I'd much rather wait and let them develop, than give up on them, trade them and have it all blow up in our face, thinking "how the fuck do you trade away your 2 top lottery picks and not give them the time to develop past puberty??"

 

Hang tough boys, I think everything's gonna work out just fine with these 2...I just have a feeling!

 

Scenario 3: they continue to be what they've shown they are thus far: middle-six forwards who can't be relied on to carry or significantly contribute to their teams' offense. If this also occurs at the same time as key injuries and/or downward scoring trends for veteran players, the club's ability to make the playoffs, let alone do any damage in them, is in jeopardy.

[Cash or Czech]

3 minutes ago, Phil said:

 

I understand that, and I agree, but that's not the point. This is an individual assessment. That Kakko and Lafreniere haven't found productive gears is damning, because while it's not hurting them now, it will the moment the goaltending dries up and/or the prime production years of Zibanejad, Kreider, and Strome go down.

 

These two players, more than anyone (though I'd also include Chytil in this conversation) are going to be relied on rather quickly to make up lost ground as veteran players age out. There's absolutely nothing to suggest they're up to the task right now, and that's terrifying.

 

Agreed. They've been dreadful, and there haven't been comparable cases for a while. I'm glad it's not hurting us, but if they were playing to their full potential we'd probably have the best offense in the league. While it isn't a problem now, if they don't take the next step, it'll be a huge wasted opportunity. I wonder what the Vegas odds were of both the 2OA and 1OA going to NYR and being busts was.

[Ozzy]

7 minutes ago, Phil said:

 

Scenario 3: they continue to be what they've shown they are thus far: middle-six forwards who can't be relied on to carry or significantly contribute to their teams' offense. If this also occurs at the same time as key injuries and/or downward scoring trends for veteran players, the club's ability to make the playoffs, let alone do any damage in them, is in jeopardy.

 

That is what I hope doesn't happen.  I don't see that happening under Gallant though.  Especially with the veterans we brought in this season.  I think guys like Goodrow, Reaves, and especially Kreider can now do the work they should have been doing by helping these kids.

 

I'm gonna stop short of blaming Quinn or anyone from the last 2 seasons, but I think both of them have shown some short flashes of brilliance this season, and I think they have improved. 

 

I don't like those PP stats though....to me, they play the last 30 seconds of the PP and it's usually after the other team clears the puck, so it gives them what, 20-25 seconds of cleanup duty?  eh...

 

I'd rather judge their games at 5v5...that's playoff hockey, where the whistle goes deep into the ref's pocket and we see what's what with these teams.

 

We have a ways to go yet this season, and I'm actually looking forward to seeing these guys get this shit right and catch fire.  I totally believe it's gonna happen sooner than later!  There's too much talent there!

Edited January 12, 2022 by Ozzy

[Phil]

5 minutes ago, Cash or Czech said:

 

Agreed. They've been dreadful, and there haven't been comparable cases for a while. I'm glad it's not hurting us, but if they were playing to their full potential we'd probably have the best offense in the league. While it isn't a problem now, if they don't take the next step, it'll be a huge wasted opportunity. I wonder what the Vegas odds were of both the 2OA and 1OA going to NYR and being busts was.

 

If we narrow it to forwards, the most recent are Nolan Patrick (2nd overall in 2017) and Nail Yakupov (1st in 2012). Trying to find back-to-back 1/2 "busts" (for lack of a better term), I guess you have to go back to Legand (2nd in '98) and Stefan (1st in '99). Separate teams, though. Can't think of a single team that went back-to-back like this.

[Phil]

6 minutes ago, Ozzy said:

I don't like those PP stats though....to me, they play the last 30 seconds of the PP and it's usually after the other team clears the puck, so it gives them what, 20-25 seconds of cleanup duty?  eh...

 

I'd rather judge their games at 5v5...that's playoff hockey, where the whistle goes deep into the ref's pocket and we see what's what with these teams.

 

Agreed on the PP stats. But again, PP opportunity is almost always borne out of ES production, which explains why they've had no opportunity there. They lack it in spades. It's also important to note that the team's PP constants these last three years (Zibanejad, Kreider, Panarin, and Strome) are exceptionally productive there.

[Cash or Czech]

Only good news from this, maybe we can get Kakko to sign 2 years $1M AAV so we can afford a backup goalie or a better plug in the bottom-6. Then he goes off for a monster 4th season and we get insane value. Probably about as farfetched a dream as any right now.

[Phil]

4 minutes ago, Cash or Czech said:

Only good news from this, maybe we can get Kakko to sign 2 years $1M AAV so we can afford a backup goalie or a better plug in the bottom-6. Then he goes off for a monster 4th season and we get insane value. Probably about as farfetched a dream as any right now.

 

Doubtful. He'll get a modest raise. Probably around $2.5M per.

[Ozzy]

14 minutes ago, Phil said:

 

Agreed on the PP stats. But again, PP opportunity is almost always borne out of ES production, which explains why they've had no opportunity there. They lack it in spades. It's also important to note that the team's PP constants these last three years (Zibanejad, Kreider, Panarin, and Strome) are exceptionally productive there.

 

No doubt, man!  I wouldn't be replacing any of those 4 on the PP right now.  It's pretty much winning us games on a nightly basis.   ...and in order to supplant any of them, Kakko and Laff are going to have to turn goat piss into gasoline! 

 

Basically I'm thinking the both of them are not going to be earmarked for any PP time, other than clean up duty the rest of the season.  And I think it should be that way!  Let them watch some more, and keep getting their feet wet on the PP2.

 

I think you're right though;  I wanna see the 5v5 points/contributions step up a bunch.

 

[Phil]

Right. It's not likely that those four will get bumped anytime soon, but if they are, it's for a productive Kakko and/or Lafreniere. So, sure, you can caveat their lack of production by talking about how they lacked the same PP opportunities as other top-of-draft picks, and you'll be partially right, but unlike the majority of those players/peers, they've done little at ES to suggest they really deserve it.

[Tomas Sandstrom]

You guys are harsh.

 

First of all, the team is exceeding most, if not all, expectations.   Anyone care to argue with that statement?

 

Second of all, I GET that we all had super high expectations out of the #1 and #2 picks in back to back drafts.  However, we are still talking about kids here.  While I understand some players hit the NHL at 18, 19, 20, and just dominate from day 1, putting up all-star stats, most do not.  Not even high picks like this.

 

Also, teams can have different dynamics.  Perhaps the way this particular team plays, the coaches have instructed these kids to focus on things other than scoring?   Maybe this coaching staff feels they can score enough between Fox, Kreider, Panarin, Zib, and Strome as the primary offensive contributors?  Maybe they feel it's best for the team, and for the DEVELOPMENT of these kids at the NHL Level to have them focusing primarily on other parts of their game right now, knowing that when the time comes, these guys can pick up the production?  

 

Maybe all you folks criticizing these kids are doing yourself and them a great disservice.

 

Unless you are inside that locker room and listening to the interactions between coaches and players, maybe you should think twice about criticizing when you truly don't understand.

Edited January 12, 2022 by Tomas Sandstrom

[Phil]

34 minutes ago, Tomas Sandstrom said:

You guys are harsh.

 

First of all, the team is exceeding most, if not all, expectations.   Anyone care to argue with that statement?

 

I think it's clear I'm the one you're addressing here without speaking directly at me, so I'll respond:

 

No, I don't care to argue with it, because it's accurate, and I've never argued otherwise. In fact, I'm the one who's been banging the #GoodTeam drum for months, in spite of their obvious flaws, like their negative goal differential at even strength (the only playoff team in this position), and their lack of 5v5 scoring, in general. This isn't binary. I can simultaneously believe they're a good team and that individual players are under-performing.

 

Quote

Second of all, I GET that we all had super high expectations out of the #1 and #2 picks in back to back drafts.  However, we are still talking about kids here.  While I understand some players hit the NHL at 18, 19, 20, and just dominate from day 1, putting up all-star stats, most do not.  Not even high picks like this.

 

I'm not asking for domination. That's not likely to come, as others have pointed out, without significant power play time. I'm asking for an even strength production rate better than Jimmy Vesey, or even remotely in line with his peers from his own draft class. That's what's not happening here, more than anything else.

 

Kakko — the target in the OP — has scored 19 goals and 35 ES points in 147 games thus far. 0.24 ES P/GP.

 

By comparison, from his own draft class:

 

Kirby Dach (3): 18 goals, 38 ES points in 118 games. 0.32 ES P/GP.

Dylan Cozens (7): 10 goals, 24 ES points in 73 games. 0.32 ES P/GP.

Trevor Zegras (9): 9 goals, 33 ES points in 57 games. 0.58 ES P/GP.

 

In other words, he's trailing multiple players taken after him from his own class.

 

The last high pick to put up points this disappointing, specifically at evens, was probably Nolan Patrick (57 ES points in 197 games with the Flyers — 0.28 P/GP), who was traded after his disastrous third NHL season. I don't think Kakko is trending this way (and Patrick was constantly hurt), but I'm including this for context.

 

Quote

Also, teams can have different dynamics.  Perhaps the way this particular team plays, the coaches have instructed these kids to focus on things other than scoring?   Maybe this coaching staff feels they can score enough between Fox, Kreider, Panarin, Zib, and Strome as the primary offensive contributors?  Maybe they feel it's best for the team, and for the DEVELOPMENT of these kids at the NHL Level to have them focusing primarily on other parts of their game right now, knowing that when the time comes, these guys can pick up the production? 

 

We know that Quinn instructed Kakko to work on his defensive game. That's something that's probably salvaged his NHL career, and is paying real dividends when you look at the disparity between his horrific numbers playing for Quinn and what he's done thus far for Gallant, but one thing hasn't changed between coaching regimes: he's still not scoring nearly as much as he should be.

 

I agree that some players need extra time to continue to develop, even on the job (in the NHL), but we're more than 200 games into this experiment. "Development" really doesn't belong in this conversation much longer. He's in the final year of his ELC. Once you've signed a second contract, you're not "developing" anymore — you're improving, or you're moving on like Nolan Patrick, Alex Nylander, Logan Brown, Julien Gauthier, etc.

 

Quote

Maybe all you folks criticizing these kids are doing yourself and them a great disservice.

 

Unless you are inside that locker room and listening to the interactions between coaches and players, maybe you should think twice about criticizing when you truly don't understand.

 

If this argument is to be taken seriously, I may as well shut the forum down. The whole point of having it is to have these arguments/discussions despite not being fully in the know. Moreover, to suggest we know nothing is folly. You're correct that we don't understand the full interactions between coaches and players, but that's not the same as the suggestion we know nothing when we can all watch the same games and all read the same statistics.

[Bugg]

3 hours ago, Flynn said:

It's amazing that in back to back drafts the scouting community (not just the Rangers normally drunk scouting staff) have missed the boat on two straight "can't miss" types..  Kakko is about as exciting as slightly burnt piece of plain toast. Ed Sheeran is about as useful as a dick on a chicken.. 

 

As was previously stated.. Damn near all the kids are forgettable.. Miller is crap- I'm not sure he has the physicality to play guard in the NBA let alone top 4 D in the NHL.. Nils is uniform filler at this point.  I sure as hell hope Jones, Schneider and the rest of the guys not yet with the big club are worth a damn or this crop of young talent will have died on the vine.    

A dick on a chick, or a cock on a cock; we report, you decide!

[Pete]

38 minutes ago, Tomas Sandstrom said:

You guys are harsh.

 

First of all, the team is exceeding most, if not all, expectations.   Anyone care to argue with that statement?

Statement is irrelevant to this thread.
 

Quote

Second of all, I GET that we all had super high expectations out of the #1 and #2 picks in back to back drafts.  However, we are still talking about kids here.  While I understand some players hit the NHL at 18, 19, 20, and just dominate from day 1, putting up all-star stats, most do not.  Not even high picks like this.

Do you see anyone asking for domination? Or simply contribution?

Quote

Also, teams can have different dynamics.  Perhaps the way this particular team plays, the coaches have instructed these kids to focus on things other than scoring?   Maybe this coaching staff feels they can score enough between Fox, Kreider, Panarin, Zib, and Strome as the primary offensive contributors?  Maybe they feel it's best for the team, and for the DEVELOPMENT of these kids at the NHL Level to have them focusing primarily on other parts of their game right now, knowing that when the time comes, these guys can pick up the production?

I would question any coach who tells players who have been dynamic offensive players who've dominated at every level to simply abandon all of their hockey instincts that have served them for 15+ years and go learn how to work the boards. Any coach worth his weight is going to live with the mistakes that come with rookie players "going for it" and use those mistakes as teaching moments. You don't try and avoid mistakes by telling them not to be who they are, you use them to mold the young player.

Quote

 Maybe all you folks criticizing these kids are doing yourself and them a great disservice.

 

Unless you are inside that locker room and listening to the interactions between coaches and players, maybe you should think twice about criticizing when you truly don't understand.

So rather than lash out at folks on a forum about all the the things you think we don't understand, I'd invite you to speak about a specific trait, skillset, attribute that you see these players come with (nightly) where we should be encouraged? Don't give me "effort", though. Work ethic is table stakes. Need more.

 

Go ahead, I'll wait.

[The Dude]

Dude says "prospects aren't doing well and are an issue with their lack of production.  

 

Boards respond with:

 

Phil's says "all the prospects fucking suck"

 

Boards respond with

 

Bunch of no good....

Grrrr. Jerks

 

 

 

[Tomas Sandstrom]

I'm saying that the team is WINNING...

 

Why would you mess with what's working, just so these kids can be more productive offensively?  

 

Look, I'm not saying the production is not disappointing.

 

I'm saying that these are 18, 19, 20 year old kids.  Playing on Broadway.  Playing for a winning team.  I just think this criticism is kinda harsh.

 

Let me ask you this...do you NOT think they are deferring offensive responsibilities on this team to guys like Fox, Panarin, Kreider, Zib, and Strome?   Do you not think they are playing more support roles?  As I said, all team dynamics are different.

 

Would love to see these guys step up and be more productive...of course I would!  

 

Seasons have ebbs and flows.  I think maybe they played a certain way and focused on certain things so far this season, because it was working.  Who knows what happens the rest of the year.  Maybe, with this little slump, and lots of days off, things change.  Maybe the Coaching staff want Kakko and Laf to take more of an offensive role moving forward...or maybe their games have grown to the point where the coaches are more willing to allow them to focus on offense more, because they trust that they will be there for their defensive responsibilities.  

 

Just like you guys, I really hope we see it.

 

I just started reading this tread and I was a bit taken aback by how harsh some of you were being...I mean, it's not like we are in 4th place fighting to make the playoffs here.  

 

As a NYR Fan, I think we should all show these kids all the support we can...I think they need it.