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Thread: The U.S. Government is a Mess

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    Quote Originally Posted by josh View Post
    Thinking there is a “right” side is worse. Think you are on the right side is the worst approach to politics anyone could have. As Frank called it, ignorant.
    Thinking you're somehow on a "righter" side by ignoring an obvious fact to reinforce an empirically disproven opinion is an even worse approach to politics. As I called it - far less savory than ignorant. But I suppose this is the world we live in, where everyone is entitled to their own opinions and can hold onto them vociferously in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary, right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by rmc51 View Post
    https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinio...as-ncna1270502

    CNN, all about facts with just some liberal commentary, never ran with this gem did they? LOL

    They are every bit as bad as Fox News. They make shit up all the time.

    Until there's recognition that nobody and no media is actually on the people's side, there's no progress or conversation to be had.
    Hmm....

    https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/trump-photo-op-church-wasn-t-why-lafayette-square-was-ncna1270502

    There's your problem. This isn't pretending to be news, so treating it as such is dishonest.

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    Quote Originally Posted by G1000 View Post
    Hmm....

    https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/trump-photo-op-church-wasn-t-why-lafayette-square-was-ncna1270502

    There's your problem. This isn't pretending to be news, so treating it as such is dishonest.
    https://www.doioig.gov/site-page/sta...port-review-us

    The evidence we reviewed showed that the USPP cleared the park to allow a contractor to safely install antiscale fencing in response to destruction of Federal property and injury to officers that occurred on May 30 and May 31. Moreover, the evidence established that relevant USPP officials had made those decisions and had begun implementing the operational plan several hours before they knew of a potential Presidential visit to the park, which occurred later that day. As such, we determined that the evidence did not support a finding that the USPP cleared the park on June 1, 2020, so that then President Trump could enter the park.
    Is that official enough for you?

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    Quote Originally Posted by rmc51 View Post
    Ah, yes, the "if you're not hard left you must be hard right". Because, obviously, the left is all facts and everyone else is not

    This thread wasn't even made with intent to have some discussion about what's wrong. It was just another spot to rant about Trump, the morally bankrupt Republicans, and all the stuff they get away with, while the moral Democrats' only sin is they are too nice and let them get away with it.
    Yeah, literally nobody thinks this here.

    The choices are "the Republicans" or "the other guys who at least engage in reality with enough consistency to be moderately competent". It's a real goddamn low bar to clear, but it's also a non-negotiable one that the GOP continues to need a Burj Khalifa sized ladder to clear.

    A GOP grounded in reality would be a welcome opposition party. Instead, we've got a party that apparently finds more value in literally spinning up fake narratives to force their beliefs on the rest of us than actually working to win votes, a party that would rather make Americans suffer than hand even a minor victory to the opposition, and a party that finds more joy in cruel legislation against fringe minority groups than actually doing some semblance of good in the world.

    I'd much, much rather have a conservative party that cared to win elections by doing the hart work of winning elections instead of a party that would rather win elections by denying the right to vote, play-acting malicious bullshit to push their agenda, or making giving water to those waiting to vote a misdemeanor than actually working for a vote.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rmc51 View Post
    It's an op-ed. Who cares? It's not news.

    As for the story, it's classic "miss the forest for the trees" nonsense. The issue wasn't that Trump ordered the park cleared for a photo op - "clear out, the president is coming through" is routine stuff. It's that he ordered the use of military tactics to do it. But these sorts of forced outrage pieces are exactly the sort of nonsense we use to justify opinions like "but they both do it" when to get to that conclusion we need to ignore the vast gulfs that clearly exist - in this case, misrepresenting the reason for the outrage to create a false equivalence.

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    CNN: My opinion on why water is wet is...

    Fox: I'm going to tell you why water is really dry, and the liberal fake news media is lying to you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 4EverRangerFrank View Post
    What is next? On one hand, we have to have accountability and those doing harm to our democracy must pay a price. On the other, we have survived beyond this immediate transgression and we can simply 'move on.' What is right anymore? Which way do we go?
    ^The point of posting this thread to begin with.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    CNN: My opinion on why water is wet is...

    Fox: I'm going to tell you why water is really dry, and the liberal fake news media is lying to you.
    OANN/Newsmax:

    Dihydrogen monoxide is colorless, odorless, tasteless, and kills uncounted thousands of people every year. Most of these deaths are caused by accidental inhalation of DHMO, but the dangers of dihydrogen monoxide do not end there. Prolonged exposure to its solid form causes severe tissue damage. Symptoms of DHMO ingestion can include excessive sweating and urination, and possibly a bloated feeling, nausea, vomiting and body electrolyte imbalance. For those who have become dependent, DHMO withdrawal means certain death.

    The American government has refused to ban the production, distribution, or use of this damaging chemical due to its "importance to the economic health of this nation." In fact, the navy and other military organizations are conducting experiments with DHMO, and designing multi-billion dollar devices to control and utilize it during warfare situations. Hundreds of military research facilities receive tons of it through a highly sophisticated underground distribution network. Many store large quantities for later use.
    https://www.lockhaven.edu/~dsimanek/dhmo.htm

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    Looking around at my fellow Americans, my head is going to explode.

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    Quote Originally Posted by G1000 View Post
    Yeah, literally nobody thinks this here.

    The choices are "the Republicans" or "the other guys who at least engage in reality with enough consistency to be moderately competent". It's a real goddamn low bar to clear, but it's also a non-negotiable one that the GOP continues to need a Burj Khalifa sized ladder to clear.

    A GOP grounded in reality would be a welcome opposition party. Instead, we've got a party that apparently finds more value in literally spinning up fake narratives to force their beliefs on the rest of us than actually working to win votes, a party that would rather make Americans suffer than hand even a minor victory to the opposition, and a party that finds more joy in cruel legislation against fringe minority groups than actually doing some semblance of good in the world.

    I'd much, much rather have a conservative party that cared to win elections by doing the hart work of winning elections instead of a party that would rather win elections by denying the right to vote, play-acting malicious bullshit to push their agenda, or making giving water to those waiting to vote a misdemeanor than actually working for a vote.
    I hate to say it, but right now, this describes both parties. Neither party wants to work with each other, they only care about that victory red or blue gets, and screw over the people. Both work off of fear and scaring their followers. Its actually disgusting the way that they both act, but the problem is that only 1 side gets called out. They are both just as bad and both follow the conquer and divide method. Both sides look to blame the other while we all suffer. This country is Ian a bad place right now, and its only getting worse.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NYR2711 View Post
    I hate to say it, but right now, this describes both parties. Neither party wants to work with each other, they only care about that victory red or blue gets, and screw over the people. Both work off of fear and scaring their followers. Its actually disgusting the way that they both act, but the problem is that only 1 side gets called out. They are both just as bad and both follow the conquer and divide method. Both sides look to blame the other while we all suffer. This country is Ian a bad place right now, and its only getting worse.
    With all due respect - how so? Are the Democrats spinning up fake narratives like "giant stolen election" to pass voter rights bills - or worse yet, manufacturing further crises? Are they misleading the public when they cite literal piles of scientific analysis and studies to back up the efficacy and popularity of their healthcare proposals? Are they mindlessly legislating against white cisgender people to virtue signal to genderfluid feminists? Have they ignored science to the absolute detriment of our country? Are Democrats passing laws to limit constitutional rights?

    If none of those things are true - I'll spoil it, these are all rhetorical questions with different answers for each party - then we have to reject your "this describes both sides" argument. It may have been true when you were a kid, but it couldn't be further from the truth now, and the sooner we reject the idea that it's all the same, the sooner we can get to actually fixing the real problems this country has.

    The Democrats are not without blame - their crime is sitting idly by allowing all of this to happen for fear of the electoral consequences of what amounts to "doing the right thing and protecting the constitution", but jeez, there's no scale on the planet that can counterbalance the two parties and call them equal here.
    Last edited by G1000; 06-14-2021 at 10:56 AM.

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    As always, this is an issue of degree. We're likely, as we tend to do, arguing past one another by making two very distinct, but different claims. "Both sides" as I've explained in the past, paints each party as equally guilty of a behavior as well as the severity of it — the latter of which is demonstrably false.

    Both parties are guilty of fostering divisive partisanship, virtue signaling, and identity politics, to name a few transgressions, but they're not even close to equally guilty in the severity of outcome. Only one party is publicly engaging with anti-democratic legislation and using the tactics of fascism and authoritarianism to push their agenda forward.

    Complain all you like about the "liberal" media and "bias" by linking to opinion pieces (not news) that get some specific narrative wrong that makes Trump look bad. That pales in comparison in every way to literally restricting voting rights around the country in defense of the Big Lie. A negative Trump story makes him look bad for a news cycle. Voter suppression erodes the democratic republic. They do not compare.
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    Quote Originally Posted by G1000 View Post
    With all due respect - how so? Are the Democrats spinning up fake narratives like "giant stolen election" to pass voter rights bills - or worse yet, manufacturing further crises? Are they misleading the public when they cite literal piles of scientific analysis and studies to back up the efficacy and popularity of their healthcare proposals? Are they mindlessly legislating against white cisgender people to virtue signal to genderfluid feminists? Have they ignored science to the absolute detriment of our country? Are Democrats passing laws to limit constitutional rights?

    If none of those things are true - I'll spoil it, these are all rhetorical questions with different answers for each party - then we have to reject your "this describes both sides" argument. It may have been true when you were a kid, but it couldn't be further from the truth now, and the sooner we reject the idea that it's all the same, the sooner we can get to actually fixing the real problems this country has.

    The Democrats are not without blame - their crime is sitting idly by allowing all of this to happen for fear of the electoral consequences of what amounts to "doing the right thing and protecting the constitution", but jeez, there's no scale on the planet that can counterbalance the two parties and call them equal here.
    They are dividing people in this country, pitting us against each other. That far outweighs anything you posted. As for going after constitutional rights, cancel culture is very relevant right now. Crime is through the roof in this country. Simply passing laws making it harder for law abiding people to get guns and still doing nothing about the people who have guns illegally. The border issues have gotten way out of hand. If you can’t see that this country is in a mess, and all you actually care about is what you mentioned, your proving that this is the problem. If you can’t see how bad both sides are, then I don’t know what to tell you, you’ve been blinded by the left.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil in Absentia View Post
    As always, this is an issue of degree. We're likely, as we tend to do, arguing past one another by making two very distinct, but different claims. "Both sides" as I've explained in the past, paints each party as equally guilty of a behavior as well as the severity of it — the latter of which is demonstrably false.

    Both parties are guilty of fostering divisive partisanship, virtue signaling, and identity politics, to name a few transgressions, but they're not even close to equally guilty in the severity of outcome. Only one party is publicly engaging with anti-democratic legislation and using the tactics of fascism and authoritarianism to push their agenda forward.

    Complain all you like about the "liberal" media and "bias" by linking to opinion pieces (not news) that get some specific narrative wrong that makes Trump look bad. That pales in comparison in every way to literally restricting voting rights around the country in defense of the Big Lie. A negative Trump story makes him look bad for a news cycle. Voter suppression erodes the democratic republic. They do not compare.
    So because of the voter bills being passed, that is why you don’t think the left is bad? There is a lot more issues than that. Cancel culture is a huge problem in this country. The crime rate in this country and the laws passed by Democrats favoring criminals are a huge issue. Talk about lying in the media, look and NYC. The Democrats running it are saying that the subways are safe and there is no crime there. Shootings in NYC, which has some of the strictest gun laws, is out of control. Look at the primaries and what are they all talking about? Taking money from the cops and not doing anything about the real problems in this city. It’s a revolving door for criminals because they are arrested and then released to just do the same crime over and over again, knowing they are getting a slap on the wrist and will be out by dinner.

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    Read what I wrote. I was quite clear what I think. Both parties are guilty of bad behavior. Both parties are not equally guilty of what that behavior does. I've used this analogy in the past and I'll use it again: punching someone in the nose and stabbing them in the stomach are both assault. Both are crimes. Both should be punished. One of the two is much more likely to result in death, and as such, should be punished more harshly.

    Cancel culture isn't reserved for the left, either. Both parties engage in it fully. Trump was one of the worst aggressors, in fact. He single-handedly tried to cancel Goodyear, the Oscars/awards shows, the NFL, the NBA, entire news organizations, Twitter, Macy's, Harley Davidson, Oreos, and a laundry list of individual politicians, both in his party and outside of it, who he ran afoul with.

    If you would like to debate the merits of crime in NYC, we can do that in a dedicated thread. I don't want to derail this one with a granular focus on something that's doesn't deal with the more broad discussion being had right now.
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    Quote Originally Posted by rmc51 View Post
    Ah, yes, the "if you're not hard left you must be hard right". Because, obviously, the left is all facts and everyone else is not
    Part of the problem is this French Revolution fossil that places the entire political spectrum on a left to right axis which is not only wholly inaccurate, but also misses a substantial portion if not the majority of the electorate. People rightly point out that this left right axis is probably more like a horseshoe shape in that when you go far enough right you jump over to the far left which is more accurately what "alt-right" is - jumping the horseshoe. Far left extremists have infinitely more in common with fascists and totalitarianism than conservatives, which have the most in common with liberals.

    The woke cultists are running the show now and there are more and more liberals having to identify as politically homeless

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    I wholly subscribe to the horseshoe theory as well.

    For those unaware, here's the simplified example:

    "Everyone says you should be a good loser. If you're a good loser, you're a loser."
    - John Tortorella


    "Never be a spectator of unfairness or stupidity. Seek out argument and disputation for their own sake; the grave will supply plenty of time for silence."
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    [bold emphasis added]
    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    Of course you can find inaccuracies in reporting on CNN and Fox News...But the sheer volume and absurdity of the lying on Fox is so flagrant that I can't see how any reasonable person can look at both Don Lemmon AND Hannity and say "These are just different sides of the same coin". They're not.
    Quote Originally Posted by Phil in Absentia View Post
    Both parties are guilty of fostering divisive partisanship, virtue signaling, and identity politics, to name a few transgressions, but they're not even close to equally guilty in the severity of outcome. Only one party is publicly engaging with anti-democratic legislation and using the tactics of fascism and authoritarianism to push their agenda forward.

    Complain all you like about the "liberal" media and "bias" by linking to opinion pieces (not news) that get some specific narrative wrong that makes Trump look bad. That pales in comparison in every way to literally restricting voting rights around the country in defense of the Big Lie. A negative Trump story makes him look bad for a news cycle. Voter suppression erodes the democratic republic. They do not compare.
    I believe this country will eventually split apart, if not officially than in practice. I think balkanization has already started, and people are self sorting each other into much darker blue states and red states. The opinions stated above are a clear demonstration that we live in completely alternative realities, and it is stark. The gaslighting that goes on regarding untruths being predominant on the right when the left has fallen completely off the cliff is really something to behold, something Orwell would have written about.

    Then you have statements above that the conservatives are being authoritarian and totalitarian while the left is being authoritatian and totalitarian. We had a year of violent riots and looting, and with one single riot on 1/6 of fringe wackos storming the Capital, the entire side is demonized according to Hitler's Mein Kampf (the "Big Lie") and pundits demand conservatives be purged from society.

    You say with a straight face and righteous indignation that the right is "literally" restricting voting rights when in reality no rights whatsoever are being or will be restricted. Every eligible citizen from A to Z may still vote, and the rules are clear for everyone. The right has not been taken away

    Alternate reality, there is no bridging this gap

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    Quote Originally Posted by NYR2711 View Post
    They are dividing people in this country, pitting us against each other. That far outweighs anything you posted. As for going after constitutional rights, cancel culture is very relevant right now. Crime is through the roof in this country. Simply passing laws making it harder for law abiding people to get guns and still doing nothing about the people who have guns illegally. The border issues have gotten way out of hand. If you can’t see that this country is in a mess, and all you actually care about is what you mentioned, your proving that this is the problem. If you can’t see how bad both sides are, then I don’t know what to tell you, you’ve been blinded by the left.
    Just to be clear - the right to health, free speech, and voting - Constitutionally guaranteed rights that are literally the foundation of American democracy - are outweighed entirely by "...but both sides" when you have - quite conveniently, might I add - completely avoided an indictment of one side?

    Then you called into question three issues - cancel culture - which is a "both sides" issue that only one side has codified into law (thanks, Ron DeSantis), gun violence (an issue with endless eminent solutions but no action), and a rising crime rate we actually don't understand the root causes of and is coincidental with a pandemic that has fundamentally changed social norms we'd otherwise rely on as if any of this is somehow a justification for your stance. And then, just because you absolutely have to be partisan, you go on to tell me I don't care about any of this and therefore must be blinded by the left?

    This isn't a response. It's a misdirection, so let me return the conversation to its roots - how are these two sides equally to blame for the inaction in Washington and the divisions in our country?

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    Quote Originally Posted by GordonGecko View Post
    [bold emphasis added]




    I believe this country will eventually split apart, if not officially than in practice. I think balkanization has already started, and people are self sorting each other into much darker blue states and red states. The opinions stated above are a clear demonstration that we live in completely alternative realities, and it is stark. The gaslighting that goes on regarding untruths being predominant on the right when the left has fallen completely off the cliff is really something to behold, something Orwell would have written about.

    Then you have statements above that the conservatives are being authoritarian and totalitarian while the left is being authoritatian and totalitarian. We had a year of violent riots and looting, and with one single riot on 1/6 of fringe wackos storming the Capital, the entire side is demonized according to Hitler's Mein Kampf (the "Big Lie") and pundits demand conservatives be purged from society.

    You say with a straight face and righteous indignation that the right is "literally" restricting voting rights when in reality no rights whatsoever are being or will be restricted. Every eligible citizen from A to Z may still vote, and the rules are clear for everyone. The right has not been taken away

    Alternate reality, there is no bridging this gap
    Yes, because it's actually provable.

    Prove the left has fallen off a cliff. Relative to what? In what way? From what? How so?

    Prove the right has authoritarian and totalitarian tendencies? Ah - well, authoritarian has a clear descriptor. It's got a definition. And the behavior - the consolidation of power into a single strongman, the constant need to appear infallible, the restriction of protest, voting, and speech? All there - not just in theory as you'd allege the left does (because I know you will!), but in codified law in numerous GOP-led states. What's also of note is that because these words have actual meanings, we can apply the same logic to the left and see that it just doesn't apply.

    As for the right "literally" restricting the right to vote? The right may not have been explicitly taken away, but the quiet part is pretty damn loud. Let's ignore the fact that the right invented an entire narrative that will cost their media organizations billions in libel/slander payments specifically for the purposes of making these laws happen and let me ask you directly: What is the net effect of reducing the number of places to vote securely? I'd imagine that fewer people will vote, and the lines will get longer. Now, let's shorten the amount of time people have to vote in the day. Let's reduce the number of days of early voting. Let's also make it so that poll workers can't hand out food or water, and reduce the poll staff. This isn't conjecture - this is lifted from actual laws that passed in GOP-led Florida and Georgia. There are 440+ similar bills being passed around state legislatures by GOP state reps and senators.

    Is the net effect that more people can vote? Is the expectation in a free and fair democracy that the average citizen should forfeit time and money to vote? Is this moral? Ethical? Democratic?

    Regardless of what you think - the net effect of these laws is clear - fewer people voting. Which, last I checked, isn't very representative democracy.

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