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Thread: Why Did the Rangers Do A Half-Measure in Firing AV, but Keep Gorton?

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    Senior Member Bantam Division rangers02's Avatar
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    Why Did the Rangers Do A Half-Measure in Firing AV, but Keep Gorton?

    I'm starting to take a more in-depth look as to why the Rangers kept the GM, yet fired AV in the early months of 2018.

    I agree with the sentiment of this forum: changes needed to be made with the coach, the Rangers had frustrating playoff losses during AV's tenure and he made his own questionable in-game decisions.

    But if this team was going into a full rebuild, we needed to strip it down and do it right: trade players of the old core to get significant futures, cleaning house with the Head Coach AND GM.

    We did 1 and 2, not 3

    1. Trade players of the old core for picks and prospects (TBL trade).
    2. Fired the Coach
    3. Did not get rid of the GM.

    A similar case study of the HC-GM half-measures would be the early 2000s New York Mets (Mets fans, remind me if you've heard this before)

    The 2000s Mets were similar to the AV Rangers: both teams had frustrating playoff losses and needed a shake-up with the Manager. But Wilpon didn't fire Steve Phillips in order to bring them to a proper rebuild. Look where that move got them in their next manager.

    Apparently, Dolan and Sather took a page out of Fred Wilpon's playbook by doing a half-measure through keeping the GM.

    In bringing back Gorton, guess who he hired as HC: a man who did have coaching experience, except he was a coach in the AHL and NCAA and was only an assistant in the NHL with the Avalance. Look at Keirik's post in the GDT for last night's game against Philadelphia on page 16, regarding the turnaround of the Avs after Quinn was given the pink slip as their assistant.
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    Didn't the GM fire the coach? JD would have to decide to fire Gorton. Honestly, Gorton's done some great work.
    -The Brassard for Zibanejad trade
    -The Rick Nash trade (got us Lindgren and Spooner)
    -The Spooner for Strome trade
    -Signed Panarin
    -The Adam Fox trade
    -Drafting Kravtsov, Miller, Lundqvist, Chytil, Lafreniere, Kakko, Jones, Chytil amongst others

    He's certainly had some whiffs as well
    -McDonagh/Miller only netted us Hajek, Howden, Namestnikov so far but Nils Lundqvist and Karl Henriksson draft picks. That one is TBD
    -Eric Staal was a swing and a miss, though the prospect and two picks we traded have 9 games on NHL experience between the three of them
    -Jacob Trouba's contract is an issue for down the road, but losing Pionk is not the end of the world and Ville Heinola hasn't done much for WPG yet
    -Signing Shattenkirk really blew up in our face, but the buyout will be mostly through by next season
    -Drafting Andersson really stings
    Last edited by Xander; 04-23-2021 at 11:47 AM.

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    It was the gmís idea to rebuild and he hasnít been perfect but has done a pretty decent job


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    He had been groomed to take the position for years.

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    What would have firing Gorton accomplished at the time? Gorton and other members of management identified that the team was no longer in a place of contention and began the rebuild with the notorious letter. Vigneault wasn't aligned with the team's direction, and was combative with regards to his performance and where the team should be going.

    The successes and failures of the 2010s Rangers and their Cup run aren't really on Gorton. They're a combination of moves largely fueled by Sather who passed the reigns on past their point of chief success. So is your point that Gorton should've been fired three years into his tenure because he didn't get a worn-down team on bad contracts handed out by his predecessor to succeed? Knowing how the NHL works, I don't see how that makes sense. Especially when comparing it to baseball which is managed in an almost entirely different way because of contract structure, roster management, etc.

    David Quinn spent a season as an assistant coach for the Avs. They went through four years and another head coach until they actually found any stability and consistently made the playoffs. Was Quinn still responsible for those seasons they missed after his tenure? I'm sorry but that's a lame argument.

    Firing Gorton with AV would've made no sense.

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    Gorton is a tough one because he was handed a few key players like Panarin taking less to play here, Fox saying he only wanted to play here, and Trouba the same but then overpaid for him.

    He did an idiotic thing by taking out an add in the paper to say he’s selling players then got destroyed in a disastrous trade with Tampa but did some masterful jobs of acquiring Mika and Strome and unloading Nash and Skjei.

    Overall I’m not sure there is too much different I’d wish for, and I do think he has benefited from some fortunate circumstances outside of his control but still.

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    Senior Member Bantam Division rangers02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    Didn't the GM fire the coach? JD would have to decide to fire Gorton. Honestly, Gorton's done some great work.
    -The Brassard and Zibanejad trade
    -The Rick Nash trade (got us Lindgren and Spooner)
    -The Spooner and Strome trade
    -Signed Panarin
    -The Adam Fox trade
    -Drafting Kravtsov, Miller, Lundqvist, Chytil, Lafreniere, Kakko, Jones, Chytil amongst others

    He's certainly had some whiffs as well
    -McDonagh/Miller only netted us Hajek, Howden, Namestnikov so far but Nils Lundqvist and Karl Henriksson draft picks. That one is TBD
    -Eric Staal was a swing and a miss, though the prospect and two picks we traded have 9 games on NHL experience between the three of them
    -Jacob Trouba's contract is an issue for down the road, but losing Pionk is not the end of the world and Ville Heinola hasn't done much for WPG yet
    -Signing Shattenkirk really blew up in our face, but the buyout will be mostly through by next season
    -Drafting Andersson really stings
    Gorton is an enigma, to put it simply. He can make solid trades (Fox) and draft picks (Kravtsov, K'Andre Miller), yet sign UFAs like Shattenkirk that have to be bought out in a few years.

    Right now we have plenty of cap space, but it all depends on what we do with it on July 1st.
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    Gorton is a very average GM, but he wasn't fired because the end of AV's run was the end of the Rangers' window. They were going into a rebuild the GM initiated. Why would he have been fired then?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keirik View Post
    He did an idiotic thing by taking out an add in the paper to say he’s selling players
    That's not at all what that was. The letter communicated to fans the intentions of an ownership that typically pushed competitiveness above all else. It had zero effect on Gorton's ability to sell players. You don't think GMs are in communication about that kind of information already? It's not some secret operation.

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    Senior Member Bantam Division rangers02's Avatar
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    A better question for this thread would be: If you were Gorton, who would you have hired as head coach of the New York Rangers?

    Because I do agree, changes needed to be made with the note (from management, not the front office, in only had Gorton's name on the note), but it was who Gorton hired as HC that had me perplexed.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drew a Penalty View Post
    That's not at all what that was. The letter communicated to fans the intentions of an ownership that typically pushed competitiveness above all else. It had zero effect on Gorton's ability to sell players. You don't think GMs are in communication about that kind of information already? It's not some secret operation.
    How many teams have you ever see do that especially before unloading pieces? It was a dumb thing to do. There is zero way of knowing it had no effect on his trade positions. Most GMs won't even tell the public is one player we all know is going to be traded is on the block let alone an entire team. I prefer the Lou Lamorello way of saying nothing and letting the results speak for your intentions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rangers02 View Post
    A better question for this thread would be: If you were Gorton, who would you have hired as head coach of the New York Rangers?

    Because I do agree, changes needed to be made with the note (from management, not the front office, in only had Gorton's name on the note), but it was who Gorton hired as HC that had me perplexed.
    I don’t see why a retrospective of “who should we have hired” matters so much. We have no idea how that would have played out or how that would influence the assets the Rangers currently have. Do you still end up with Kakko and Lafreniere? Are the roster players the same? I just don’t see the importance of the question because it doesn’t change anything. We’re all just lamenting at that point.

    The most important thing is where do we go from Quinn not what should we have done instead of him. He’s here and he’s made his mark. Can’t change that. Can change what happens next.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Keirik View Post
    How many teams have you ever see do that especially before unloading pieces? It was a dumb thing to do. There is zero way of knowing it had no effect on his trade positions. Most GMs won't even tell the public is one player we all know is going to be traded is on the block let alone an entire team. I prefer the Lou Lamorello way of saying nothing and letting the results speak for your intentions.
    Most teams also donít have the capital that the Rangers are notorious for so they can avoid having to ďadmit defeatĒ to the fans. What the Rangers did was largely unprecedented as a franchise. Again, do you seriously think that GMs are getting information about other teams through periodicals? Theyíre not. He didnít show his cards by waving his flag.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ozzy View Post
    Is there any way I can kidnap Joel Quenneville and drag him up to NY???
    It's not personal, it's strictly business

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    Quote Originally Posted by rangers02 View Post
    Gorton is an enigma, to put it simply. He can make solid trades (Fox) and draft picks (Kravtsov, K'Andre Miller), yet sign UFAs like Shattenkirk that have to be bought out in a few years.

    Right now we have plenty of cap space, but it all depends on what we do with it on July 1st.
    Shattenkirk ended up being 'no harm no foul' after buying him out. His buyout salary didn't cause us to lose any players or picks. If anything he identified an opportunity to get out of it instead of being saddled with a player who didn't fit here.

    If we do anything major or consequential on July 1st like sign a big name for long term at crazy AAV, then I'd question his decision making. Nothing he's done badly has had lasting harm yet. The only potential for that right now is Trouba.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rangers02 View Post
    A better question for this thread would be: If you were Gorton, who would you have hired as head coach of the New York Rangers?

    Because I do agree, changes needed to be made with the note (from management, not the front office, in only had Gorton's name on the note), but it was who Gorton hired as HC that had me perplexed.
    I don't see how we'd be any further than we are now with a different coach than Quinn. But I also don't think Quinn will take us to the step after this once we've accumulated and developed all of this top talent.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drew a Penalty View Post
    Most teams also don’t have the capital that the Rangers are notorious for so they can avoid having to “admit defeat” to the fans. What the Rangers did was largely unprecedented as a franchise. Again, do you seriously think that GMs are getting information about other teams through periodicals? They’re not. He didn’t show his cards by waving his flag.
    Drew, i think we both know the difference between a periodical and literally putting out an entire letter straight from the GM and President of the club to the public less than 3 weeks before the trade deadline. I think the Blackhawks did it recently in the OFFSEASON but that's about it. And two weeks after that letter we got hosed in the Tampa trade, part of the trade not even making sense since we traded our 28 year old captain and a 24 year old JT Miller in a rebuild. McD I sort of understand since i think he was up for a contract and they wrongly thought he was seconds from breaking down but Miller made no sense.

    Hell, we did better in the Nash trade and he was a shell of himself at the time. But that's hindsight.

    There really is no way to know if it helped/hurted/had no effect but that trade was horrible. We had targeted Sergachev in that trade and came away with wtf.

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    Boat's still out on the McDonagh trade until we see Nils Lundqvist.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Keirik View Post
    Drew, i think we both know the difference between a periodical and literally putting out an entire letter straight from the GM and President of the club to the public less than 3 weeks before the trade deadline. I think the Blackhawks did it recently in the OFFSEASON but that's about it. And two weeks after that letter we got hosed in the Tampa trade, part of the trade not even making sense since we traded our 28 year old captain and a 24 year old JT Miller in a rebuild. McD I sort of understand since i think he was up for a contract and they wrongly thought he was seconds from breaking down but Miller made no sense.

    Hell, we did better in the Nash trade and he was a shell of himself at the time. But that's hindsight.

    There really is no way to know if it helped/hurted/had no effect but that trade was horrible. We had targeted Sergachev in that trade and came away with wtf.
    Your complaint is chiefly with the Tampa trade. Not the Nash trade. Or the Holden trade. Or the Grabner trade.

    I don't remotely see how the letter affected the McDonagh trade. Teams would've known who was on the block. How would a team have had any leverage over the Rangers? They didn't have to trade McDonagh then. They chose to. There was a Zuccarello trade materializing at the same time that fell through because McDonagh's advanced further and they had a deadline. The Rangers added Miller because they developed some kind of infatuation with Hajek whom they absolutely felt they needed to have. The letter isn't the reason they didn't get Sergachev. The reason they didn't get Sergachev is that he was likely nowhere near the table. And the Rangers didn't seem to care evidently because they included a roster player in Miller just to ensure they would get Hajek. That's just bad asset management and scouting that results in Howden and Hajek being the centerpiece prospects for your top defenseman. Evidently, they felt Hajek wasn't too far a step-down from Sergachev if they were easily willing to add to acquire him.

    None of that has to do with the letter. The letter didn't stop them from getting a 2nd and Rykov for Grabner. Nor Rob O'Gara and a 3rd for Holden. Nor Ryan Spooner, Matt Beleskey, Ryan Lindgren, a 1st and a 7th for Rick Nash.

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