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Thread: Congress Passes Biden's American Rescue Plan Relief Bill (Mod Note in OP)

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    Congress Passes Biden's American Rescue Plan Relief Bill (Mod Note in OP)

    Mod Note:

    This topic/conversation is being broken out from the H.R.1 thread. Please use it to discuss relevant aspects of the Biden American Rescue Plan.

    Thanks.
    --

    Quote Originally Posted by 4EverRangerFrank View Post
    Capt with all due respect, and following Trump’s total and unapologetic disregard for democracy it’s time for Dems to bend every Rep over and use no lube. Not a drop.

    You keep mentioning ‘compromising’ but that is the 180-degree opposite of the last administration.

    Sorry, I’m in “take no GOP prisoners” mode for at least 2 of the next 4 years.

    Not 1 GOP m’fer voted for the Biden COVID relief bill. But they all voted for a tax break for the 1%. Plain as day.
    Well the bill was for 1.9 trillion dollars and only about 20% is actually going to the people. Who can blame them? The Democrats always want to spend gobs of money they don't have. It's a flaw in their fiscal approach. The Republicans do it too, but a lesser scale.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rmc51 View Post
    Well the bill was for 1.9 trillion dollars and only about 20% is actually going to the people. Who can blame them? The Democrats always want to spend gobs of money they don't have. It's a flaw in their fiscal approach. The Republicans do it too, but a lesser scale.
    LOL, what? $424 billion in direct checks. $350 billion to state and local aid to prevent layoffs. $246 billion to unemployment benefits. $109 billion in child tax credits. All of which go directly to the people (who need it). I'm no math whiz, but just over $1.1 trillion seems like more than 20% of a $1.9 trillion bill to me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil in Absentia View Post
    LOL, what? $424 billion in direct checks. $350 billion to state and local aid to prevent layoffs. $246 billion to unemployment benefits. $109 billion in child tax credits. All of which go directly to the people (who need it). I'm no math whiz, but just over $1.1 trillion seems like more than 20% of a $1.9 trillion bill to me.
    424 billion directly to the people, out of 1.9 trillion, is 22%.

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    Guys, take the ARP talk to another thread.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rmc51 View Post
    424 billion directly to the people, out of 1.9 trillion, is 22%.
    Yes, in direct checks. Why are you categorizing funds to state and local aid to prevent layoffs (peoples jobs), unemployment benefits (keeping people alive), and child tax credits (kids lives) as suddenly not for the people? Who is that money for if not the people, who clearly need it?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil in Absentia View Post
    Yes, in direct checks. Why are you categorizing funds to state and local aid to prevent layoffs (peoples jobs), unemployment benefits (keeping people alive), and child tax credits (kids lives) as suddenly not for the people? Who is that money for if not the people, who clearly need it?
    Money to cities and states that cannot keep their own house in order. No money should be sent to any of those places until they balance their budget. DeBlasio, Lightfoot, etc. were running their cities into the ground ling before Covid. Bailing out their irresponsible leadership is not on the rest of the country. If NYC residents want to vote for far left mayors who care nothing about financial order than they should face the consequences of their votes. Not be bailed out with the excuse of the pandemic.

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    I can only speak for NY since I work closely with 25% of the counties. The sales tax revenue has plummeted. Property tax collection is lower. Those are two of the largest funders of county and local government outside of direct state (via federal) money. Counties have furloughed workers in big numbers like 10-40% of non-essential workers. Capital improvement projects postponed. These governments are fragile financial systems that have to zero-out every fiscal year meaning that your department budget is 'use it, or lose it' and there is no provision for 'saving' money for next year, not at the granular level. The notion that DEM states are squandering money or are mis-managed or to any measurable degree worse than a GOP lead states is preposterous. All states and all local governments desperately need money much of which goes to pay workers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Capt View Post
    Money to cities and states that cannot keep their own house in order. No money should be sent to any of those places until they balance their budget. DeBlasio, Lightfoot, etc. were running their cities into the ground ling before Covid. Bailing out their irresponsible leadership is not on the rest of the country. If NYC residents want to vote for far left mayors who care nothing about financial order than they should face the consequences of their votes. Not be bailed out with the excuse of the pandemic.
    I think the argument you and others are making is that for bigger cities with large populations, you do not agree with the social safety-net styled programs those municipalities value. Let's just say I agree with you that large cities are fiscally challenged by this, would it not then move the spotlight over to the federal government NOT providing enough assistance for these economically challenging areas? Homelessness or working poor total big numbers in these cities and it's costly to run programs trying to help. In smaller cities or in parts of the country where there are relatively fewer homeless people, wouldn't it stand to reason that the costs, locally, are lower and more maneageable?

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    Quote Originally Posted by 4EverRangerFrank View Post
    I can only speak for NY since I work closely with 25% of the counties. The sales tax revenue has plummeted. Property tax collection is lower. Those are two of the largest funders of county and local government outside of direct state (via federal) money. Counties have furloughed workers in big numbers like 10-40% of non-essential workers. Capital improvement projects postponed. These governments are fragile financial systems that have to zero-out every fiscal year meaning that your department budget is 'use it, or lose it' and there is no provision for 'saving' money for next year, not at the granular level. The notion that DEM states are squandering money or are mis-managed or to any measurable degree worse than a GOP lead states is preposterous. All states and all local governments desperately need money much of which goes to pay workers.
    Not to mention that most states viewed as "good" at balancing their budgets also take a FUCKTON from the federal government. After all, how do you think Texas and Florida maintain their zero-state-tax worlds? Magic? How do you think Kentucky, Tennessee, Louisiana, and Mississippi maintain such low minimum wage laws? They take. A lot. We spend nearly 1000x the federal aid per capita for some of these states as we do California.

    There's a couple different ways to cut it (federal aid, total federal spending, etc), but almost unilaterally, the thing you see is that per-capita federal dollars per state is heavily correlated with "being a red state", high poverty rates, large indigenous populations, and low wages, with the very notable exceptions of Virginia and Maryland if you consider defense contracting a federal spend (there's also a "shadow" corollary that WalMart is the largest private employer in many "taker" states, but let's not head too far down that path here). New Jersey is particularly hard-hit here - the net spend per resident is literally "they give 2400 to the government" for Kentucky to keep wages suppressed. Put another way, it takes four NJ taxpayers to support one Kentucky taxpayer.

    The idea that providing stimulus and pandemic support somehow ends up as a blue city mismanagement bailout is laughable. Blue states will get more of the money, sure, but that's strictly because blue states have more people.
    Last edited by G1000; 03-10-2021 at 11:43 AM.

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    To me, the calculation for stimulus is simple. The ideal would be very targeted relief just to those who need it. Finding that ideal is impossible in a closely divided Congress, where both sides have very different ideas as to who needs help, how much they need, and what the limitations there should be. Could it be better targeted? Of course it could. However, in said Congress, that process of targeting would take months at best.

    To use an analogy, a team of doctors (Congress) comes upon a 100 car pileup. They can spread out and immediately provide aid to everyone they can get to as quickly as possible, or they can spend a month trying to determine the optimal course of assessing who needs medical attention, how much attention, and in what order. While they do that, those most in need of aid will suffer. Instead, if they get to work right away they will no doubt spend resources helping those who don't need aid or immediate help, but they will also be able to guarantee immediate aid to those who do need it.

    Since the resources through deficit spending is available to Congress right now and the help needed by so many who are not easily targeted for relief so great, this seems like a no brainer to me.

    We can go back later and see if there's a better way to target relief during an emergency in the future after we've helped those in need now, even if it means a good amount of waste in the interim.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AmericanJesus View Post
    To me, the calculation for stimulus is simple. The ideal would be very targeted relief just to those who need it. Finding that ideal is impossible in a closely divided Congress, where both sides have very different ideas as to who needs help, how much they need, and what the limitations there should be. Could it be better targeted? Of course it could. However, in said Congress, that process of targeting would take months at best.

    To use an analogy, a team of doctors (Congress) comes upon a 100 car pileup. They can spread out and immediately provide aid to everyone they can get to as quickly as possible, or they can spend a month trying to determine the optimal course of assessing who needs medical attention, how much attention, and in what order. While they do that, those most in need of aid will suffer. Instead, if they get to work right away they will no doubt spend resources helping those who don't need aid or immediate help, but they will also be able to guarantee immediate aid to those who do need it.

    Since the resources through deficit spending is available to Congress right now and the help needed by so many who are not easily targeted for relief so great, this seems like a no brainer to me.

    We can go back later and see if there's a better way to target relief during an emergency in the future after we've helped those in need now, even if it means a good amount of waste in the interim.
    Correct — it's why you've seen variations of the phrase "it's more harmful to go too little than too big," being used for months by Congressional Dems and strategists. The cost of going too low — triage, effectively — means certain suffering and death for some cross section of Americans. The cost of going too high — increased national debt — is a calculated risk they're willing to take to save as many lives as possible now.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil in Absentia View Post
    LOL, what? $424 billion in direct checks. $350 billion to state and local aid to prevent layoffs. $246 billion to unemployment benefits. $109 billion in child tax credits. All of which go directly to the people (who need it). I'm no math whiz, but just over $1.1 trillion seems like more than 20% of a $1.9 trillion bill to me.
    I was just about to do this math.
    Thank you


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    Quote Originally Posted by Puck Head View Post
    I was just about to do this math.
    Thank you


    Sent from my iPhone using Blueshirts Brotherhood mobile app powered by Tapatalk
    Using the Congressional Budget Office and Cap Action, Crooked Media did a literal pie chart to break this down here: https://www.instagram.com/p/CMOJyN6DZFE/
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    Quote Originally Posted by AmericanJesus View Post
    To me, the calculation for stimulus is simple. The ideal would be very targeted relief just to those who need it. Finding that ideal is impossible in a closely divided Congress, where both sides have very different ideas as to who needs help, how much they need, and what the limitations there should be. Could it be better targeted? Of course it could. However, in said Congress, that process of targeting would take months at best.

    To use an analogy, a team of doctors (Congress) comes upon a 100 car pileup. They can spread out and immediately provide aid to everyone they can get to as quickly as possible, or they can spend a month trying to determine the optimal course of assessing who needs medical attention, how much attention, and in what order. While they do that, those most in need of aid will suffer. Instead, if they get to work right away they will no doubt spend resources helping those who don't need aid or immediate help, but they will also be able to guarantee immediate aid to those who do need it.

    Since the resources through deficit spending is available to Congress right now and the help needed by so many who are not easily targeted for relief so great, this seems like a no brainer to me.

    We can go back later and see if there's a better way to target relief during an emergency in the future after we've helped those in need now, even if it means a good amount of waste in the interim.
    All of this makes sense, especially when the worst consequence is "the average American gets some relief, even if they don't need it".

    It's ostensibly a relief + a stimulus at that point, and there's no doubt that it's a good thing with the US government able to borrow at historically low interest rates. Doubly so when independent evaluators have basically doubled the speed of economic acceleration in the US and point directly to Biden's relief package as to why.

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    We're off the H.R. 1 mark here, again, but the American Rescue Plan just passed and is expected to be signed into law this Friday.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil in Absentia View Post
    We're off the H.R. 1 mark here, again, but the American Rescue Plan just passed and is expected to be signed into law this Friday.

    Shouldn’t this be it’s own thread?

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    Quote Originally Posted by G1000 View Post
    All of this makes sense, especially when the worst consequence is "the average American gets some relief, even if they don't need it".

    It's ostensibly a relief + a stimulus at that point, and there's no doubt that it's a good thing with the US government able to borrow at historically low interest rates. Doubly so when independent evaluators have basically doubled the speed of economic acceleration in the US and point directly to Biden's relief package as to why.
    Worst consequence? Does hyper inflation even remotely worry you? Does it worry you that our national debt can never be paid back without excruciating pain? Are we so far gone that it’s not even a thought?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Capt View Post
    Shouldn’t this be it’s own thread?
    Probably, yes. Though it's officially passed the House and Senate and will be signed into law come Friday, so I'm not really sure what value it provides as a thread. We'll keep a pulse on this to see if there's still something to come of it, at which point, if it does, we'll open a new thread.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil in Absentia View Post
    Probably, yes. Though it's officially passed the House and Senate and will be signed into law come Friday, so I'm not really sure what value it provides as a thread. We'll keep a pulse on this to see if there's still something to come of it, at which point, if it does, we'll open a new thread.
    I think we are all having a hard enough time staying on track, I know I wander off all the time. I don't need help, haha.

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