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Thread: Death of George Floyd Sparks Nationwide Protests, Riots, Police Violence

  1. #1021
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keirik View Post
    For the most part, outside of not really understanding specifically how he was charged several different ways for the same crime, I think most of us are elated about the verdict. He made all of us look bad and also gave life to a narrative that just isn’t really accurate. Every state is different though and truthfully, the judicial system part of this is less my expertise.
    Well said. I was hoping that was the general consensus.

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    Quote Originally Posted by phillyb View Post
    I thought this was...not uncommon, but I don't know where I'm getting that idea from.
    Can you elaborate on this?

    For a rudimentary example, can't you get a citation for wreckless driving, public endangerment, and other things for the same act of speeding through a school zone?
    Honestly, when it comes to being charged with things like manslaughter and murder, I’m not an expert. I only have one murder arrest in my life and that was a premeditated 1st degree murder. Slam dunk. When it comes to that kind of stuff, from a patrol standpoint, the district attorney or homicide unit takes over.

    It’s not really comparable when it comes to traffic violations but yes you can get multiple infractions. If you speed and go through a stop sign you obviously get two tickets. Those are two separate acts though. If you were speeding you get a ticket for speeding and it’s penalty is dependent on the amount of speed, conditions like construction zone, etc. If you were going 85 in a 55, I wouldn’t give you a ticket for speeding 15 miles over the limit and a separate one for 30 miles per hour over the limit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Keirik View Post
    Honestly, when it comes to being charged with things like manslaughter and murder, I’m not an expert. I only have one murder arrest in my life and that was a premeditated 1st degree murder. Slam dunk. When it comes to that kind of stuff, from a patrol standpoint, the district attorney or homicide unit takes over.

    It’s not really comparable when it comes to traffic violations but yes you can get multiple infractions. If you speed and go through a stop sign you obviously get two tickets. Those are two separate acts though. If you were speeding you get a ticket for speeding and it’s penalty is dependent on the amount of speed, conditions like construction zone, etc. If you were going 85 in a 55, I wouldn’t give you a ticket for speeding 15 miles over the limit and a separate one for 30 miles per hour over the limit.
    Yeah, I guess it wasn't really fair to try to equate murder charges with traffic violations. After my post, I looked it up and found this article - http://thomasvalonzo.com/blog/2015/0...-single-crime/

    Getting multiple charges for a single incident is not uncommon. Arrests for drug possession can frequently lead to multiple charges for the same offense. A charge for possession of drugs could also be possession with intent to distribute, possession within a certain number of feet from a school, possession of drug paraphernalia, etc. These are all separate criminal charges with separate penalties.
    #imthebadguy

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    Quote Originally Posted by Keirik View Post
    For the most part, outside of not really understanding specifically how he was charged several different ways for the same crime, I think most of us are elated about the verdict. He made all of us look bad and also gave life to a narrative that just isn’t really accurate. Every state is different though and truthfully, the judicial system part of this is less my expertise.
    Quote Originally Posted by rmc51 View Post
    Well said. I was hoping that was the general consensus.
    I thought this was odd too, but I think CNN does a good job breaking it down here

    The second-degree unintentional murder charge alleged Chauvin caused Floyd's death "without intent" while committing or attempting to commit felony third-degree assault. In turn, third-degree assault is defined as the intentional infliction of substantial bodily harm.

    The third-degree murder charge alleged Chauvin caused Floyd's death by "perpetrating an act eminently dangerous to others and evincing a depraved mind, without regard for human life."

    The second-degree manslaughter charge alleged Chauvin caused Floyd's death by "culpable negligence whereby the person creates an unreasonable risk, and consciously takes chances of causing death or great bodily harm."

    Each of the three charges required prosecutors to prove that Chauvin's actions were not objectively reasonable and that they were a substantial cause of Floyd's death. But the charges differ primarily in how they interpret his intent and mindset during his restraint of Floyd.
    So for the jury, a good deal of the differentiation requires the answer to the mindset and intent questions. I think there's an almost certain agreement that this was second-degree manslaughter and third degree murder, but I'm struggling to appropriately harmonize how one might be simultaneously aware that what he is doing is eminently dangerous, evidence of a depraved mind, without regard for human life, and without intent (as indicated by the second degree unintentional murder charge). That feels almost contradictory to me.
    Last edited by G1000; 04-21-2021 at 08:36 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by G1000 View Post
    I thought this was odd too, but I think CNN does a good job breaking it down here



    So for the jury, a good deal of the differentiation requires the answer to the mindset and intent questions. I think there's an almost certain agreement that this was second-degree manslaughter and third degree murder, but I'm struggling to appropriately harmonize how one might be simultaneously aware that what he is doing is eminently dangerous, evidence of a depraved mind, without regard for human life, and without intent (as indicated by the second degree unintentional murder charge). That feels almost contradictory to me.
    I saw that, and so when I saw this "intentional infliction of substantial bodily harm", I ask if what Chauvin was doing is taught as a restraining method, how can he be guilty of that by applying the technique. Now, if they proved in court that he grossly overstepped on delivering the technique as he was taught to do, then yes, it switches to guilty. Maybe they did, which made it easy for the jury.

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    Quote Originally Posted by G1000 View Post
    I thought this was odd too, but I think CNN does a good job breaking it down here



    So for the jury, a good deal of the differentiation requires the answer to the mindset and intent questions. I think there's an almost certain agreement that this was second-degree manslaughter and third degree murder, but I'm struggling to appropriately harmonize how one might be simultaneously aware that what he is doing is eminently dangerous, evidence of a depraved mind, without regard for human life, and without intent (as indicated by the second degree unintentional murder charge). That feels almost contradictory to me.
    I’m guessing it’s a case of a reasonable person would have known what he was doing vs an idea of trying to say he thought “I’m gonna go get me some!”
    Quote Originally Posted by rmc51 View Post
    I saw that, and so when I saw this "intentional infliction of substantial bodily harm", I ask if what Chauvin was doing is taught as a restraining method, how can he be guilty of that by applying the technique. Now, if they proved in court that he grossly overstepped on delivering the technique as he was taught to do, then yes, it switches to guilty. Maybe they did, which made it easy for the jury.
    Even if a technique is taught, there is a limit to its justification of use. For example, I’m allowed to use pressure points or arm takedown moves that are designed to make u tap out , but I’m not allowed to continue it to the point where I maim you obviously

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    Quote Originally Posted by G1000 View Post
    I thought this was odd too, but I think CNN does a good job breaking it down here



    So for the jury, a good deal of the differentiation requires the answer to the mindset and intent questions. I think there's an almost certain agreement that this was second-degree manslaughter and third degree murder, but I'm struggling to appropriately harmonize how one might be simultaneously aware that what he is doing is eminently dangerous, evidence of a depraved mind, without regard for human life, and without intent (as indicated by the second degree unintentional murder charge). That feels almost contradictory to me.
    The multiple charges gives the jury options. They weigh evidence against each charge to see if the person violated the specific law. A single act can violate multiple laws, obviously. To simplify, every murder is also some form of assault, so both could be charged and a person could be guilty of both.

    As to the perception that charge 1 and 2 (2nd degree unintentional and 3rd degree murder) are contradictory, I would say they are not. The finding here is that Chauvin did not intend to murder Floyd. Instead, Floyd died while Chauvin was committing a different crime (third-degree assault). That assault was also "an act eminently dangerous to others and evincing a depraved mind, without regard for human life." The manslaughter charge is just a lesser version of the 3rd degree murder charge, where the intent may be slightly less.

    In short, they found that Chauvin was not intending to kill Floyd, he just didn't care if his actions had that result, and he should have known of the likely danger he created.
    Frisbeetarianism is the belief that when you die, your soul goes up on the roof and gets stuck. George Carlin

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