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Thread: The Gun Control Debate

  1. #1921
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Clutch View Post
    If we're going constitutionally then all guns owned by civilians should be kept in a storehouse as it was when the Constitution was written.
    That's a very slippery slope. The Constitution created a framework for government that would (hopefully) account for changing times. If you want to judge just the 2nd Amendment based on the standards of the day that the Constitution was written, you need to do that for everything in it. Government wouldn't be able to pave roads or regulate mass production. There would be no internet.

    Really, that's not what the Constitution does. It provides rules for rule making. Who can make the rules. How they're selected. Who selects them. What guidelines they have to follow. Then the first 10 Amendments were added to clarify certain rights of the citizens, powers of the states and limitations of the government.
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    Oh look, another mass killing by a (known and documented) unstable individual with an AR-15 he was allowed to own.


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    National policy is needed. Badly. Everything else is a half measure. If even that.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Parsley View Post
    Oh look, another mass killing by a (known and documented) unstable individual with an AR-15 he was allowed to own.

    Did the gun make him do it?

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    When will this horrible shit stop?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rangers4Life View Post
    When will this horrible shit stop?
    Never. Guns or no guns.

  7. #1927
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    We have AR15's here, hell, SKS' go around here like candy, my brother has 6 of them, at least two of my managers have .308's in their trucks at all times.

    Same gun culture, no school shootings, why?

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    I've never been for banning guns or anything like that. I'm not anti-gun. I'm pro background check. I'm pro- anything that ensures sick individuals who would use guns for purposes like this don't get them. I don't understand why people who NRA pro-gun people think that just because the majority of people want a policy that stop pyschos from having guns means we're going to ban all guns. that hasn't been proposed by anyone.

    this onion article gets too relevant everytime

    https://www.theonion.com/no-way-to-p...s-r-1819576527

    ‘No Way To Prevent This,’ Says Only Nation Where This Regularly Happens
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    Quote Originally Posted by Long live the King View Post
    Did the gun make him do it?
    Perhaps.

    Put an AR15 in an unstable man's hands and it could give him a rush he needs to go out and carry out an attack like this.

  10. #1930
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlairBettsBlocksEverything View Post
    I've never been for banning guns or anything like that. I'm not anti-gun. I'm pro background check. I'm pro- anything that ensures sick individuals who would use guns for purposes like this don't get them. I don't understand why people who NRA pro-gun people think that just because the majority of people want a policy that stop pyschos from having guns means we're going to ban all guns. that hasn't been proposed by anyone.

    this onion article gets too relevant everytime

    https://www.theonion.com/no-way-to-p...s-r-1819576527
    Guns aren't the issue. If guns were the issue, and there are more guns in America than people, wouldn't there be more of these events?

    The issue, as you stated, is sick individuals. How do you institutionalize them without compromising the rights and freedoms of people that aren't sick?

  11. #1931
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    Quote Originally Posted by Long live the King View Post
    Guns aren't the issue. If guns were the issue, and there are more guns in America than people, wouldn't there be more of these events?

    The issue, as you stated, is sick individuals. How do you institutionalize them without compromising the rights and freedoms of people that aren't sick?
    I love how republicans (not average people, just the politicians in power) keep using the mental illness issue but then don't propose anything that helps with mental health. Actually they look to slash funding that would go to help people dealing with mental illness.

    It's not one or the other. Yes, it is sick individuals. But they shouldn't have access to tools that can allow them to do this. If someone is mentally ill and can't operate a vehicle we don't give them a drivers lisence or a commerical drivers license do we? If someone is blind do we allow them to drive? If someone has a history of drunk driving do we let them keep their license?

    For pretty much every other thing that can potentially cause danger to other people, we make sure people who are licensed to operate said thing are capable of doing so right?

    If we let someone who was a constant drunk driver continue to drive a car and they killed someone, yeah, it's not the cars fault. It's our fault for allowing that person to have a license to drive right?

    To say 'it's a mental health issue not a gun issue' is disingenous. Nobody is trying to say the gun committed the crime. But we don't have anything in place to stop someone who is not capable of responsibly owning the gun from using it in this way.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlairBettsBlocksEverything View Post
    I love how republicans (not average people, just the politicians in power) keep using the mental illness issue but then don't propose anything that helps with mental health. Actually they look to slash funding that would go to help people dealing with mental illness.

    It's not one or the other. Yes, it is sick individuals. But they shouldn't have access to tools that can allow them to do this. If someone is mentally ill and can't operate a vehicle we don't give them a drivers lisence or a commerical drivers license do we? If someone is blind do we allow them to drive? If someone has a history of drunk driving do we let them keep their license?

    For pretty much every other thing that can potentially cause danger to other people, we make sure people who are licensed to operate said thing are capable of doing so right?

    If we let someone who was a constant drunk driver continue to drive a car and they killed someone, yeah, it's not the cars fault. It's our fault for allowing that person to have a license to drive right?

    To say 'it's a mental health issue not a gun issue' is disingenous. Nobody is trying to say the gun committed the crime. But we don't have anything in place to stop someone who is not capable of responsibly owning the gun from using it in this way.

    First, that's a terrible example. If a drunk wants to get into a car and drive they do, with or without a licence. Most repeat DUI offenders don't have a valid licence, yet they can still physically get into a car and crash into shit.


    Second, you use this bolded sentence to take a dig at what I assume is your political opposition, yet don't offer any sort of solution to the problem you blame them for failing to solve?

    Being blind is black and white. Either you can pass a vision test or you can't. The whole crux of the issue is where to draw the line when committing people to a mental hospital. Either you will have some crazies on the street, or you will institutionalize people unnecessarily. That is why this nation will never be able to prevent these types of things, because we have freedom and don't have to worry about the government coming to throw us in the looney bin.

  13. #1933
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    Quote Originally Posted by Long live the King View Post
    First, that's a terrible example. If a drunk wants to get into a car and drive they do, with or without a licence. Most repeat DUI offenders don't have a valid licence, yet they can still physically get into a car and crash into shit.


    Second, you use this bolded sentence to take a dig at what I assume is your political opposition, yet don't offer any sort of solution to the problem you blame them for failing to solve?

    Being blind is black and white. Either you can pass a vision test or you can't. The whole crux of the issue is where to draw the line when committing people to a mental hospital. Either you will have some crazies on the street, or you will institutionalize people unnecessarily. That is why this nation will never be able to prevent these types of things, because we have freedom and don't have to worry about the government coming to throw us in the looney bin.
    In regards to the bolded sentance. If I knew all the answers for how to fix these kind of problems I'd make a lot more money than I do now. Never said I did, just that I'm tired of seeing the response of 'It's just a mental health issue!' followed by nothing being done on mental health issues.

    let me ammend my drunk driver analogy then. Imagine a car dealership selling that guy a car then? The Florida shooting was done with a legally owned gun. A disturbed individual capable of doing this is able to walk into a gun store and purchase his tool that he is planning to use to kill as many people as he can. Yes, people who want to commit crimes will commit crimes but can we make a little more difficult for them at least? and just because criminals will do it anyway doesn't mean we shouldn't bother making things a crime. Rapists will rape anyway so why even bother making rape a crime?

    I agree it is a mental health issue. That's why I said earlier that I don't believe in banning all guns or anything like that. Just that I'm pro-background check.

    your last sentance kind of troubles me though. It seems like you've just accepted the fact that 'hey, if you wanna live in America you just have to put up with the possibility that a mentally ill person can take a rifle and just start shooting you and everyone around you. oh well, price to pay to live in America!'

    I'm not ready to accept that just yet.
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  14. #1934
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    Quote Originally Posted by Long live the King View Post
    Never. Guns or no guns.
    True but making it more difficult to get the guns will greatly reduce the amount of these tragic incidents. How does someone who’s unstable enough to kill 17 people legally get this type of gun in the first place. I know this conversation can go back and forth all day but these stories are just so sad and frustrating to see, especially when most of us have kids in school right now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BlairBettsBlocksEverything View Post
    In regards to the bolded sentance. If I knew all the answers for how to fix these kind of problems I'd make a lot more money than I do now. Never said I did, just that I'm tired of seeing the response of 'It's just a mental health issue!' followed by nothing being done on mental health issues.

    let me ammend my drunk driver analogy then. Imagine a car dealership selling that guy a car then? The Florida shooting was done with a legally owned gun. A disturbed individual capable of doing this is able to walk into a gun store and purchase his tool that he is planning to use to kill as many people as he can. Yes, people who want to commit crimes will commit crimes but can we make a little more difficult for them at least? and just because criminals will do it anyway doesn't mean we shouldn't bother making things a crime. Rapists will rape anyway so why even bother making rape a crime?

    I agree it is a mental health issue. That's why I said earlier that I don't believe in banning all guns or anything like that. Just that I'm pro-background check.

    your last sentance kind of troubles me though. It seems like you've just accepted the fact that 'hey, if you wanna live in America you just have to put up with the possibility that a mentally ill person can take a rifle and just start shooting you and everyone around you. oh well, price to pay to live in America!'

    I'm not ready to accept that just yet.
    You don't need a DL or a background check to buy a car... You already need to pass a background check to buy a gun.

    How familiar are you with mental health? People can be fine for years, just to start a rapid decline without even knowing what is happening to them. How is that supposed to show up on a background check?

    Your last sentence troubles me more. It seems like you want to live in a place where the government dictates your life, where you can go, and what you can do based on what is currently a pretty arbitrary test. Are all 320+ million Americans supposed to undergo mental health evals once a quarter to weed out the crazies? Who decides how crazy is too crazy?

  16. #1936
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    Quote Originally Posted by Long live the King View Post
    You don't need a DL or a background check to buy a car... You already need to pass a background check to buy a gun.

    How familiar are you with mental health? People can be fine for years, just to start a rapid decline without even knowing what is happening to them. How is that supposed to show up on a background check?

    Your last sentence troubles me more. It seems like you want to live in a place where the government dictates your life, where you can go, and what you can do based on what is currently a pretty arbitrary test. Are all 320+ million Americans supposed to undergo mental health evals once a quarter to weed out the crazies? Who decides how crazy is too crazy?
    There are a lot of loopholes in the law that make it easy to get guns, regardless of who you are.

    I never suggested we have 320 million americans undergoing mental health evals so I don't know where you got that. I don't know what you find so troubling about saying I don't want our country to just accept that every few months or so we're just going to have random mass shootings. I also never suggested that there is any solution that will 100% solve the problem, but can we do something? Again, I'm no expert on the issue, I won't pretend I have all the facts or anything, but to suggest this is just something we have to live with is ridiculous.

    What do you suggest we do if it's strictly a mental health issue? I agree with you that that's where it comes from, but it seems like we talk about it being a mental health issue and then nothing changes on mental health.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlairBettsBlocksEverything View Post
    There are a lot of loopholes in the law that make it easy to get guns, regardless of who you are.

    I never suggested we have 320 million americans undergoing mental health evals so I don't know where you got that. I don't know what you find so troubling about saying I don't want our country to just accept that every few months or so we're just going to have random mass shootings. I also never suggested that there is any solution that will 100% solve the problem, but can we do something? Again, I'm no expert on the issue, I won't pretend I have all the facts or anything, but to suggest this is just something we have to live with is ridiculous.

    What do you suggest we do if it's strictly a mental health issue? I agree with you that that's where it comes from, but it seems like we talk about it being a mental health issue and then nothing changes on mental health.
    What are these 'lot of loopholes'?

    How do you change something on mental health when most people don't realize they have a mental health issue? People always have and always will kill other people. Thinking we can stop it with more gun laws is ridiculous.
    Its hard to get guns, they'll run you over with a car/truck. You'll never convince me that a person hell bent on killing other people only does it because of guns and without guns they'd just go about their business as usual.

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    Where did I say that gun laws would stop crazy people from killing?

    private sale/gun show loophole where many states don't require background checks for private sales, nor are sellers required to be licensed to sell.

    in regards to changing things regarding mental health, maybe we make mental health checks more easily accessible? Maybe we ensure students in schools can see mental health professionals more frequently? Again, I don't know. But you are claiming it's purely a mental health issue . And I'm not even saying you're wrong about that. It's clearly an issue. I was genuinely asking a question about what you think can be done in regards to the mental health crisis in our country. If you're thought is that we can't do anything and we should just offer our thoughts and prayers than fine. All I've said is that I think that's a shitty mentality to just accept that we are going to have major mass shootings every couple of months.

    With gun laws, we can at least try to stop them from using guns to do it no? It's a hell of a lot easier to go on a rampage with a gun than it is to use a knife or other weapons.

    Again, just to reiterate, I never said any bill or law will be completely 100 percent the way to solve all forms of violence. But can it not be so goddamned easy for them to get the guns they are using to do it?
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    That's not how mental health works. It's a very complex thing. So there is a sign on a building that says "Free Mental Health Evaluations Inside". Why would you go inside if you didn't think there was anything wrong with you?

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    I'm just asking what you think can be done about it. Obviously it goes beyond just saying 'free mental health checks inside'

    if you think there is absolutely nothing than fine. We can just live in a country where this happens and accept it
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