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Thread: Death Penalty

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rome 2.0 View Post
    I edited after the fact.

    I'm not even saying that any of that is realistic, or likely. I'm just saying that you can't set this up under the impression that it'll be iron-clad. There will still be a margin for error when you are talking about the death penalty, and unlike prison sentences, there is no coming back from this.

    This is the very reason I'm against it. That, and the fact it's been proven to be completely ineffective to deter violent crime. Rapists don't rape less and killers don't stop killing just because the state they do it in might put them to death for it.
    That's only a piece of it. As Peetie said, a life sentence and a death sentence are probably equal in deterring future crimes. I seem to think so too. It's more about the cost of keeping them alive. And do they deserve to live? Those are the two factors that make the two options extraordinarily different.
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    Quote Originally Posted by quick release View Post
    That's only a piece of it. As Peetie said, a life sentence and a death sentence are probably equal in deterring future crimes. I seem to think so too. It's more about the cost of keeping them alive. And do they deserve to live? Those are the two factors that make the two options extraordinarily different.
    Not to me. My issue is on certainty. The vast majority of cases would not qualify for his proposed capital punishment program, so at the end of the day this all boils down to prison reform, yet again.

    You can point to repeat offenders, but then you have to point to the system that failed to "rehabilitate" them the first time around, for example.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rome 2.0 View Post
    I edited after the fact.

    I'm not even saying that any of that is realistic, or likely. I'm just saying that you can't set this up under the impression that it'll be iron-clad. There will still be a margin for error when you are talking about the death penalty, and unlike prison sentences, there is no coming back from this.

    This is the very reason I'm against it. That, and the fact it's been proven to be completely ineffective to deter violent crime. Rapists don't rape less and killers don't stop killing just because the state they do it in might put them to death for it.
    I'm not talking deterrent. I agree, there is no deterrent. Because you're dealing with someone who either can't compute the consequences, doesn't care, or otherwise isn't in a proper state of mind.

    But there are times when there are "slam dunk cases". That's not even debate able. It happens. And in that instance, we should be able to execute.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peetie27 View Post
    I'm not talking deterrent. I agree, there is no deterrent. Because you're dealing with someone who either can't compute the consequences, doesn't care, or otherwise isn't in a proper state of mind.

    But there are times when there are "slam dunk cases". That's not even debate able. It happens. And in that instance, we should be able to execute.
    I don't really disagree, I'm just saying that it's niche. It's rare. It doesn't happen enough for me to want to focus on that, versus focusing on actually reforming a completely broken system.

    It's why I gave you the flat tire analogy.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rome 2.0 View Post
    And what happens when your "clear cut" case isn't so clear cut four years into the process. All of a sudden the key witness is charged in a perjury case, or fraud case? All of a sudden you find out that two jurors were paid off? All of a sudden you find out that brand new DNA evidence, or an alibi puts your sure-as-shit "killer" somewhere else the night of a murder?

    Again, you guys are using these "slam dunk" cases where it's BLATANTLY obvious that something happened and thinking you can then create a precedent around it. You can't. These events are exceptions to the rule. The VAST majority of cases surrounding violent crime are MUCH, MUCH more muddy and cloudy.
    This is what you have appeals for. Im not saying every case, but something like yesterday, or the guy from Denver, or the guy who shot Giffords and everyone else. A guy that shoots up his office or a mall or theater, a guy that shoots a cop should all be death penalty cases. Cases where it is 100% guilty, beyond a reasonable doubt.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rome 2.0 View Post
    And this is the exact reason the prison system doesn't work.

    I'm not condoning the killing of cops, but this internal hierarchy/system is exactly why the system is broken. It's all about exploitation and money-making, and shouldn't be. It was never designed to be a for-profit system, in any sense.
    You do know that when a cop killer goes to jail, he is treated like a king by the inmates, and same by his homies outside of prison. Its a bump up in their status.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rome 2.0 View Post
    I edited after the fact.

    I'm not even saying that any of that is realistic, or likely. I'm just saying that you can't set this up under the impression that it'll be iron-clad. There will still be a margin for error when you are talking about the death penalty, and unlike prison sentences, there is no coming back from this.

    This is the very reason I'm against it. That, and the fact it's been proven to be completely ineffective to deter violent crime. Rapists don't rape less and killers don't stop killing just because the state they do it in might put them to death for it.
    Your complaining about us using these cases, yet you are doing the same thing. There are far more people in jail that truly did commit the crime than there are that are innocent. Yes it happens, but right now, with DNA available, you dont have too many wrongful convictions right now. Old convictions are being overturned, but a case that goes today, if your DNA is there, there is no denying that. There are camera's every place now, its easy to catch a crime or the criminal leaving the scene. Because of technology, we should start to see less innocent people going to jail. And cases where there isnt enough evidence, dont have to be DP cases.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NYR2711 View Post
    This is what you have appeals for. Im not saying every case, but something like yesterday, or the guy from Denver, or the guy who shot Giffords and everyone else. A guy that shoots up his office or a mall or theater, a guy that shoots a cop should all be death penalty cases. Cases where it is 100% guilty, beyond a reasonable doubt.
    Again, there are always examples as to how this can backfire.

    Let's say Subject A shoots Subject B in the head and Subject B doesn't die, but is in a coma. You post-pone your case now until Subject B wakes up or dies to determine whether Subject A goes for prison term or death penalty?

    What happens if he goes for prison term to start the trial, and then Subject B dies?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rome 2.0 View Post
    I don't really disagree, I'm just saying that it's niche. It's rare. It doesn't happen enough for me to want to focus on that, versus focusing on actually reforming a completely broken system.

    It's why I gave you the flat tire analogy.
    How do you know it is rare? There are plenty of people serving life sentences for murder, and murdering more than 1 person, that there is 100% proof that they did it. How many men have killed wives, ex-wives, girl friends, ex-girlfriends and there kids. It happens a lot. Look at these 2 or 3 kids that killed the girl in Jersey, the kids mother turned him in when she saw a facebook post from him about it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NYR2711 View Post
    You do know that when a cop killer goes to jail, he is treated like a king by the inmates, and same by his homies outside of prison. Its a bump up in their status.
    True but in this case he also killed an innocent man with a family. Unique situation but you're 100% accurate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rome 2.0 View Post
    Again, there are always examples as to how this can backfire.

    Let's say Subject A shoots Subject B in the head and Subject B doesn't die, but is in a coma. You post-pone your case now until Subject B wakes up or dies to determine whether Subject A goes for prison term or death penalty?

    What happens if he goes for prison term to start the trial, and then Subject B dies?
    Thats not how a trial works. They dont wait to see if a person dies or wakes up, because it could take years. They go with the charge that best suits what happened. What about when Subject A shoots at Subject B, misses and hits Child A in the head and kills them on their front stoop.They have the gun, test the gun for DNA, and they have Subject A in custody. DNA comes back to Subject A on the gun, ballistics tests match all ballistics to the gun, there is video of him shooting the gun at Subject B and 5 witnesses all say they saw him shoot the gun. What more evidence do you need to know he is guilty.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NYR2711 View Post
    How do you know it is rare? There are plenty of people serving life sentences for murder, and murdering more than 1 person, that there is 100% proof that they did it. How many men have killed wives, ex-wives, girl friends, ex-girlfriends and there kids. It happens a lot. Look at these 2 or 3 kids that killed the girl in Jersey, the kids mother turned him in when she saw a facebook post from him about it.
    There is not "100%" proof. There's just proof beyond reasonable doubt, based on what everyone involved in the case was privy to. Again, I point to The Life and Death of David Gale. I don't mean to spoil it for anyone who hasn't seen it, so if you intend to watch, stop reading:

      Spoiler: {option} 
    The entire premise of the film is based on David Gale proving that the system can and does convict, and execute innocent men based on circumstantial evidence. The final scene, where you actually see the entire tape, and realize that Laura Linney's character actually swallowed the key and bagged herself while David taped it, and that it was all her idea becomes the living proof of it.


    Yes, I'm aware there are going to be cases where it's a slam dunk, but my point is that it's going to be a lot more difficult than we think to start categorizing which fit Pete's bill and which don't when additional information becomes available, especially after the fact, once it's too late.

    Again, there will still be a margin for error when you are talking about the death penalty, and unlike prison sentences, there is no coming back from death. When you fuck that up, you really fuck things up.
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    Quote Originally Posted by NYR2711 View Post
    Thats not how a trial works. They dont wait to see if a person dies or wakes up, because it could take years. They go with the charge that best suits what happened. What about when Subject A shoots at Subject B, misses and hits Child A in the head and kills them on their front stoop.They have the gun, test the gun for DNA, and they have Subject A in custody. DNA comes back to Subject A on the gun, ballistics tests match all ballistics to the gun, there is video of him shooting the gun at Subject B and 5 witnesses all say they saw him shoot the gun. What more evidence do you need to know he is guilty.
    The fucked up thing is that your scenario happens daily.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rome 2.0 View Post
    There is not "100%" proof. There's just proof beyond reasonable doubt, based on what everyone involved in the case was privy to. Again, I point to The Life and Death of David Gale. I don't mean to spoil it for anyone who hasn't seen it, so if you intend to watch, stop reading:

      Spoiler: {option} 
    The entire premise of the film is based on David Gale proving that the system can and does convict, and execute innocent men based on circumstantial evidence. The final scene, where you actually see the entire tape, and realize that Laura Linney's character actually swallowed the key and bagged herself while David taped it, and that it was all her idea becomes the living proof of it.


    Yes, I'm aware there are going to be cases where it's a slam dunk, but my point is that it's going to be a lot more difficult than we think to start categorizing which fit Pete's bill and which don't when additional information becomes available, especially after the fact, once it's too late.

    Again, there will still be a margin for error when you are talking about the death penalty, and unlike prison sentences, there is no coming back from death. When you fuck that up, you really fuck things up.
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    Quote Originally Posted by NYR2711 View Post
    Thats not how a trial works. They dont wait to see if a person dies or wakes up, because it could take years. They go with the charge that best suits what happened. What about when Subject A shoots at Subject B, misses and hits Child A in the head and kills them on their front stoop.They have the gun, test the gun for DNA, and they have Subject A in custody. DNA comes back to Subject A on the gun, ballistics tests match all ballistics to the gun, there is video of him shooting the gun at Subject B and 5 witnesses all say they saw him shoot the gun. What more evidence do you need to know he is guilty.
    Right, so in the proposal I gave, you now just sent a man to prison for Attempted Murder, because of your time constraints, and a killer gets released to the public because Subject B died after the trial started. Just like that, crack in the system.

    In your proposal, what happens when Subject A is executed and then the five witnesses come forward and say they were lying? You just executed an innocent man. Again, crack in the system.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peetie27 View Post
    Phil — It's a movie. Even if based on actual events. A movie nonetheless.
    And?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rome 2.0 View Post
    Right, so in the proposal I gave, you now just sent a man to prison for Attempted Murder, because of your time constraints, and a killer gets released to the public because Subject B died after the trial started. Just like that, crack in the system.

    In your proposal, what happens when Subject A is executed and then the five witnesses come forward and say they were lying? You just executed an innocent man. Again, crack in the system.
    I think you need to ask yourself how often THIS happens, instead of how often innocent people are jailed.

    5 separate witnesses all lying, then all admitting that they are lying, for no reason?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rome 2.0 View Post
    And?
    So you can't base what happens in real life on a Hollywood depiction.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rome 2.0 View Post
    There is not "100%" proof. There's just proof beyond reasonable doubt, based on what everyone involved in the case was privy to. Again, I point to The Life and Death of David Gale. I don't mean to spoil it for anyone who hasn't seen it, so if you intend to watch, stop reading:

      Spoiler: {option} 
    The entire premise of the film is based on David Gale proving that the system can and does convict, and execute innocent men based on circumstantial evidence. The final scene, where you actually see the entire tape, and realize that Laura Linney's character actually swallowed the key and bagged herself while David taped it, and that it was all her idea becomes the living proof of it.


    Yes, I'm aware there are going to be cases where it's a slam dunk, but my point is that it's going to be a lot more difficult than we think to start categorizing which fit Pete's bill and which don't when additional information becomes available, especially after the fact, once it's too late.

    Again, there will still be a margin for error when you are talking about the death penalty, and unlike prison sentences, there is no coming back from death. When you fuck that up, you really fuck things up.
    I get your point but the next time we talk about Science Fiction, I'm going to use Star Wars to prove my point about life beyond Earth.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peetie27 View Post
    I think you need to ask yourself how often THIS happens, instead of how often innocent people are jailed.

    5 separate witnesses all lying, then all admitting that they are lying, for no reason?
    That's not the point, dude. I said this earlier. My point is, your proposal is NOT iron-clad. There are quite literally dozens of circumstances that can alter these processes, events, etc. after the fact, that could ultimately result in the execution of innocent men and women. There is no coming back from death. There is, however, the ability to be released from a prison sentence you were wrongly convicted of.

    Sorry, but I'm just not a fan of acting on certainty when certainty is not certain.
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