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    Quote Originally Posted by Peetie27 View Post
    Well, because all of your data supporting your argument against the death penalty is built on the premise of appeals.

    If certain criteria are met, why can't a prosecutor push to have someone indicted on a capital crime, and if found guilty, put to death? Not all cases would fall under this umbrella, not ones like this, where it's so clear who the killer is. There would be no basis for appeal, therefore the costs you are talking about would not be incurred, and it would in fact be less expensive to extinguish the vermin.
    Again, I'm not saying there can't be a process for this, but instituting it alone is adding to the cost of a system that is already proven to be a failure of it's mission statement in the first place. IMO we're putting far too much emphasis on fixing characteristics of a broken system, and far too little on fixing the system in the first place.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peetie27 View Post
    Well, because all of your data supporting your argument against the death penalty is built on the premise of appeals.

    If certain criteria are met, why can't a prosecutor push to have someone indicted on a capital crime, and if found guilty, put to death? Not all cases would fall under this umbrella, not ones like this, where it's so clear who the killer is. There would be no basis for appeal, therefore the costs you are talking about would not be incurred, and it would in fact be less expensive to extinguish the vermin.
    This is how I see it as well. If every state is going to have different laws, then allow the Feds to try these cases. If there is clear cut evidence against someone, then there is no need for a long drawn out appeals process. Give them a couple of years, but no longer than 5 years, it cuts costs and gets it done quicker.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rome 2.0 View Post
    No he is not, dude. He's going into Gen Pop. What does this guy look like? Is he white? If so, he's fucked already. Unless he goes in and kills someone on his first day he's likely to be exploited for sexual, financial, etc. favors from the onset.

    You seriously consider life in federal prison as being "spared"? I'd rather die than live life in prison.
    How many times do guys like this go into general pop. Look at Manson, look at Berkowitz, both white guys that are still alive. Hell, Getz survived prison. There is no guarantee that he will be in general pop, if his life is in danger, they will keep him separate from general pop. What if the guy pulls of the insane route and gets put into an asylum? There is no 100% guarantee that he will be in general pop.

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    Quote Originally Posted by H-Dreamer View Post
    Because you would two laws for the same crime. That doesn't work.
    Oh no? Why not?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikey37 View Post
    Is there a doubt that this guy committed this crime? Do they need to collect and examine DNA for this case? I'm not saying all but some are open and shut. And don't give me this equal shit. As much as you would like to believe that that's actually how it works, it doesn't. When you go through the system and see what it's like, call me. Supposedly everyone is innocent until proven guilty, correct? We can also talk about the media publicizing innocent people when they're first arrested but never following up those breaking stories when the accused person was in fact innocent but by then it's too late because their lives are ruined already. That's for another thread.
    Which is exactly the reason I don't want death penalty. People are already judged before they even enter the room by the media and the people.

    Also there is no sure fire thing 99% of the time and in my opinion you can't have an extra law for the remaining 1%.
    It sets a dangerous precedent, cause soon people would start arguing what defines a "slam dunk" case and rally people to get this law broadened to more people.

    There is also the rather unpopular standpoint that law shouldn't be about revenge and the DP is clearly about revenge.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NYR2711 View Post
    How many times do guys like this go into general pop. Look at Manson, look at Berkowitz, both white guys that are still alive. Hell, Getz survived prison. There is no guarantee that he will be in general pop, if his life is in danger, they will keep him separate from general pop. What if the guy pulls of the insane route and gets put into an asylum? There is no 100% guarantee that he will be in general pop.
    Agreed. This guy won't be in general population. There isn't a CO in the world that would stop someone from hurting/killing him for the sole reason that he killed a cop.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NYR2711 View Post
    How many times do guys like this go into general pop. Look at Manson, look at Berkowitz, both white guys that are still alive. Hell, Getz survived prison. There is no guarantee that he will be in general pop, if his life is in danger, they will keep him separate from general pop. What if the guy pulls of the insane route and gets put into an asylum? There is no 100% guarantee that he will be in general pop.
    You're talking about isolated cases though, dude. Think about the MASSIVE number of convicted felons there are in prison. Think about the MASSIVE number of violent criminals there. How many do you think honestly get housed in AdSeg or SNY for the duration of their sentence?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikey37 View Post
    Agreed. This guy won't be in general population. There isn't a CO in the world that would stop someone from hurting/killing him for the sole reason that he killed a cop.
    And this is the exact reason the prison system doesn't work.

    I'm not condoning the killing of cops, but this internal hierarchy/system is exactly why the system is broken. It's all about exploitation and money-making, and shouldn't be. It was never designed to be a for-profit system, in any sense.
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    Quote Originally Posted by H-Dreamer View Post
    Which is exactly the reason I don't want death penalty. People are already judged before they even enter the room by the media and the people.

    Also there is no sure fire thing 99% of the time and in my opinion you can't have an extra law for the remaining 1%.
    It sets a dangerous precedent, cause soon people would start arguing what defines a "slam dunk" case and rally people to get this law broadened to more people.

    There is also the rather unpopular standpoint that law shouldn't be about revenge and the DP is clearly about revenge.
    Wrong. They're judged by people because of the media. This case isn't like all of the others. There isn't any doubt that he's guilty. I think a lot of people share your opinion but I bet they'd change their tune if it happened to someone they loved.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NYR2711 View Post
    This is how I see it as well. If every state is going to have different laws, then allow the Feds to try these cases. If there is clear cut evidence against someone, then there is no need for a long drawn out appeals process. Give them a couple of years, but no longer than 5 years, it cuts costs and gets it done quicker.
    And what happens when your "clear cut" case isn't so clear cut four years into the process. All of a sudden the key witness is charged in a perjury case, or fraud case? All of a sudden you find out that two jurors were paid off? All of a sudden you find out that brand new DNA evidence, or an alibi puts your sure-as-shit "killer" somewhere else the night of a murder?

    Again, you guys are using these "slam dunk" cases where it's BLATANTLY obvious that something happened and thinking you can then create a precedent around it. You can't. These events are exceptions to the rule. The VAST majority of cases surrounding violent crime are MUCH, MUCH more muddy and cloudy.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rome 2.0 View Post
    And what happens when your "clear cut" case isn't so clear cut four years into the process. All of a sudden the key witness is charged in a perjury case, or fraud case? All of a sudden you find out that two jurors were paid off? All of a sudden you find out that brand new DNA evidence, or an alibi puts your sure-as-shit "killer" somewhere else the night of a murder?

    Again, you guys are using these "slam dunk" cases where it's BLATANTLY obvious that something happened and thinking you can then create a precedent around it. You can't. These events are exceptions to the rule. The VAST majority of cases surrounding violent crime are MUCH, MUCH more muddy and cloudy.
    Not true, I've said 3 times we can have statutes in place for these types of cases. There is NO reason we can't.

    You act like we're saying to forgo a trial completely, and based on certain evidence, kill someone. That's not what we're saying.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rome 2.0 View Post
    And what happens when your "clear cut" case isn't so clear cut four years into the process. All of a sudden the key witness is charged in a perjury case, or fraud case? All of a sudden you find out that two jurors were paid off? All of a sudden you find out that brand new DNA evidence, or an alibi puts your sure-as-shit "killer" somewhere else the night of a murder?

    Again, you guys are using these "slam dunk" cases where it's BLATANTLY obvious that something happened and thinking you can then create a precedent around it. You can't. These events are exceptions to the rule. The VAST majority of cases surrounding violent crime are MUCH, MUCH more muddy and cloudy.
    That's why he used the words "clear cut". If it isn't clear cut, then it's a no go. I am all for the death penalty. I understand that people are against it, but if you eliminate that 1 person, you can at least be assured that he/she will not be on the streets looking for their next victim. Life sentence in prison is a vacation for some of these people. They don't deserve to breathe the air we breathe.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rome 2.0 View Post
    And this is the exact reason the prison system doesn't work.

    I'm not condoning the killing of cops, but this internal hierarchy/system is exactly why the system is broken. It's all about exploitation and money-making, and shouldn't be. It was never designed to be a for-profit system, in any sense.
    Every decision made has consequences. People know these consequences ahead of time. Don't fuck up. Call it unfair, broken, inhumane or what have you but it's just another element of life. Who's to say that people that hear these horror stories about what happens to these guys in prison doesn't deter them from pulling the trigger, raping, kidnapping, etc ... Where's the "poll" for that stat? Fuck em ... it is what it is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peetie27 View Post
    Not true, I've said 3 times we can have statutes in place for these types of cases. There is NO reason we can't.

    You act like we're saying to forgo a trial completely, and based on certain evidence, kill someone. That's not what we're saying.
    So define it. I guarantee you, even after you do, that there will be hundreds of holes in it.

    You think "clear cut" is as clear cut as saying the words? I could fire off a dozen cases where evidence can be raised after the fact, things can be missed, issues can arise after someone has been put to death that question it's validity, etc. Have you ever seen The Life and Death of David Gale? PRIME example of how so many can be so wrong.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chizz View Post
    That's why he used the words "clear cut". If it isn't clear cut, then it's a no go. I am all for the death penalty. I understand that people are against it, but if you eliminate that 1 person, you can at least be assured that he/she will not be on the streets looking for their next victim. Life sentence in prison is a vacation for some of these people. They don't deserve to breathe the air we breathe.
    Yup, and you can also be assured you executed the right person, right? There's no chance for a set-up, or fraud, or issues to happen after the fact that all of a sudden cast a shadow of doubt that you may have just executed an innocent man?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rome 2.0 View Post
    So define it. I guarantee you, even after you do, that there will be hundreds of holes in it.

    You think "clear cut" is as clear cut as saying the words? I could fire off a dozen cases where evidence can be raised after the fact, things can be missed, issues can arise after someone has been put to death that question it's validity, etc. Have you ever seen The Life and Death of David Gale? PRIME example of how so many can be so wrong.
    How about I have a video of you killing 3 people in front of 26 witnesses who all corroborate the story? Add to that the blood and powder burns on you, along with your signed confession. That clear cut enough?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peetie27 View Post
    How about I have a video of you killing 3 people in front of 26 witnesses who all corroborate the story? Add to that the blood and powder burns on you, along with your signed confession. That clear cut enough?
    How was my confession collected? Was I coerced? Does your video clearly identify me, and only me? Was I wearing a mask? Did you only see me being caught by police after the fact without the mask, but never me actually shooting people because you couldn't see my face? What if the blood on my hands doesn't match any of the victims? What if the blood on my hands was sprayed with amonia? What if the powder burns were dated from weeks prior? What if the video footage you have isn't clear, because it wasn't shot in HD? What if after the fact, another video is released showing a real killer shoot everyone, then walk into a room where I'm dressed in identical gear, only to hide, and have me walk back out and get caught by police?

    Again, watch The Life and Death of David Gale. The idea of a "slam dunk" is purely theoretical. Nothing is ever truly a slam dunk, legally speaking.

    I'm not even saying that any of that is realistic, or likely. I'm just saying that you can't set this up under the impression that it'll be iron-clad. There will still be a margin for error when you are talking about the death penalty, and unlike prison sentences, there is no coming back from this.

    This is the very reason I'm against it. That, and the fact it's been proven to be completely ineffective to deter violent crime. Rapists don't rape less and killers don't stop killing just because the state they do it in might put them to death for it.
    Last edited by Phil in Absentia; 10-24-2012 at 01:18 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rome 2.0 View Post
    How was my confession collected? Was I coerced? Does your video clearly identify me, and only me? Was I wearing a mask? Did you only see me being caught by police after the fact without the mask, but never me actually shooting people because you couldn't see my face? What if the blood on my hands doesn't match any of the victims? What if the blood on my hands was sprayed with amonia? What if the powder burns were dated from weeks prior? What if the video footage you have isn't clear, because it wasn't shot in HD? What if after the fact, another video is released showing a real killer shoot everyone, then walk into a room where I'm dressed in identical gear, only to hide, and have me walk back out and get caught by police?

    Again, watch The Life and Death of David Gale. The idea of a "slam dunk" is purely theoretical. Nothing is ever truly a slam dunk, legally speaking.
    I think the scenario I stated implies that the answers to your questions all point to your guilt. I'm not going to go around in circles here. I'm not going to base a real life opinion on a Hollywood depiction.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peetie27 View Post
    This is how I feel. I don't think that the death penalty is a deterrent any more than life without parole is. These people have broken minds that don't operate on the same wavelengths as the rest of us.

    But logistically, why keep the guy alive and pay to support him if he has no chance of parole? Put him to death. He certainly isn't going to "suffer" in jail.
    Exactly how I feel as well.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peetie27 View Post
    I think the scenario I stated implies that the answers to your questions all point to your guilt. I'm not going to go around in circles here. I'm not going to base a real life opinion on a Hollywood depiction.
    I edited after the fact.

    I'm not even saying that any of that is realistic, or likely. I'm just saying that you can't set this up under the impression that it'll be iron-clad. There will still be a margin for error when you are talking about the death penalty, and unlike prison sentences, there is no coming back from this.

    This is the very reason I'm against it. That, and the fact it's been proven to be completely ineffective to deter violent crime. Rapists don't rape less and killers don't stop killing just because the state they do it in might put them to death for it.
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