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Thread: Death Penalty

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rome 2.0 View Post
    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29552692.../#.UIgJrWkiHL4





    And that's just California.

    The cost to kill is absurdly high because everyone here is operating under the idea that when a man is convicted, he's dragged out back and shot. He's not. He's then put into the system and goes through 15-20 years' worth of appeals and trial processes before he ever reaches the needle. In that time, he racks up an insane amount of cost of care, transportation, etc. as illustrated above.

    The moment you get rid of that is the moment you open the flood gates to wrongful executions left-and-right.

    It is NOT a deterrent — proven.
    It costs the state MUCH more to (attempt to) kill them — proven.

    So why do it?

    Again — this is an outdated, broken system designed from an archaic line of thinking to serve as the fulfillment of avenging someone's death for their family and friends.
    It took him 20 minutes to take 2 lives. Why should he receive the luxury of being alive for 20 years awaiting trial? Take him out back and shoot him. Show him the same respect he showed for others. Buh bye.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikey37 View Post
    It took him 20 minutes to take 2 lives. Why should he receive the luxury of being alive for 20 years awaiting trial? Take him out back and shoot him. Show him the same respect he showed for others. Buh bye.
    See my first response in this. This, to me, is all part of a bigger, more important PRISON reform discussion. The death penalty cannot be fixed to work in a broken system. If the system is broken, it needs to be fixed. Changing a flat tire on a car without a working transmission does not make the car run any better.

    And what happens when you are so sure you've got it right, you drag the guy out back and shoot him, and bam, a week later DNA evidence comes back and it turns out you were wrong? What now? Ever see The Life and Death of David Gale?
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    The problem is that we're looking at this all wrong. We need to take a cue from big business here. Do a cost benefit analysis, purchase some insurance, then, as Mike suggests, take them out back and shoot them. If we add up all the costs associated with death penalty cases after the initial verdict and compare that to the cost of potential lawsuits the miniscule amount of times someone is mistakenly convicted and sentenced to death, I bet you'll find over the years that we've been throwing away a ton of money.

    The estimated cost of the Death Penalty system is $137M per year. Lets say we make one mistake a year (and that's high) would the wrongful death award approach that number? I doubt it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by NoControl View Post
    The problem is that we're looking at this all wrong. We need to take a cue from big business here. Do a cost benefit analysis, purchase some insurance, then, as Mike suggests, take them out back and shoot them. If we add up all the costs associated with death penalty cases after the initial verdict and compare that to the cost of potential lawsuits the miniscule amount of times someone is mistakenly convicted and sentenced to death, I bet you'll find over the years that we've been throwing away a ton of money.

    The estimated cost of the Death Penalty system is $137M per year. Lets say we make one mistake a year (and that's high) would the wrongful death award approach that number? I doubt it.
    Miniscule? Do you have data to support that? I watched a documentary on this a few years ago, and the evidence provided in it (it was some special on MSNBC) said otherwise. There's been a HUGE number of death row inmates who've had their sentences commuted or been outright released as DNA evidence proved their innocence.

    Remember Conviction? The Innocence Project is real, dude. http://www.innocenceproject.org/
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikey37 View Post
    It took him 20 minutes to take 2 lives. Why should he receive the luxury of being alive for 20 years awaiting trial? Take him out back and shoot him. Show him the same respect he showed for others. Buh bye.
    It's impossible for a modern state to create a law to judge people differently. You can't judge people you think(!) are guilty differently from the others.
    First of all you forget that law has to treat everyone equal! People fought for this right in Revolutions. (also for this fair unbiased trial thing, the media seems to hate so much)

    Also you would open the floodgates not only to wrongful executions, but also to abuse. Always remember that immoral people might come into power too. They better don't find an easy way to execute people already in existance, if they do.

    On the day you show me a way, to judge everyone without any remaining doubt, on that day I might agree with you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rome 2.0 View Post
    See my first response in this. This, to me, is all part of a bigger, more important PRISON reform discussion. The death penalty cannot be fixed to work in a broken system. If the system is broken, it needs to be fixed. Changing a flat tire on a car without a working transmission does not make the car run any better.

    And what happens when you are so sure you've got it right, you drag the guy out back and shoot him, and bam, a week later DNA evidence comes back and it turns out you were wrong? What now? Ever see The Life and Death of David Gale?
    What about cases just like this, where there really isn't a chance that they have the wrong guy?

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    Quote Originally Posted by NoControl View Post
    I'm all for the death penalty. I don't think we use it nearly enough. Here's how I would handle things. You can only get the death penatly if you're on your second strike. That is, you've committed and been found guilty of a violent crime in the past. If you are convicted of any violent crime, you lose a tiny bit of your freedom for the rest of your life in that we're going to put a tracking chip in you surgically. That way, if you commit a crime in the future, we're going to know for a certainty that you were there at the time. Of course, other evidence will have to prove guilt along with being there, but if you are then proven guilty of a second violent crime in a capital group (murder, rape, attempted murder) you are then executed. No appeals. Done within the week, get your shit in order.

    If someone's first crime is a capital crime (murder, rape, attempted murder) then the maximum is life in prison without the possibility of parole. This allows for appeals.
    What are your thought on the guy from Denver in the movie theater? The guy is 100% guilty, never committed a crime and murdered numerous people. Why should he be spared after all of the innocent people he killed?

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    Quote Originally Posted by NoControl View Post
    The problem is that we're looking at this all wrong. We need to take a cue from big business here. Do a cost benefit analysis, purchase some insurance, then, as Mike suggests, take them out back and shoot them. If we add up all the costs associated with death penalty cases after the initial verdict and compare that to the cost of potential lawsuits the miniscule amount of times someone is mistakenly convicted and sentenced to death, I bet you'll find over the years that we've been throwing away a ton of money.

    The estimated cost of the Death Penalty system is $137M per year. Lets say we make one mistake a year (and that's high) would the wrongful death award approach that number? I doubt it.
    So it's okay to kill innocent people, because it's expensive to make sure and we can always pay teir relatives later?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peetie27 View Post
    What about cases just like this, where there really isn't a chance that they have the wrong guy?
    I get that, but this is a slam dunk case. My guess is the vast majority are not. You can't base your legal precedent on the lowest common denominator. That's a recipe for disaster. You think states are paying out the ass now trying to kill people? Just imagine how much is tied up in legal matters for all those lawsuits for wrongful death.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rome 2.0 View Post
    I get that, but this is a slam dunk case. My guess is the vast majority are not. You can't base your legal precedent on the lowest common denominator. That's a recipe for disaster. You think states are paying out the ass now trying to kill people? Just imagine how much is tied up in legal matters for all those lawsuits for wrongful death.
    ^this

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    Quote Originally Posted by NYR2711 View Post
    What are your thought on the guy from Denver in the movie theater? The guy is 100% guilty, never committed a crime and murdered numerous people. Why should he be spared after all of the innocent people he killed?
    He's not being "spared". No one is. You talk about life in prison as if it's a cake walk. Like they're being let off with a slap on the wrist. This is federal prison we are talking about here.

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29552692...question-cost/

    But if convicted killers get life imprisonment instead of death, is that letting them off easy?

    Not a chance, says 52-year-old Gordon "Randy" Steidl. He lived on death row and then in the general prison population, after his sentence was commuted to life. He preferred his former accommodations.

    Steidl was released in 2004 after being exonerated of the 1986 stabbing deaths of a newlywed couple in Paris, Ill. He had an alibi for the night of the murders, corroborated by others. But he was convicted on eyewitness testimony provided by the town drunk and the town drug addict. Both later recanted.

    The state of Illinois spent $3.5 million trying to execute him, "only to end up giving me a life sentence," Steidl said. "And then 5 1/2 years after that, I was exonerated."

    He spent 12 years in a tiny cell on death row. Then he was thrown into "gen pop," with its snarling mass of an open cellblock, where the prospect of being stabbed, raped or worse loomed constantly, alongside deafening noise and psychotic cell mates.

    "If you really want to kill someone, give them life without parole," Steidl said in an even voice. He speaks of his troubled past as if it was trapped under glass or locked behind bars — visible but no longer able to torture him.

    "It's worse than dying."
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rome 2.0 View Post
    I get that, but this is a slam dunk case. My guess is the vast majority are not. You can't base your legal precedent on the lowest common denominator. That's a recipe for disaster. You think states are paying out the ass now trying to kill people? Just imagine how much is tied up in legal matters for all those lawsuits for wrongful death.
    I don't get why there can't be a dealth penalty for this type of case.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rome 2.0 View Post
    See my first response in this. This, to me, is all part of a bigger, more important PRISON reform discussion. The death penalty cannot be fixed to work in a broken system. If the system is broken, it needs to be fixed. Changing a flat tire on a car without a working transmission does not make the car run any better.

    And what happens when you are so sure you've got it right, you drag the guy out back and shoot him, and bam, a week later DNA evidence comes back and it turns out you were wrong? What now? Ever see The Life and Death of David Gale?
    I agree with you that it starts with a broken prison system, but do you know how hard it is to reform people? Your dealing with the scum of society that will do, say and act how they need to to get out, yet have zero remorse for what they have done, and want to get back out there to do what they were doing. These guys can easily fool who they need to to say they are reformed. The death penalty itself needs to be reformed too. A case where there is 100% proof should be a quick death sentence. Look at the case in Denver with the movie theater shooter. The guy murdered how many people, with no doubts that he did it. There is enough evidence to kill him where it wont be a wrongful death. Cases like this should be a death sentence within a year of his trial ending. Look at John Allen Muhammad, the sniper killer from DC, he was convicted in 2003, and put to death in 2009 after his appeals, and that is the way it should be. The appeals process goes on for way too long. If there is a hint that he might be innocent, then I agree that he shouldnt be killed right away, but certain cases, like what we had yesterday, should be a quick death sentence.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peetie27 View Post
    I don't get why there can't be a dealth penalty for this type of case.
    I'm not saying there can't, I'm saying that when you are dealing in the system we currently have, the death penalty is both costly and WILDLY ineffective, so what use is there in salvaging it when it's the system that's broken?

    I gave Mikey this analogy just before: if you have a flat tire, what use is fixing it if your transmission is blown? It's not going to get the car moving any quicker.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peetie27 View Post
    I don't get why there can't be a dealth penalty for this type of case.
    Because you would two laws for the same crime. That doesn't work.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rome 2.0 View Post
    He's not being "spared". No one is. You talk about life in prison as if it's a cake walk. Like they're being let off with a slap on the wrist. This is federal prison we are talking about here.

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29552692...question-cost/
    He is being spared. He is still getting 3 meals a day, still goes to sleep and wakes up everyday, still will get to see his family, will get to watch TV, read the books he wants, even get more of an education if he wants, and most likely will be kept confined away from general pop. What do the victims and there families get? There is no doubt that he is guilty, why not save tax payer money and kill him? Dont give him the right to say goodbye to his family when he didnt give his victims that chance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NYR2711 View Post
    I agree with you that it starts with a broken prison system, but do you know how hard it is to reform people? Your dealing with the scum of society that will do, say and act how they need to to get out, yet have zero remorse for what they have done, and want to get back out there to do what they were doing. These guys can easily fool who they need to to say they are reformed. The death penalty itself needs to be reformed too. A case where there is 100% proof should be a quick death sentence. Look at the case in Denver with the movie theater shooter. The guy murdered how many people, with no doubts that he did it. There is enough evidence to kill him where it wont be a wrongful death. Cases like this should be a death sentence within a year of his trial ending. Look at John Allen Muhammad, the sniper killer from DC, he was convicted in 2003, and put to death in 2009 after his appeals, and that is the way it should be. The appeals process goes on for way too long. If there is a hint that he might be innocent, then I agree that he shouldnt be killed right away, but certain cases, like what we had yesterday, should be a quick death sentence.
    I completely agree with you that the appeals process should be faster, and that alone would cut costs tremendously for most states, but it varies PER state. When you look at two cases, you are talking about two cases in two separate states, both of which could be sorta ahead of the curve in terms of the amount of appeals they're facing. I'm willing to bet the same doesn't happen nearly as often in California or Texas.

    Ultimately though, it comes down to cost for me. If the DP is not an effective deterrent to crime, and costs the state more to perform than it does to house an inmate for life, then the answer is obvious... at least to me.

    I'll worry about rehashing the DP process once we've actually dealt with real prison reform, not just a single aspect of it. The system is what needs to be fixed here.
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    Quote Originally Posted by NYR2711 View Post
    He is being spared. He is still getting 3 meals a day, still goes to sleep and wakes up everyday, still will get to see his family, will get to watch TV, read the books he wants, even get more of an education if he wants, and most likely will be kept confined away from general pop. What do the victims and there families get? There is no doubt that he is guilty, why not save tax payer money and kill him? Dont give him the right to say goodbye to his family when he didnt give his victims that chance.
    No he is not, dude. He's going into Gen Pop. What does this guy look like? Is he white? If so, he's fucked already. Unless he goes in and kills someone on his first day he's likely to be exploited for sexual, financial, etc. favors from the onset.

    You seriously consider life in federal prison as being "spared"? I'd rather die than live life in prison.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rome 2.0 View Post
    I'm not saying there can't, I'm saying that when you are dealing in the system we currently have, the death penalty is both costly and WILDLY ineffective, so what use is there in salvaging it when it's the system that's broken?

    I gave Mikey this analogy just before: if you have a flat tire, what use is fixing it if your transmission is blown? It's not going to get the car moving any quicker.
    Well, because all of your data supporting your argument against the death penalty is built on the premise of appeals.

    If certain criteria are met, why can't a prosecutor push to have someone indicted on a capital crime, and if found guilty, put to death? Not all cases would fall under this umbrella, not ones like this, where it's so clear who the killer is. There would be no basis for appeal, therefore the costs you are talking about would not be incurred, and it would in fact be less expensive to extinguish the vermin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by H-Dreamer View Post
    It's impossible for a modern state to create a law to judge people differently. You can't judge people you think(!) are guilty differently from the others.
    First of all you forget that law has to treat everyone equal! People fought for this right in Revolutions. (also for this fair unbiased trial thing, the media seems to hate so much)

    Also you would open the floodgates not only to wrongful executions, but also to abuse. Always remember that immoral people might come into power too. They better don't find an easy way to execute people already in existance, if they do.

    On the day you show me a way, to judge everyone without any remaining doubt, on that day I might agree with you.
    Is there a doubt that this guy committed this crime? Do they need to collect and examine DNA for this case? I'm not saying all but some are open and shut. And don't give me this equal shit. As much as you would like to believe that that's actually how it works, it doesn't. When you go through the system and see what it's like, call me. Supposedly everyone is innocent until proven guilty, correct? We can also talk about the media publicizing innocent people when they're first arrested but never following up those breaking stories when the accused person was in fact innocent but by then it's too late because their lives are ruined already. That's for another thread.

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