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Thread: Death Penalty

  1. #201
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    By this logic, we should never incarcerate, either.
    You can always rescind a wrongful imprisonment. You can't put life back into a body you've pumped full of poison, hung or electrified and then buried six-feet deep.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rome 2.0 View Post
    You can always rescind a wrongful imprisonment. You can't put life back into a body you've pumped full of poison, hung or electrified and then buried six-feet deep.
    Yeah? What if that person dies in jail?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    Yeah? What if that person dies in jail?
    One wrong doesn't make another wrong acceptable. Dying is natural, wrongful execution is not.

    A pretty recent and now often cited study puts the amount of wrongfully incarcerated death row inmates at around four percent, but that's a conservative estimate based on the figured. That's scary, because that's a lot of people about to die in jail or through execution for something they didn't do.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jules View Post
    One wrong doesn't make another wrong acceptable. Dying is natural, wrongful execution is not.

    An often cited study puts the amount of wrongfully incarcerated death row inmates at nearly five percent. That's scary.
    What if the person gets stabbed in jail? I feel like this two wrongs don't make a right argument is really generic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by H-Dreamer View Post
    You must be one of the few Americans I encountered on the web, who trusts the US legal system to always be right and to never abuse laws and Powers.
    You know what, no system is perfect, but you make do with the best you have. Innocent people die all the time in the US and every other country on Earth. It sucks, but it happens. So when some guy gets killed in a car accident just heading to work, we don't ban driving just because some innocent people are killed because of it. We don't ban ladders because people fall off them. We don't ban swimming pools because people drown.
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  6. #206
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jules View Post
    One wrong doesn't make another wrong acceptable. Dying is natural, wrongful execution is not.

    A pretty recent and now often cited study puts the amount of wrongfully incarcerated death row inmates at around four percent, but that's a conservative estimate based on the figured. That's scary, because that's a lot of people about to die in jail or through execution for something they didn't do.
    Wrongful execution isn't a wrong in the sense you're making it out to be. Except in some very rare instances, there is no intent to wrongfully execute someone. It's an accident in the same way as someone dying in a car crash. Also, the figures from that study are meaningless, as these wrongfully convicted inmates would still be in prison regardless of the death penalty. The only meaningful statistics would be in how many wrongful executions there have been in the modern era.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    What if the person gets stabbed in jail? I feel like this two wrongs don't make a right argument is really generic.
    That's really sad, but it feels pretty unrelated. It's sad enough that a lot of people get wrongfully convicted - and maybe this is for another thread, but I think the role of a jury plays a large part in this in the US - but if you agree that wrongful convictions happen, doesn't that change your mind about the justice system than deciding to give them a sentence that really can't be overturned?

    Quote Originally Posted by AmericanJesus View Post
    You know what, no system is perfect, but you make do with the best you have. Innocent people die all the time in the US and every other country on Earth. It sucks, but it happens. So when some guy gets killed in a car accident just heading to work, we don't ban driving just because some innocent people are killed because of it. We don't ban ladders because people fall off them. We don't ban swimming pools because people drown.
    The justice system isn't a swimming pool, a ladder or a car. If the best you have is a governmental legal system that has killed hundreds of innocent people over the last couple decades, maybe it's better to stop using that part of the system and stick with other severe punishment. It's not like the decision is between killing them or setting them free, it could be between killing them or never letting them out of a confined space again. Knowing that in case of new evidence you can let them out of that confined space, that would be my choice.

    If your car wouldn't function properly and would put you at great risk in the final gear, but it ran fine in all the others, would you park the car and not use it completely or would you just avoid the last gear until it was fixed? Because I would just avoid the last gear (death penalty) for as long as the other options (life imprisonment) would work, even though it might not be as perfect (ultimate vengeance) but it would still do the job (off the streets).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jules View Post
    That's really sad, but it feels pretty unrelated. It's sad enough that a lot of people get wrongfully convicted - and maybe this is for another thread, but I think the role of a jury plays a large part in this in the US - but if you agree that wrongful convictions happen, doesn't that change your mind about the justice system than deciding to give them a sentence that really can't be overturned?
    How is it unrelated? You're against the death penalty because what if the justice system got it wrong...But what if someone is wrongfully imprisoned for 50 years? Or wrongfully imprisoned and stabbed there, and dies?

    That's all ok, just because the justice system didn't "sentence death"?

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    Quote Originally Posted by AmericanJesus View Post
    Wrongful execution isn't a wrong in the sense you're making it out to be. Except in some very rare instances, there is no intent to wrongfully execute someone. It's an accident in the same way as someone dying in a car crash. Also, the figures from that study are meaningless, as these wrongfully convicted inmates would still be in prison regardless of the death penalty. The only meaningful statistics would be in how many wrongful executions there have been in the modern era.
    I don't see proving that more than four percent of convictions with capital punishment is useless at all. The argument is that people in prison could, in theory, be released when their innocence is proven, a dead man can't. The article explains that the amount of wrongful executions is hard to determine, but that...

    The team arrived at a deliberately conservative figure that lays bare the extent of possible miscarriages of justice, suggesting that the innocence of more than 200 prisoners still in the system may never be recognised.

    The study concludes that were all innocent people who were given death sentences to be cleared of their offences, the exoneration rate would rise from the actual rate of those released – 1.6% – to at least 4.1%. That is equivalent in the time frame of the study, 1973 to 2004, of about 340 prisoners – a much larger group than the 138 who were exonerated in the same period.
    Probably the more haunting quote:

    Gross and his co-authors estimate that 36% of all those sentenced to death between 1973 and 2004 – some 2,675 people – were taken off death row after doubts about their convictions were raised. But they were then put on new sentences, usually life without parole, that mean they will almost certainly die in prison.

    The study concludes chillingly that “the great majority of innocent defendants who are convicted of capital murder in the United States are neither executed nor exonerated. They are sentenced, or resentenced to prison for life, and then forgotten”.
    It seems that the only difference between capital punishment and life in prison is that with capital punishment the flawed justice system gets to determine after how many years or decades you die, instead of you just dying in prison of old age. It both means you will die never being a free man again, but the death penalty just gives them less of a chance at redemption in case of innocent conviction, which at four plus percent is frequent. I don't think one in nearly twenty people being wrongfully sentenced to execution is "rare", really.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    How is it unrelated? You're against the death penalty because what if the justice system got it wrong...But what if someone is wrongfully imprisoned for 50 years? Or wrongfully imprisoned and stabbed there, and dies?

    That's all ok, just because the justice system didn't "sentence death"?
    Of course that's not okay. Don't put words in my mouth. I just said: "It's not like the decision is between killing them or setting them free, it could be between killing them or never letting them out of a confined space again. Knowing that in case of new evidence you can let them out of that confined space, that would be my choice."

    Wrongful conviction is terrible, it happens a lot, it happens a lot in the US, and I can't imagine how horrible it must be to die in prison for whatever reason, if you did not commit the crime that put you there, but that is exactly why I dislike the death penalty (among other reasons), because it's the one punishment that can lead to an action by the justice system that cannot be overturned once it has happened. It's shit to be killed or die of natural causes, but I think it's worse to be executed if you didn't do it, because the system - not someone else, not their health, but the justice system, that is supposed to be just - took away their one chance at maybe one more free day.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jules View Post
    Of course that's not okay. Don't put words in my mouth. I just said: "It's not like the decision is between killing them or setting them free, it could be between killing them or never letting them out of a confined space again. Knowing that in case of new evidence you can let them out of that confined space, that would be my choice."

    Wrongful conviction is terrible, it happens a lot, it happens a lot in the US, and I can't imagine how horrible it must be to die in prison for whatever reason, if you did not commit the crime that put you there, but that is exactly why I dislike the death penalty (among other reasons), because it's the one punishment that can lead to an action by the justice system that cannot be overturned once it has happened. It's shit to be killed or die of natural causes, but I think it's worse to be executed if you didn't do it, because the system - not someone else, not their health, but the justice system, that is supposed to be just - took away their one chance at maybe one more free day.
    Relax, no one put words in anyone's mouth.

    I don't agree with your logic. If someone is wrongfully imprisoned and then dies there, it's the same exact fuck up as a wrongful execution. Yet you're excusing one and not another.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    Yeah? What if that person dies in jail?
    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    What if the person gets stabbed in jail? I feel like this two wrongs don't make a right argument is really generic.
    Then the tragedy is still complete, albeit unintentionally. Occupational hazard-type thing.

    My point is, being sentenced to 30-years for a crime you didn't commit still gives you the opportunity to prove your innocence.

    Being sentenced to capital punishment for that same crime you didn't commit gives you a far smaller window to prove that same innocence.

    And this says absolutely nothing of the arguments I've already presented in this thread about how executing a criminal, on average, costs the state TEN TIMES the amount it does to incarcerate them for life, and how the death penalty itself is not actually a deterrent for murder or violent crime (so, yes, it is about revenge/vengeance) as evidenced by the fact that so many states with it actually have higher murder and violent crime rates than states that do not.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AmericanJesus View Post
    Wrongful execution isn't a wrong in the sense you're making it out to be. Except in some very rare instances, there is no intent to wrongfully execute someone. It's an accident in the same way as someone dying in a car crash. Also, the figures from that study are meaningless, as these wrongfully convicted inmates would still be in prison regardless of the death penalty. The only meaningful statistics would be in how many wrongful executions there have been in the modern era.
    And execution isn't an accident in the way you are prescribing it to be here either. It happens with intent. A car accident does not. It's random, even if you can back track the series of events that lead to it prior.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rome 2.0 View Post
    Then the tragedy is still complete, albeit unintentionally. Occupational hazard-type thing.

    My point is, being sentenced to 30-years for a crime you didn't commit still gives you the opportunity to prove your innocence.

    Being sentenced to capital punishment for that same crime you didn't commit gives you a far smaller window to prove that same innocence.

    And this says absolutely nothing of the arguments I've already presented in this thread about how executing a criminal, on average, costs the state TEN TIMES the amount it does to incarcerate them for life, and how the death penalty itself is not actually a deterrent for murder or violent crime (so, yes, it is about revenge/vengeance) as evidenced by the fact that so many states with it actually have higher murder and violent crime rates than states that do not.
    What if you're convicted at 60?

    I'll remember your deterrent argument next time we're taking about enforcers.

    Sometimes it's not about deterrence. Some people just want their pound of flesh. You can relate to that, no?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    Relax, no one put words in anyone's mouth.

    I don't agree with your logic. If someone is wrongfully imprisoned and then dies there, it's the same exact fuck up as a wrongful execution. Yet you're excusing one and not another.
    Where exactly am I excusing wrongful imprisonment and dying in prison? Because I don't think I have done that. We are arguing about the death penalty here: I dislike it out of ethical reasons and I dislike it because of practical issues with flaws in the justice system. If anything I've made a case how wrong, yet how common, wrongful imprisonment is and how awful I find it. That's not excusing one over the other, quite the contrary.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jules View Post
    Where exactly am I excusing wrongful imprisonment and dying in prison? Because I don't think I have done that. We are arguing about the death penalty here: I dislike it out of ethical reasons and I dislike it because of practical issues with flaws in the justice system. If anything I've made a case how wrong, yet how common, wrongful imprisonment is and how awful I find it. That's not excusing one over the other, quite the contrary.
    You're right. Poor choice of words on my part. However, you are certainly arguing that one is more acceptable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    What if you're convicted at 60?
    How should I know? Maybe enough evidence is gathered for your first appeal just a few years in? We're talking about very specific (hypothetical) cases now. I'm sure there are some with greater and some with lesser chances, but every one of them would be vastly greater than being charged with capital punishment in the State of Texas. I know that much.

    Sometimes it's not about deterrence. Some people just want their pound of flesh. You can relate to that, no?
    Yes. And as I said earlier in the thread, you'd get it and then some by imprisoning someone for life for murder, for example, where they are going to be systemically tortured for the rest of their lives being forced to live in a 10x8' cell, often with another convicted criminal who may or may not extort or abuse them, where they risk rape, and other violent threats to their body every day of their lives, often repeated by the same person or persons (in the case of sexual abuse), where the noise in most cell blocks is enough to be prohibitive to sleep with any sense of regularity, etc.

    In what world is this not torture? I mean, sleep deprivation alone is a confirmed torture tactic.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    You're right. Poor choice of words on my part. However, you are certainly arguing that one is more acceptable.
    Yes, I am, for one simple reason: wrongful imprisonment can in theory be overturned, wrongful execution can't be.

    They are both absolutely awful, but one is even worse.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rome 2.0 View Post
    How should I know? Maybe enough evidence is gathered for your first appeal just a few years in? We're talking about very specific (hypothetical) cases now. I'm sure there are some with greater and some with lesser chances, but every one of them would be vastly greater than being charged with capital punishment in the State of Texas. I know that much.
    I'm sorry, but I don't see how this is good enough to support your argument, being that it's predicated on "Well they can always reverse a wrongful conviction", except when they can't.


    Yes. And as I said earlier in the thread, you'd get it and then some by imprisoning someone for life for murder, for example, where they are going to be systemically tortured for the rest of their lives being forced to live in a 10x8' cell, often with another convicted criminal who may or may not extort or abuse them, where they risk rape, and other violent threats to their body every day of their lives, often repeated by the same person or persons (in the case of sexual abuse), where the noise in most cell blocks is enough to be prohibitive to sleep with any sense of regularity, etc.
    That's not really an eye for an eye.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jules View Post
    Yes, I am, for one simple reason: wrongful imprisonment can in theory be overturned, wrongful execution can't be.

    They are both absolutely awful, but one is even worse.
    And my point is if someone is stabbed to death in prison, and then wrongful death penalty can't be overturned. And you're still subjecting somebody to this type of terrible abuse that Phil is talking about.

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