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Thread: General Political Thread: News, Slander & Debate

  1. #9961
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    Proof of what? That there is already fencing?
    Yup, along everywhere that Trump wants to put a wall.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rmc51 View Post
    Yup, along everywhere that Trump wants to put a wall.
    Go back and read what I wrote.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    Go back and read what I wrote.
    Ok. You said there is already a barrier there. Is that your proof?

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    Quote Originally Posted by rmc51 View Post
    Ok. You said there is already a barrier there. Is that your proof?
    That's not what I said.

    " There is already a barrier there. They're suggesting putting more barrier over areas people aren't coming in."

    They, meaning Trump.

    So I'll ask you again, what do you want proof of? Because if I have to go look up that there's already fencing on the border, that's a non-starter for a debate here. It's a known fact and should be table stakes to have a conversation about the border.

    And by the way, what you're calling a separate issue, isn't.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rmc51 View Post
    Ok. You said there is already a barrier there. Is that your proof?
    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    That's not what I said.

    " There is already a barrier there. They're suggesting putting more barrier over areas people aren't coming in."
    Ok? If you're suggesting your second sentence cancels out your first, it doesn't. Prove that there is a sufficient barrier along everywhere there needs to be. I read the other day that the NBPC President says a wall is needed. Seems like a qualified individual to speak on it.

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    https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/10/opini...son/index.html

    "The working class is losing under Trump" is title of opinion piece.
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    https://thebulletin.org/2019/01/the-...-anti-science/

    The 2018 list of the worst in anti-science

    It is two minutes to midnight, per Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists.
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  8. #9968
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    Quote Originally Posted by rmc51 View Post
    Ok? If you're suggesting your second sentence cancels out your first, it doesn't. Prove that there is a sufficient barrier along everywhere there needs to be. I read the other day that the NBPC President says a wall is needed. Seems like a qualified individual to speak on it.
    OK here's proof there's a barrier. Simple Google search.

    Does the wall deter crossings?

    Despite consistently high apprehensions in sectors that do contain fencing, Homeland Security Secretary Kirstjen Nielsen said at the White House on Wednesday that "everywhere we put up a wall, illegal immigration has been reduced 90 to 95 percent."

    Yet, CBP data shows that the number of people that agents have caught has decreased across the board — not just in areas where the government constructed barriers.

    Both the El Paso and Rio Grande sectors have physical barriers in place to prevent illegal crossings into the United States. Pedestrian fencing stretches to both sides of the city of El Paso in West Texas, with vehicle barriers along much of the rest of the New Mexico border. In south Texas, pedestrian fencing dots the area around McAllen and expands most of the way from there to the Gulf of Mexico.

    The Tucson sector, which covers most of Arizona and is almost completely blocked by vehicle and pedestrian fencing, has seen a recent increase in apprehensions. In fiscal 2018, CBP caught about 52,000 people there, including an estimated 5,000 unaccompanied minors.

    The sector of the Southwestern border with the fewest apprehensions, on the other hand, has almost no fencing. The Big Bend sector, starting in West Texas and extending about halfway down the state, is the largest individual sector guarded by CBP. The rough terrain of the mountain ranges and the Chihuahuan Desert make it a difficult place to cross. In fiscal 2018, CBP apprehended just 8,000 people there.
    https://www.npr.org/2019/01/10/68366...e-data-tell-us

    I think we should stop equating border security with a wall, because they aren't the same. Long story short, Trump wants a wall where people aren't coming in. Instead, invest those dollars in technology to stop drugs from coming in via the avenues we know they are coming in most.

    The wall is a political ploy. In reality, it doesn't matter why Pelosi is stopping it. It only matters why Trump is asking for it, because one political act begets another.

    Not all that said, if Trump really wants a wall, why won't he negotiate? Give in on DACA or something else? Dems already offered $2 Billion in funding in exchange for DACA. Trump said no, even when he had a majority. He's being a spoiled brat. That's not me calling him a name, that's me describing how he's acting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    OK here's proof there's a barrier. Simple Google search.


    https://www.npr.org/2019/01/10/68366...e-data-tell-us

    I think we should stop equating border security with a wall, because they aren't the same. Long story short, Trump wants a wall where people aren't coming in. Instead, invest those dollars in technology to stop drugs from coming in via the avenues we know they are coming in most.

    The wall is a political ploy. In reality, it doesn't matter why Pelosi is stopping it. It only matters why Trump is asking for it, because one political act begets another.

    Not all that said, if Trump really wants a wall, why won't he negotiate? Give in on DACA or something else? Dems already offered $2 Billion in funding in exchange for DACA. Trump said no, even when he had a majority. He's being a spoiled brat. That's not me calling him a name, that's me describing how he's acting.
    I mean, politically? Because it's not a victory, then. It's a mitigated loss. He can't simply chest-thump going into 2020 about how he made a promise and kept it because it has to be presented with the caveat of having had to compromise to accomplish it.

    I believe whole-heartedly he sees it as both a 2020 path to the Presidency as well as a monument to himself. Cutting any significant deal to accomplish it weakens the strength he wants it to be associated with.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    OK here's proof there's a barrier. Simple Google search.
    I am baffled how you think this supports your claim. Ironically, I had already performed a simple Google search as well and found that website. By doing a simple reading of it, it refuted your claim.

    Per USAToday:

    The Texas fencing is full of gaps.
    The border fence begins in Texas, but it's miles inland from the border's edge at the Gulf of Mexico. Elsewhere, fences start and stop with huge gaps in between. This is all pedestrian fencing, pictured in red on the map, designed to stop people from crossing.

    Huge stretches of border have no physical barrier.
    But the longest contiguous unfenced stretch of border — more than 600 miles total — is in the middle of Texas. There's no major city here on either side of the border.

    There is a lot of fence in flat desert areas.
    Hundreds of miles of fencing is only "vehicle barrier." Vehicle barriers, pictured in yellow on the map, are effective at stopping vehicles. These fences alone won’t stop people.

    Our team also documented other fences, labeled in green on the map. These are visible from the air but may not be federal security fences – they may be ranch fences or other private structures.

    Fence construction was dictated by geography, economics and legal factors. A wall would be, too.
    The Texas border is mostly unfenced because of treaty provisions, private-property rights, litigation and floodplains. Fencing was easier to build in New Mexico, Arizona and California, where the federal government controls a 60-foot-wide strip of land adjacent to the border.

    As of late 2017, there was no public plan for the route of a new border wall, but Congress was set to debate funding for building a wall. What happens next is up to Congress, the president and the country to decide.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rmc51 View Post
    I am baffled how you think this supports your claim. Ironically, I had already performed a simple Google search as well and found that website. By doing a simple reading of it, it refuted your claim.

    Per USAToday:
    Stop cherry picking and mis-stating.

    I never said there was a wall across the entire border. I said Trump wants to add barrier where there's no one coming in. Something the rest of my post illustrates.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil in Absentia View Post
    I mean, politically? Because it's not a victory, then. It's a mitigated loss. He can't simply chest-thump going into 2020 about how he made a promise and kept it because it has to be presented with the caveat of having had to compromise to accomplish it.

    I believe whole-heartedly he sees it as both a 2020 path to the Presidency as well as a monument to himself. Cutting any significant deal to accomplish it weakens the strength he wants it to be associated with.
    If Trump can show he can make deals, his base would grow.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    I think we should stop equating border security with a wall, because they aren't the same.
    Nobody is saying a wall solves all problems, or there wouldn't be additional funding for other things like a workforce, cameras, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    Long story short, Trump wants a wall where people aren't coming in.
    Yeah, because they know where everyone comes in from. They just turn a blind eye.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    ALSO invest dollars in technology to stop drugs from coming in via the avenues we know they are coming in most.
    Fixed that for you. It doesn't have to be one or the other. We are talking fractions of a percent of the national budget. It's not even close to breaking the government bank.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    The wall is a political ploy. In reality, it doesn't matter why Pelosi is stopping it. It only matters why Trump is asking for it, because one political act begets another.
    The motivation is political on both sides, as it usually is with all issues. Of course Trump wants to peddle this as a campaign promise fulfilled. It doesn't change the fact that funding for border security is still needed, and a better and more sufficient barrier would be helpful.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    Not all that said, if Trump really wants a wall, why won't he negotiate? Give in on DACA or something else? Dems already offered $2 Billion in funding in exchange for DACA. Trump said no, even when he had a majority. He's being a spoiled brat. That's not me calling him a name, that's me describing how he's acting.
    Wow. 2 billion dollars. What a deal. That's like offering a 5th round pick for Kevin Hayes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rmc51 View Post
    Nobody is saying a wall solves all problems, or there wouldn't be additional funding for other things like a workforce, cameras, etc..
    So stop acting like it does.

    Yeah, because they know where everyone comes in from. They just turn a blind eye.
    Proof?

    Fixed that for you. It doesn't have to be one or the other. We are talking fractions of a percent of the national budget. It's not even close to breaking the government bank.
    Don't need you to fix anything for me, dude. Thanks anyway.

    The motivation is political on both sides, as it usually is with all issues. Of course Trump wants to peddle this as a campaign promise fulfilled. It doesn't change the fact that funding for border security is still needed, and a better and more sufficient barrier would be helpful.
    Proof?
    Wow. 2 billion dollars. What a deal. That's like offering a 5th round pick for Kevin Hayes.
    That's actually how deals are made. Dems want to give 0, Trump wants 5, you split the difference.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    So stop acting like it does.
    Never once acted like a wall was the end-all be-all. Nice try.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    Yeah, because they know where everyone comes in from. They just turn a blind eye.
    Proof?
    There are thousands of people making it across the border every year. If we knew from where all of those people were making it through then it wouldn't be happening in the first place. That's just common sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    Don't need you to fix anything for me, dude. Thanks anyway.
    You couldn't proofread your own source for evidence, so it seemed like I did. And you're welcome.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    a better and more sufficient barrier would be helpful.
    Proof?
    You are just acting silly now that your source got blown up in your face. If you need to be told why people put fencing or walls around structures to help keep things out, then it makes sense you would also reference that USA Today bit and pretend it backs up your claim. What was the word? Obtuse?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    OK here's proof there's a barrier. it doesn't matter why Pelosi is stopping it. It only matters why Trump is asking for it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rmc51 View Post
    Never once acted like a wall was the end-all be-all. Nice try.
    Of course you did. You even refuse to acknowledge that most illegals are coming into the country legally, at first, by saying it's a different problem. No, it isn't. But compartmentalizing it helps your narrative.


    There are thousands of people making it across the border every year. If we knew from where all of those people were making it through then it wouldn't be happening in the first place. That's just common sense.
    Yes, legally.

    You couldn't proofread your own source for evidence, so it seemed like I did. And you're welcome.
    LOL OK.

    You are just acting silly now that your source got blown up in your face. If you need to be told why people put fencing or walls around structures to help keep things out, then it makes sense you would also reference that USA Today bit and pretend it backs up your claim. What was the word? Obtuse?
    You can't cry about pot shots if you're going to take pot shots. I don't know why you are not understanding that there are part of the border that are impassable, and that people are not coming in that way, but that's where Trump wants more wall. How can I make you understand that? What more needs to be said or shown?

    If you were putting a fence around your house, and there was a 4' wide tree in one section, would you fence that section? Is someone climbing over the tree to get in? Not likely.

    2+2 doesn't = 5, even if you keep repeating that it does. That's what this conversation feels like.

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    Obama called it a crisis in 2014. (Pick any source from the google listing). And the only defense is that "whataboutism" BS again

    https://www.bing.com/search?q=obama+...73cf5e23250887

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    Of course you did. You even refuse to acknowledge that most illegals are coming into the country legally, at first, by saying it's a different problem. No, it isn't. But compartmentalizing it helps your narrative.


    Yes, legally.

    LOL OK.

    You can't cry about pot shots if you're going to take pot shots. I don't know why you are not understanding that there are part of the border that are impassable, and that people are not coming in that way, but that's where Trump wants more wall. How can I make you understand that? What more needs to be said or shown?

    If you were putting a fence around your house, and there was a 4' wide tree in one section, would you fence that section? Is someone climbing over the tree to get in? Not likely.

    2+2 doesn't = 5, even if you keep repeating that it does. That's what this conversation feels like.
    You can keep talking like you know what the barrier situation is. The source you listed even disagreed with you. I'll listen to the last two Presidents of the National Border Patrol Council and the need for a wall both to replace inferior structures and to fill in the gaps where it is needed.

    And preventing people from overstaying their Visas is a separate problem from preventing people from illegally entering, no matter how much you want to pretend they are the same.

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    I was under the assumption that 41-44% of all illegals this year are currently the result of explores visas.
    Fact is that illegal immigration is way down. Arrests at the southern border peaked at 1.7 million in 2000, and latest numbers are at 400k.

    To me it’s economics.
    When the housing and agricultural markets explode, they come here to work. When our market reacts, illegal immigrants go home. Also factor in you can see a direct relation in regards to the Mexican economy.

    How about we focus on fixing the problem, rather than investment on “dealing” with he problem


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