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Thread: General Political Thread: News, Slander & Debate

  1. #10021
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    Quote Originally Posted by NY Chief View Post
    Illegal is against US law?????
    Uh huh. It used to be against the law for women to vote, too. And for blacks to attend white-only schools.

    "It's not legal" isn't a moral argument.

    So I'll ask again: why is this a "big problem"?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil in Absentia View Post
    Why? This is a legitimate question. What, exactly, is the problem with illegal immigrations? They don't qualify for any government assistance programs given a lack of citizenship/social security card, work low-paying jobs Americans don't want to work themselves, and are statistically less likely to commit crime than natural citizens.

    Why is it a "big problem"?

    It actually does cost money because a lot of them work off the books, and most of the money they make, they send back to their family back home, so its money not going back into the economy. And when they get sick and go to a hospital, someone has to pay that bill in the end.

  3. #10023
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil in Absentia View Post
    Uh huh. It used to be against the law for women to vote, too. And for blacks to attend white-only schools.

    "It's not legal" isn't a moral argument.

    So I'll ask again: why is this a "big problem"?
    Have a peek at their native countries, that should give you a pretty good idea why this is disastrous.

  4. #10024
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil in Absentia View Post
    Uh huh. It used to be against the law for women to vote, too. And for blacks to attend white-only schools.

    "It's not legal" isn't a moral argument.

    So I'll ask again: why is this a "big problem"?
    It USED to be but legislation was changed to fix it.

    And, it's not a moral argument. It's a legal argument.

    Cop stops you going 100mph. Did you break the law???

  5. #10025
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dunny View Post
    Have a peek at their native countries, that should give you a pretty good idea why this is disastrous.
    Why what is disastrous? Their native countries are, by and large, plagued with crime, corruption, and economic despair. So, the victims of said crime, corruption, and economic despair should be barred from entertaining the idea of bettering their lives and the lives of their children by emigrating to a nation that can possibly supply them that? So much for The New Colossus.

    Sounds like an argument right up Steven King's alley.
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  6. #10026
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    Quote Originally Posted by NY Chief View Post
    It USED to be but legislation was changed to fix it.

    And, it's not a moral argument. It's a legal argument.

    Cop stops you going 100mph. Did you break the law???
    You mean how legislation can be changed to fix this, too? Like adding more judges to aid the years-long wait associated with asylum-seekers?

    It seems to me the only reason this is a big problem is that Congress and POTUS want nothing to do with expediting this process. Because, as Dave pointed out before, they're far more interested in dissuading emigration in the first place. "Just don't come here," is their solution.
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  7. #10027
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    Quote Originally Posted by NYR2711 View Post
    It actually does cost money because a lot of them work off the books, and most of the money they make, they send back to their family back home, so its money not going back into the economy. And when they get sick and go to a hospital, someone has to pay that bill in the end.
    Seems to me this is an issue that could be remedied rather easily with a pathway to citizenship, rather than reaping the benefits of their cheap labor and then telling them they never should have come here when they get old and sick and need healthcare like the rest of us.
    "Everyone says you should be a good loser. If you’re a good loser, you’re a loser."
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    "Never be a spectator of unfairness or stupidity. Seek out argument and disputation for their own sake; the grave will supply plenty of time for silence."
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  8. #10028
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil in Absentia View Post
    reaping the benefits of their cheap labor
    I think we all agree that this is the (one?) root of the problem. Penalize those EMPLOYERS HIRING the illegals. But I know the Reps don't want to and I'm pretty sure the Dems are in on it, too

  9. #10029
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil in Absentia View Post
    Why? This is a legitimate question. What, exactly, is the problem with illegal immigrations? They don't qualify for any government assistance programs given a lack of citizenship/social security card, work low-paying jobs Americans don't want to work themselves, and are statistically less likely to commit crime than natural citizens.

    Why is it a "big problem"?
    Lost jobs for Americans (granted, low income Americans), education/medical costs for them and their children, additional criminals leaking in and living off the taxpayer's money in prison (no, I am not saying they are all criminals). Not to mention, it is pretty much a slap in the face to those that abide by the law and legally immigrate. And none of this is specifically about Mexicans.

    It's a damn shame that it is so difficult to legally immigrate here. But I'm not really okay with two wrongs making a right. Fix legal immigration. Don't make illegal immigration OK.

  10. #10030
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    Quote Originally Posted by rmc51 View Post
    Lost jobs for Americans (granted, low income Americans), education/medical costs for them and their children, additional criminals leaking in and living off the taxpayer's money in prison (no, I am not saying they are all criminals). Not to mention, it is pretty much a slap in the face to those that abide by the law and legally immigrate. And none of this is specifically about Mexicans.

    It's a damn shame that it is so difficult to legally immigrate here. But I'm not really okay with two wrongs making a right. Fix legal immigration. Don't make illegal immigration OK.
    I'm not not in favor of this.
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  11. #10031
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil in Absentia View Post
    Seems to me this is an issue that could be remedied rather easily with a pathway to citizenship, rather than reaping the benefits of their cheap labor and then telling them they never should have come here when they get old and sick and need healthcare like the rest of us.
    Good point. I don't know that it is "easy" to make this happen, because it would really require bipartisanship. I'm not convinced the two sides are capable of accomplishing much of anything right now or in the near future.

  12. #10032
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    Well, I'm speaking pragmatically here, not contextually. I agree that, at least right now, it's utterly implausible. But it doesn't have to be.
    "Everyone says you should be a good loser. If you’re a good loser, you’re a loser."
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    "Never be a spectator of unfairness or stupidity. Seek out argument and disputation for their own sake; the grave will supply plenty of time for silence."
    - Christopher Hitchens

  13. #10033
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil in Absentia View Post
    But it doesn't have to be.
    Well, Amen to that

  14. #10034
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil in Absentia View Post
    Seems to me this is an issue that could be remedied rather easily with a pathway to citizenship, rather than reaping the benefits of their cheap labor and then telling them they never should have come here when they get old and sick and need healthcare like the rest of us.
    I agree, but when you have people coming here by not going through the proper channels it affects the entire procedure negatively. The media and politicians don’t help in supporting people doing this and demonizing those trying to stop it.

  15. #10035
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    Quote Originally Posted by AmericanJesus View Post
    Ultimately, what kind of person sees men, women, and children fleeing crime and poverty and their reaction is, "let's put a wall in front of them so they can't get the help they need". And who justifies building that wall by saying that it will dissuade future men, women, and children from seeking help?

    I have to say, none of this sounds very Christianly.
    So what do you suggest, let everyone in?

  16. #10036
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    At the risk of speaking for Dave, I'm pretty sure his suggestion is to not put a wall in front of men, women, and children fleeing crime and poverty, and to not justify building said wall by saying it will dissuade future victims from seeking a better life.

    Oh, and maybe don't claim to be a Christian on top of it given this behavior is in direct contrast with scripture.
    "Everyone says you should be a good loser. If you’re a good loser, you’re a loser."
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  17. #10037
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    my baseless theory

    the shutdown will continue for a while. McConnell can bring a bill to the floor now that would likely have the votes to pass, and they could probably override any veto that comes from the president. But he doesn't want that. He's waiting for the President to look even worse. Then, they will invoke the 25th ammendment, oust him, install Penc3e as POTUS, then pass anything th3ey can to end the shutdown, look like heroes that saved the country from Trump and attempt to improve the image of the GOP heading towards 2020
    __________________________________

  18. #10038
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    Quote Originally Posted by NY Chief View Post
    I think we all agree that this is the (one?) root of the problem. Penalize those EMPLOYERS HIRING the illegals. But I know the Reps don't want to and I'm pretty sure the Dems are in on it, too
    what's ironic is that a lot of times, the people hiring those who came here ilegally are farmers who are more likely to support trump.
    __________________________________

  19. #10039
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    Quote Originally Posted by CCCP View Post
    So what do you suggest, let everyone in?
    I suggest sensible immigration policies that secure the borders to prevent just anyone from coming over but allows for immigration for humanitarian and U.S. economic reasons. To accomplish that, I would bring together the stakeholders along the border along with advocates for different oppressed groups who often try to emigrate here from depressed regions. I'd want to get input from those who have first hand experience in securing the border, the ordinary citizens who live along the border and see affects first hand, that sort of thing.

    What I don't want to see is a half-baked solution based on a campaign slogan. Campaign slogans are designed to attract voters, not solve complex world problems. And I don't value the opinion of the general population here which has no first hand knowledge of the realities at the border nor the suffering of migrants fleeing their homes.
    Frisbeetarianism is the belief that when you die, your soul goes up on the roof and gets stuck. George Carlin

  20. #10040
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlairBettsBlocksEverything View Post
    what's ironic is that a lot of times, the people hiring those who came here ilegally are farmers who are more likely to support trump.
    Farms are only about half of illegal immigrant workers.

    People forget that service industries (hotels, travel, etc.) - particularly in blue leaning cities - are totally dependent on migrant workers. That often gets left out of the discussion.
    Last edited by Future; 01-14-2019 at 11:42 AM.

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