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    Quote Originally Posted by AliveIn94 View Post
    I made some other points too. Also, I presume your Christians comment relates to abortion 'rights'. If so, I'll go into to that issue. As I understand it, the possible( unlikely in my view) plan for overturning Roe v. Wade would result in returning the law to the states, which would then rely on Representatives and Senators to pass it statewide. Federalism, put this way, can be criticized, which is fair, but I believe what will result is INCREASED engagement from voters that want to overturn it. The logic then follows that the more folks that vote, the more representative our government becomes. I welcome your critiques, if you have any.

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    Roe v Wade needs to me mandated at a Federal level or you'd just have people crossing state lines to get abortions.

    Point this originated from is the conservative/Christian right saying "I believe this, so the law should be that", instead of "Think abortion is murder? Don't get an abortion."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil in Absentia View Post
    I'll say it again: lose the fucking electoral college. This is not incongruent with a democratic republic. National decisions being made by minority leaders who represent minority segments of the population is.

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    You want to further alienate the people who voted Trump and allow the 1% to have even more influence, go ahead and do this. This is such a city-biased approach that I can't honestly believe anyone would support it.

    New York, of all places, is such a good example for why this is a bad idea. NYC area has just under half the amount of NY voters, but controls statewide voting results entirely. It is not representative, at all, of the 10+ million people who live north of Dutchess county.

    By preferring a popular vote, you're basically just giving legs to socialist policy, because every poor person and uneducated immigrant in NYC, Chicago, LA, Philly is going to vote for the party who gives them the most handouts and at the same time, those legislators will have to pander to the 1% population that lives in those areas and will only financially support candidates when they get tax breaks. It would absolutely crush the middle class who lives outside of population dense areas.
    Last edited by Future; 10-09-2018 at 10:24 AM.

  3. #9643
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil in Absentia View Post
    Senators who voted to confirm Justice Kavanaugh represent 143 million people

    Senators who voted no to Justice Kavanaugh represent 181 million people, according to GovTrack.

    4/6 of the last Supreme Court justices were selected by Presidents that WON the popular vote.

    I'll say it again: lose the fucking electoral college. This is not incongruent with a democratic republic. National decisions being made by minority leaders who represent minority segments of the population is.


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    Maher has been saying this for awhile.

    Neither Bush nor Trump won the popular vote. Garland should be a SCOTUS, and great chance the court would be 8/2 liberal tilt.

    The will of the majority is not reflected here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    Roe v Wade needs to me mandated at a Federal level or you'd just have people crossing state lines to get abortions.

    Point this originated from is the conservative/Christian right saying "I believe this, so the law should be that", instead of "Think abortion is murder? Don't get an abortion."
    This is not a good argument. If someone believes an act is truly murder, you cannot expect them to not have problems with letting it go as a "personal decision". I would have a problem if someone said it was murder and didnt fight for it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Future View Post
    You want to further alienate the people who voted Trump and allow the 1% to have even more influence, go ahead and do this. This is such a city-biased approach that I can't honestly believe anyone would support it.

    New York, of all places, is such a good example for why this is a bad idea. NYC area has just under half the amount of NY voters, but controls statewide voting results entirely. It is not representative, at all, of the 10+ million people who live north of Dutchess county.
    It doesn't have to be, Mike. It's representative of the State. That's why we send Senators and representatives from each, not from each county, or area.

    If the 10+ million people who live north of Dutchess are upset by something, let them voice that opinion and seek local representation who can also speak on their behalf. If their gripe is valid, there's little reason it shouldn't be adopted by the State.

    The same would hold true of every other major metropolitan city where — shocker — the majority of the population of the country happen to live.

    By preferring a popular vote, you're basically just giving legs to socialist policy, because every poor person and uneducated immigrant in NYC, Chicago, LA, Philly is going to vote for the party who gives them the most handouts and at the same time, those legislators will have to pander to the 1% population that lives in those areas and will only financially support candidates when they get tax breaks. It would absolutely crush the middle class who lives outside of population dense areas.
    Your pessimism is palpable. Anything else you wish to declare without evidence, Donald?

    By preferring a popular vote, I'm giving voice to the will of the majority. Not the will of the gerrymandered, voter-suppression-fueled elected minority leaders of a minority populus.

    But, by all means, explain to me why the Dakotas (of which there need not be two) send the same number of representatives as California, who are the fifth-largest economy in the fucking world.
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    Quote Originally Posted by rmc51 View Post
    This is not a good argument. If someone believes an act is truly murder, you cannot expect them to not have problems with letting it go as a "personal decision". I would have a problem if someone said it was murder and didnt fight for it.
    What bad idea could this not be used to support? What if someone believes homosexuality is a cardinal sin?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    Maher has been saying this for awhile.

    Neither Bush nor Trump won the popular vote. Garland should be a SCOTUS, and great chance the court would be 8/2 liberal tilt.

    The will of the majority is not reflected here.
    Which would, surprising as it may seem, actually reflect the will of the people. Despite the current state of affairs, the majority of Americans are for liberal policies and principles like the expansion of Medicare, a favorable view on immigration, gun control laws, same-sex marriage, abortion rights, etc.

    http://prospect.org/article/most-ame...80%99t-know-it
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil in Absentia View Post
    Which would, surprising as it may seem, actually reflect the will of the people. Despite the current state of affairs, the majority of Americans are for liberal policies and principles like the expansion of Medicare, a favorable view on immigration, gun control laws, same-sex marriage, abortion rights, etc.

    http://prospect.org/article/most-ame...80%99t-know-it
    I agree with you in part. The main thing is the way people think it should be done, and that is the main issues people have with both sides.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    Maher has been saying this for awhile.

    Neither Bush nor Trump won the popular vote. Garland should be a SCOTUS, and great chance the court would be 8/2 liberal tilt.

    The will of the majority is not reflected here.
    The problem is that this court shouldn't be liberal or conservative. You can't rule fairly when you feel one way or anther. These judges should be impartial and not be on one side or the other. This is why I hate that the President picks the judge, because both sides put in their guy who supports them, so no one is really impartial on the Supreme Court.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NYR2711 View Post
    The problem is that this court shouldn't be liberal or conservative. You can't rule fairly when you feel one way or anther. These judges should be impartial and not be on one side or the other. This is why I hate that the President picks the judge, because both sides put in their guy who supports them, so no one is really impartial on the Supreme Court.
    No, the judges should aspire to be impartial. They can't, in actuality, be impartial. No one can. It's like telling someone not to have biases. They're intrinsic to our nature. Acting on them isn't, however, which is why it's so, so, so, so, so incredibly important to not do this during a Senate Confirmation hearing.

    Let's not rewrite history to suggest that all appointments, or would-be ones (cough*Merrick Garland*cough) are equally guilty of flagrant displays of partisanship.
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    Quote Originally Posted by NYR2711 View Post
    The problem is that this court shouldn't be liberal or conservative. You can't rule fairly when you feel one way or anther. These judges should be impartial and not be on one side or the other. This is why I hate that the President picks the judge, because both sides put in their guy who supports them, so no one is really impartial on the Supreme Court.
    No, impartiality isn't the issue. Conservativism or liberalism is about how you interpret the Constitution. There is no one is the world who's completely centrist on every issue.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NYR2711 View Post
    I agree with you in part. The main thing is the way people think it should be done, and that is the main issues people have with both sides.
    The way what should be done? This system has, by and large, not changed in like 200 years. We are designed to elect representatives who perform their duties based on the will of the People (majority).

    Those who abuse this ought to be impeached and/or voted out of office immediately, and remedied by voting in those who do not. Even if every single DC politician was guilty of this, to whatever degree, it would still hold true.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    No, impartiality isn't the issue. Conservativism or liberalism is about how you interpret the Constitution. There is no one is the world who's completely centrist on every issue.
    Centrism, in this case, is an untenable position. It would suggest doing nothing, repeatedly. Like asking for the Supreme Court to become the Supreme Fence. Take your seats, justices, and never waver.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil in Absentia View Post
    It doesn't have to be, Mike. It's representative of the State. That's why we send Senators and representatives from each, not from each county, or area.

    If the 10+ million people who live north of Dutchess are upset by something, let them voice that opinion and seek local representation who can also speak on their behalf. If their gripe is valid, there's little reason it shouldn't be adopted by the State.

    The same would hold true of every other major metropolitan city where — shocker — the majority of the population of the country happen to live.



    Your pessimism is palpable. Anything else you wish to declare without evidence, Donald?

    By preferring a popular vote, I'm giving voice to the will of the majority. Not the will of the gerrymandered, voter-suppression-fueled elected minority leaders of a minority populus.

    But, by all means, explain to me why the Dakotas (of which there need not be two) send the same number of representatives as California, who are the fifth-largest economy in the fucking world.
    In New York, it is not representative of the state. The voting public is representative of downstate. Cuomo won 11 of 57 counties against Astorino, including Albany, Buffalo, Syracuse and Binghamton. He didn't even fucking win Monroe lol.

    You're not giving to the will of the majority. You're giving it to the will of population-dense, single-minded areas. And don't dismiss it based on "without evidence." Hilary, Booker, Cuomo, etc. will support the 1% from Wall St., healthcare, real estate, etc. give them tax breaks/favorible legislation while giving greater govt. support to low-income people in those areas. That money will absolutely come from middle class workers outside of those regions...you know it's what would and does happen, don't be obtuse. It's why upstate NY population is declining every year.

    I didn't say the electoral college is perfect. But acting like a pure popular vote is a good idea is a middle finger to less population dense, middle class areas.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil in Absentia View Post
    What bad idea could this not be used to support? What if someone believes homosexuality is a cardinal sin?
    One involves the taking of human life (from their viewpoint) and the other does not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Future View Post
    In New York, it is not representative of the state. The voting public is representative of downstate. Cuomo won 11 of 57 counties against Astorino, including Albany, Buffalo, Syracuse and Binghamton. He didn't even fucking win Monroe lol.
    It is representative of the state. The population. Not the districts.

    You're not giving to the will of the majority. You're giving it to the will of population-dense, single-minded areas. And don't dismiss it based on "without evidence." Hilary, Booker, Cuomo, etc. will support the 1% from Wall St., healthcare, real estate, etc. give them tax breaks/favorible legislation while giving greater govt. support to low-income people in those areas. That money will absolutely come from middle class workers outside of those regions...you know it's what would and does happen, don't be obtuse. It's why upstate NY population is declining every year.
    Ipso facto, the majority. The majority of the people in any given state live in population-dense cities.

    As to the rest, the answer is simple: vote them out and vote in those who reflect your values.

    I didn't say the electoral college is perfect. But acting like a pure popular vote is a good idea is a middle finger to less population dense, middle class areas.
    Except that it isn't, because it would better reflect the will of the People. A popular vote isn't perfect either. But it's marketdly improved over the idea of allowing gerrymandered districts, racked with voter suppression tactics, to determine who gets to represent any given State or even the nation. Especially given the political climate since Bush. That concept is helping to keep a minority group, who represent a minority vote, in power — power that is being weilded to not pass legislation that the majority of Americans want.
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    Quote Originally Posted by rmc51 View Post
    One involves the taking of human life (from their viewpoint) and the other does not.
    Uh, have you never read a single news report from the Middle East? Homosexuals are slaughtered for being homosexuals every day.

    Also, "human life" is a relative, nebulous term in the case of abortion. It's why there's an entire debate on the definition of "conception" and "when does life begin?"
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil in Absentia View Post
    No, the judges should aspire to be impartial. They can't, in actuality, be impartial. No one can. It's like telling someone not to have biases. They're intrinsic to our nature. Acting on them isn't, however, which is why it's so, so, so, so, so incredibly important to not do this during a Senate Confirmation hearing.

    Let's not rewrite history to suggest that all appointments, or would-be ones (cough*Merrick Garland*cough) are equally guilty of flagrant displays of partisanship.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    No, impartiality isn't the issue. Conservativism or liberalism is about how you interpret the Constitution. There is no one is the world who's completely centrist on every issue.
    When you have Judges coming out and giving their opinion on party lines, thats an issue in my eyes for a supreme court justice to act, and it happens on both sides. Your opinion shouldn't matter, and the process of picking one is one that is very political instead of picking one thats best for the people. I get no one is completely centrist, but they also shouldn't be voicing their opinions to the public on candidates or political preferences publicly. You shouldn't have someone that is more liberal or conservative as a justice, they should be more center than left or right, but that doesn't happen. This is just my 2 cents.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil in Absentia View Post
    The way what should be done? This system has, by and large, not changed in like 200 years. We are designed to elect representatives who perform their duties based on the will of the People (majority).

    Those who abuse this ought to be impeached and/or voted out of office immediately, and remedied by voting in those who do not. Even if every single DC politician was guilty of this, to whatever degree, it would still hold true.

    The way medicare or gun laws should be. You may feel one way while I feel another, and that is the problem. Everyone wants gun laws, but its the way we see them that is the issue. Everyone thinks their way is the correct way, when in fact its more of a mix of both ideas that will work the most. People are so divided on issues and fight with the other side more than they listen, and this is why we will never have any of these things like free medicare for all, truly good gun laws, immigration policies figured out.

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