playoffs: 2020-21 | EDSR | (E3) Boston Bruins vs. (E4) New York Islanders

I understand alll of that with some disagreements. However, I also think there needs to be progress, not just a repetition of in inconsistency. I don’t agree this year was “play the kids” type of year because the guys with top ice time were not the kids at all. The top forwards in terms of ice time are

Ziby

Panarin

Buch

Strome

Kreider

Defense is a little trickier since obviously guys go out in pairs but yes it is a more youthful showing

Fox

Trouba

Miller

Lindgren

Smith

Hodgepodge of others

 

This idea of it being so difficult to rebuild in NY is just something we make up. The Knicks have been rebuilding for 50 years. The Jets for the same. Hell, we have one cup in 80 years as you said and since 1926 we have only appeared in the finals 11 times. While I get that isn’t exactly the same as tearing it down to the studs and starting over, we aren’t remotely close to a team with a winning tradition like the Yankees. The fans are plenty plenty patient. Thank god for the Leafs because without them we would have the most pathetic franchise in terms of winning anything in the last 60 or so years. We upped them by 1. Yay us !

 

The problem is we have a legit dominant top 6 but one we overuse. The bottom 6 is made up of hopeful top 6 guys. Now I’m not remotely suggesting getting rid of Kakko or ALF but I am suggesting that it’s 100% time to cut ties with he likes of Gauthier and Howden. Bring in guys for set roles because right now this roster is made up very very one dimensionally. Free up the top 6 to rest instead of being out there always. The “play the kids” notion is fine but we don’t exactly do that.

 

If you want to say we can’t jump to step 6 then why did we bring in Panarin? Why retain Kreider? Why Trouba if he was going to cost that much? Those are three big money deals on a team saying “we have to go through a long process.” While no one could have predicted a flat cap, we all still could have said tying up 26m for three guys pretty unmovable until 2024 probably isn’t the greatest idea if you believe your drafted talent will take the next step eventually and also need to be paid.

Kravtsov, Lundqvist, Miller, Buch, Chytil, Shesh, Barron and I’m sure others were all drafted before. While I’m not saying they were NHL ready straight out, if you believed in them, why bring in or retain others that will be obstacles they have to try and hurdle if they want to take the next step? How are they going to take the next step if they can’t even get the playing time at all? Honestly if we were doing the long haul type rebuild in the first place some of those signings and re-ups shouldn’t really have happened at all. Chytil needs to play a hell of a lot more. Kakko, ALF. Krav, etc all the same.

 

I'm just numbering these to take the arguments separately:

 

1. If they had JUST played the kids above the the guys that you listed, they would have lost 45 games and you would have gone completely nuts by the end of February. There was always the balancing act of trying to win at the same time you're getting the kids the mileage they need, which I would argue they were legit successful at doing both things in a whacked out year like this one. How were they supposed to get the time, when people were demanding that the Rangers make the playoffs of bust?

2. Um, I've been watching the Rangers for a half fucking century and the fans are never patient. It's part of the culture. And sometimes that has been completely justifiable. My argument is that the impatience impedes their success because we repeated trade draft picks and younger players rather than give them the time and stability they need to develop. Because it is never fast enough.

3. I think your prescription is probably not that much different than Gorton's was. We amassed a huge stable of younger players. At some level we needed to see which horses could run and which couldn't. That was also an important part of this year. But the playoffs!

4. They brought in Trouba and Panarin to be foundational blocks around which they could build the rest of the team and have lead the team through the steps. They ultimately decided to add Kreider to that group. It was not a statement, IMO, that they were trying to jump to step 6. Gorton likely did not anticipate the lockdown of the cap. Who did 3 years ago?

 

You're trying to argue both sides of this - that they should have been better at both developing the kids and winning now- and the math doesn't really work for me. Are you saying they should have chosen winning over rebuilding? Or rebuilding over winning?

Kakko was 2nd in TOI among RWs behind Buch. Laf was 3rd among LWs behind Panarin and only 40 seconds less than Kreider. Laf's TOI increased and Kreider's decreased as the season went on. Chytil was 3rd among centers.

 

On D, Fox Lindgren, and Miller are all kids. That's 3 of the top 4. Hajek played 44 of 56 games. Jones was thrown in there right out of college.

 

Reunanen and Gauthier have no future here. The kids that are part of the future played alot. I guess you can complain about PP time if you want, but the Rangers have one of the best PP's in the league.

 

Kakko had 14:21, in a year after getting 14:17. Blackwell had 14. So while "2nd in RW TOI" sounds great, it misses a whole lot of context. If this year was "develop the kids", a healthy 16-17 minutes a game should have been the goal. Again, he was playing responsible hockey. Why were we playing Blackwell so much, is he the future? That's not a knock on Blackwell. He played well, but that doesn't support the kids narrative.

 

Lafreniere averaged 13:53 in ice time. Kreider averaged 17:24. I'm not sure where you are getting 40 second difference? Lafreniere's ice time was the lowest for a #1 overall pick in..well..I don't know how long. I went back to 2010 and all were significantly higher in ice time except Nail Yakupov. So, again, was this year about the kids, or about playing vets? Seemed more like the latter.

 

Chytil got 13 minutes of ice time in his 4th year in the league. Zibanejad had 20. Strome 18. 3rd amongst centers sounds great, until you look at the details and want to make the claim this was a year about the kids.

 

Already covered defensemen. Ice time was borne out of necessity, weirdly except for the reluctance to give Reunanen any real look at all...in favor of the trash I mentioned already.

 

Dismissing or writing off young players (Reunanen, Gauthier) is a poor practice to get in the habit of when developing talent. Usually it makes more sense to see what they can offer, rather than give out minutes to Jack Johnson, Anthony Bitetto, Brendan Smith, Colin Blackwell, Kevin Rooney, and PDG. It's a good thing Lindgren wasn't written off without a legitimate shot because he's not part of whatever is prematurely deemed as the future by fans.

I'm just numbering these to take the arguments separately:

 

1. If they had JUST played the kids above the the guys that you listed, they would have lost 45 games and you would have gone completely nuts by the end of February. There was always the balancing act of trying to win at the same time you're getting the kids the mileage they need, which I would argue they were legit successful at doing both things in a whacked out year like this one. How were they supposed to get the time, when people were demanding that the Rangers make the playoffs of bust?

2. Um, I've been watching the Rangers for a half fucking century and the fans are never patient. It's part of the culture. And sometimes that has been completely justifiable. My argument is that the impatience impedes their success because we repeated trade draft picks and younger players rather than give them the time and stability they need to develop. Because it is never fast enough.

3. I think your prescription is probably not that much different than Gorton's was. We amassed a huge stable of younger players. At some level we needed to see which horses could run and which couldn't. That was also an important part of this year. But the playoffs!

4. They brought in Trouba and Panarin to be foundational blocks around which they could build the rest of the team and have lead the team through the steps. They ultimately decided to add Kreider to that group. It was not a statement, IMO, that they were trying to jump to step 6. Gorton likely did not anticipate the lockdown of the cap. Who did 3 years ago?

 

You're trying to argue both sides of this - that they should have been better at both developing the kids and winning now- and the math doesn't really work for me. Are you saying they should have chosen winning over rebuilding? Or rebuilding over winning?

 

I really don’t think I’m arguing both sides. I really don’t. I would not have been upset if they lost 40 games on a roster without retaining a Kreider or bringing in a Panarin. With Panarin it’s only because of his age. He’s “old” to be given 11m cap hit on a team management felt is nowhere near ready. Trouba I get until you see his cap hit. Again, he’s now 27 I believe. For a “rugged” type d, that’s a lot on a team management felt wasn’t close to competing. Think Gerardi.

 

I’m saying they needed to pick a lane, not try to steer around in both lanes of winning or rebuilding. But whatever. I still til the die I die will say last year’s good 2 month stretch SHOULD have told them they are a hell of a lot closer than they realized. I was under the impression that once they retained Kreids they realized it too. Then they win the draft lottery. However that shouldn’t have made them go back into switching lanes again. That should have been the nice cherry on top, not reset anything. They should have seriously addressed faceoffs, leadership, and grinding roles this past offseason instead of JJ, Rooney, Bitetto, or hell, even Blackwell. They hit a HR with him but he’s 27 and likely won’t be here past next year when he hits UFA. They had some chips like Howden, Hajek, or Gauthier to sweeten a smaller deal for role players. These are guys that will never be given roles big enough to actually develop here. There were pieces in the free agency that we have discussed many times before for guys that would have addressed some things. I bet they were trying to address the pk but you don’t do that at the expense of everything else.

 

I’m not even suggesting they trade the farm. I’m suggesting it can’t just be a team of late 1st round talent that’ll never develop because of their presence of big horses like ziby, Panarin, kreider, Strome, and now even buch. All of them are either right in their prime or just starting it. Are we just going to build for 5 years from now hoping the then 25 year old corps will be in their prime duplicating the prime of the guys right now? We have that right now. Forward wise, Kakko and Laf should be two untouchables of the young offensive core and the rest don’t fit here.

We have our goalie. We have our full top 6. We have our Norris guy. We even have two extremely talented 1st and 2nd overall picks. That should be enough for management to have said “ok, now it’s time to add those complimentary pieces” and expect a hell of a lot better.

Kakko had 14:21, in a year after getting 14:17. Blackwell had 14. So while "2nd in RW TOI" sounds great, it misses a whole lot of context. If this year was "develop the kids", a healthy 16-17 minutes a game should have been the goal. Again, he was playing responsible hockey. Why were we playing Blackwell so much, is he the future? That's not a knock on Blackwell. He played well, but that doesn't support the kids narrative.

 

Lafreniere averaged 13:53 in ice time. Kreider averaged 17:24. I'm not sure where you are getting 40 second difference? Lafreniere's ice time was the lowest for a #1 overall pick in..well..I don't know how long. I went back to 2010 and all were significantly higher in ice time except Nail Yakupov. So, again, was this year about the kids, or about playing vets? Seemed more like the latter.

 

Chytil got 13 minutes of ice time in his 4th year in the league. Zibanejad had 20. Strome 18. 3rd amongst centers sounds great, until you look at the details and want to make the claim this was a year about the kids.

 

Already covered defensemen. Ice time was borne out of necessity, weirdly except for the reluctance to give Reunanen any real look at all...in favor of the trash I mentioned already.

 

Dismissing or writing off young players (Reunanen, Gauthier) is a poor practice to get in the habit of when developing talent. Usually it makes more sense to see what they can offer, rather than give out minutes to Jack Johnson, Anthony Bitetto, Brendan Smith, Colin Blackwell, Kevin Rooney, and PDG. It's a good thing Lindgren wasn't written off without a legitimate shot because he's not part of whatever is prematurely deemed as the future by fans.

 

Kreider played over 3 minutes a game on the PP. I was referring to even strength TOI. Also, all the other #1 picks you compared Laf to were on shit teams.

 

So are we benching Buch so Kakko and Gauthier can play more? Kravtsov came in and averaged 3 more minutes than Gauthier. Seems like a Gauthier problem and not a lack of playing the kids problem.

I really don’t think I’m arguing both sides. I really don’t. I would not have been upset if they lost 40 games on a roster without retaining a Kreider or bringing in a Panarin. With Panarin it’s only because of his age. He’s “old” to be given 11m cap hit on a team management felt is nowhere near ready. Trouba I get until you see his cap hit. Again, he’s now 27 I believe. For a “rugged” type d, that’s a lot on a team management felt wasn’t close to competing. Think Gerardi.

 

I’m saying they needed to pick a lane, not try to steer around in both lanes of winning or rebuilding. But whatever. I still til the die I die will say last year’s good 2 month stretch SHOULD have told them they are a hell of a lot closer than they realized. I was under the impression that once they retained Kreids they realized it too. Then they win the draft lottery. However that shouldn’t have made them go back into switching lanes again. That should have been the nice cherry on top, not reset anything. They should have seriously addressed faceoffs, leadership, and grinding roles this past offseason instead of JJ, Rooney, Bitetto, or hell, even Blackwell. They hit a HR with him but he’s 27 and likely won’t be here past next year when he hits UFA. They had some chips like Howden, Hajek, or Gauthier to sweeten a smaller deal for role players. These are guys that will never be given roles big enough to actually develop here. There were pieces in the free agency that we have discussed many times before for guys that would have addressed some things. I bet they were trying to address the pk but you don’t do that at the expense of everything else.

 

I’m not even suggesting they trade the farm. I’m suggesting it can’t just be a team of late 1st round talent that’ll never develop because of their presence of big horses like ziby, Panarin, kreider, Strome, and now even buch. All of them are either right in their prime or just starting it. Are we just going to build for 5 years from now hoping the then 25 year old corps will be in their prime duplicating the prime of the guys right now? We have that right now. Forward wise, Kakko and Laf should be two untouchables of the young offensive core and the rest don’t fit here.

We have our goalie. We have our full top 6. We have our Norris guy. We even have two extremely talented 1st and 2nd overall picks. That should be enough for management to have said “ok, now it’s time to add those complimentary pieces” and expect a hell of a lot better.

 

But that's what's happening...

 

Last year was what it was with the flat cap and waiting out the buyouts. They tried to sign Chara and Martin. The faced a lot of hurdles. They were the youngest team in the league. This summer they can add those complimentary pieces. The kids will be a year older.

The list proves that it's hard to win the cup, especially as more teams get added to the league. The Rangers were the best team to not win the cup from 2010 - 2015. Doesn't have anything to do with bad management. Winning the cup isn't easy.

 

I don't t think anyone believes it's easy to win but something tells me it should be esiser than once every 82 years and counting.

I don't t think anyone believes it's easy to win but something tells me it should be esiser than once every 82 years and counting.

 

The list I posted says it's not easier... :p

Kreider played over 3 minutes a game on the PP. I was referring to even strength TOI. Also, all the other #1 picks you compared Laf to were on shit teams.

 

So are we benching Buch so Kakko and Gauthier can play more? Kravtsov came in and averaged 3 more minutes than Gauthier. Seems like a Gauthier problem and not a lack of playing the kids problem.

 

So you still haven't answered the question. Was this season really about the kids, or was it about winning with the vets? It's ok if you don't have an answer. Apparently management and the coach didn't know what the fuck the goal for this season was either. They had one foot on each side of the doorway, and slammed their own nuts in the door. Now they aren't here anymore.

 

It is unreasonable to say the fans lack patience for a rebuild, or that was what this season was about, when management apparently couldn't commit one way or another either.

So you still haven't answered the question. Was this season really about the kids, or was it about winning with the vets? It's ok if you don't have an answer. Apparently management and the coach didn't know what the fuck the goal for this season was either. They had one foot on each side of the doorway, and slammed their own nuts in the door. Now they aren't here anymore.

 

It is unreasonable to say the fans lack patience for a rebuild, or that was what this season was about, when management apparently couldn't commit one way or another either.

 

Youngest team in the league. Kakko showed a big jump in play from year 1 to year 2. Fox huge jump in play from year 1 to year 2. Laf played much better as the season went on and worked his way onto the 1st line. Miller played in the top 4 all year. Hajek played most of the season. Jones and Krav given time when they got here.

 

The played plenty of kids. They also had the talent to win games. Both things are true.

Youngest team in the league. Kakko showed a big jump in play from year 1 to year 2. Fox huge jump in play from year 1 to year 2. Laf played much better as the season went on and worked his way onto the 1st line. Miller played in the top 4 all year. Hajek played most of the season. Jones and Krav given time when they got here.

 

The played plenty of kids. They also had the talent to win games. Both things are true.

 

They played a bunch of different kids, yes. They just didn't play the kids enough if that's what the season was about. Unless you expect to see growth in checking line roles, or not getting experience on the PP, or at the end of games, etc.

So you still haven't answered the question. Was this season really about the kids, or was it about winning with the vets? It's ok if you don't have an answer. Apparently management and the coach didn't know what the fuck the goal for this season was either. They had one foot on each side of the doorway, and slammed their own nuts in the door. Now they aren't here anymore.

 

It is unreasonable to say the fans lack patience for a rebuild, or that was what this season was about, when management apparently couldn't commit one way or another either.

Management knew what they were doing and said so out loud multiple times. They got their nuts cut off by an owner who was not alone in having ungrounded expectations for such an inexperienced team. They pursued both development and overall performance this year and both did well, especially considering the slow start and the degree of difficulty in the division - that you talked about more than once. I was always with JD that the real performance expectations started next year after Gorton got more cap space, had draft picks to deal, and a little running room. He had no cap flexibility this year. If you all think he was going to trade Gauthier and Howden mid-season for someone(s) that would have materially changed the fate of this team, I think you and Keirick are dreaming.

 

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Management knew what they were doing and said so out loud multiple times. They got their nuts cut off by an owner who was not alone in having ungrounded expectations for such an inexperienced team. They pursued both development and overall performance this year and both did well, especially considering the slow start and the degree of difficulty in the division - that you talked about more than once. I was always with JD that the real performance expectations started next year after Gorton got more cap space, had draft picks to deal, and a little running room. He had no cap flexibility this year. If you all think he was going to trade Gauthier and Howden mid-season for someone(s) that would have materially changed the fate of this team, I think you and Keirick are dreaming.

 

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It's Keirik fyi :)

And I don't think they should have been traded mid season. I think prior to the season there should have been internal conversations and decisions that said to move on from them and bring in other players that could be trusted as role players and ones you can use in opportunities more in line with grinding roles and specialty players that, every team needs to actually be a team. Even if the role players or specialty players weren't going to be here in a few years, our team cound have learned from a few guys like a Perry or a Boyle, or even a Simmonds or Martin or hey, retain Fast.

 

It's one thing to rebuild. It's another thing to set an inexperienced team up for failure and have the blind leading the blind.

It's Keirik fyi :)

And I don't think they should have been traded mid season. I think prior to the season there should have been internal conversations and decisions that said to move on from them and bring in other players that could be trusted as role players and ones you can use in opportunities more in line with grinding roles and specialty players that, every team needs to actually be a team. Even if the role players or specialty players weren't going to be here in a few years, our team cound have learned from a few guys like a Perry or a Boyle, or even a Simmonds or Martin or hey, retain Fast.

 

It's one thing to rebuild. It's another thing to set an inexperienced team up for failure and have the blind leading the blind.

Sorry about the spelling.

 

They didn't have any cap space last fall either. Jack Johnson and Kevin Rooney were the best they could do to round out the lineup. Do you think that's because Gorton thought that would be adequate to make the playoffs?

 

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There are so many layers of context missing from this debate.

 

The Rangers are one of the more successful teams of the 2010s in terms of playoff wins, IIRC.

 

It's incredibly short-sighted to try to cut that off at the news and say because we didn't win a Cup the team was a failure. With all those playoff runs there's a price. So far the price has been a rebuild consisting of missing the playoffs, making the play in, missing the playoffs again... Panic ensues!

 

Now there's also complaining that the best players played the most, and the kids SHOULD have played more ... At the same time as complaining we didn't make the playoffs.

 

Hard to keep track of the real issue here. Probably because there isn't one.

Sorry about the spelling.

 

They didn't have any cap space last fall either. Jack Johnson and Kevin Rooney were the best they could do to round out the lineup. Do you think that's because Gorton thought that would be adequate to make the playoffs?

 

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We’ll if they have limited cap space that is partly due to Gorton himself. How much in dead cap do we have? How much did we pay ADA to sit on his couch?

 

But anyway. Rooney signed for the same as Perry did, 750k. Martin and Simmonds both signed for 1.5, which is the same Lemieux was retained for only to be traded.

 

Let’s just say instead of Rooney and Lemieux, we had Perry and Martin. That’s the same cap hit but it’s not even close to the same look sending out a 4th line. Now let’s just even say Howden was replaced by Brian Boyle (I know, no one signed him so how good could he be). Or even a trade for a Glendening which requires another 1m but still. Now just think of how different even those three would have been on this roster compared to what they had. Hell, if Martin was a pipe dream, you could have swapped another option but you get the gist. I don’t think he was a pipe dream though because he didn’t sign until January but whatever. He’s just an example.

There are so many layers of context missing from this debate.

 

The Rangers are one of the more successful teams of the 2010s in terms of playoff wins, IIRC.

 

It's incredibly short-sighted to try to cut that off at the news and say because we didn't win a Cup the team was a failure. With all those playoff runs there's a price. So far the price has been a rebuild consisting of missing the playoffs, making the play in, missing the playoffs again... Panic ensues!

 

Now there's also complaining that the best players played the most, and the kids SHOULD have played more ... At the same time as complaining we didn't make the playoffs.

 

Hard to keep track of the real issue here. Probably because there isn't one.

I think it’s pretty easy to keep track of the real issue. The Rangers management aren’t picking a lane. Long term rebuild but bring in a Panarin at 27 and sign him to the second highest cap hit in the entire league. Long term rebuild but retain a 29 year old Kreider. Long term rebuild but play the “veterans” a hell of a lot more.

I’m sure we can go round and round forever but we all can agree with one thing. fuck the Islanders

I think it’s pretty easy to keep track of the real issue. The Rangers management aren’t picking a lane. Long term rebuild but bring in a Panarin at 27 and sign him to the second highest cap hit in the entire league. Long term rebuild but retain a 29 year old Kreider. Long term rebuild but play the “veterans” a hell of a lot more.

 

So easy a caveman could do it

When did Varlamov turn into the best goalie in the league?

 

 

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If I’m Boston I’m pissed off at the officials

 

 

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The officiating in this game has been just horrendous. By very far the worst I’ve seen so far in these playoffs.

Another PP goal. Islanders have 3 goals on 3 power plays. Boston is yet to get a power play. And that is squarely on the officials, who to this point, look like they have to be members of the Borrelli family. They have let A LOT go for the Islanders while penny pinching Boston. Just disgraceful performance.

I think it’s pretty easy to keep track of the real issue. The Rangers management aren’t picking a lane. Long term rebuild but bring in a Panarin at 27 and sign him to the second highest cap hit in the entire league. Long term rebuild but retain a 29 year old Kreider. Long term rebuild but play the “veterans” a hell of a lot more.

 

I can say you're not picking a lane either!

 

Whoever they signed, they did it because you don't get a chance at these players all the time. The idea was never that Panarin would lead us to a Cup. It's that he'd be good enough at 31, 32, 33 to contribute. We discussed this forever when they signed him. On top of that, we all know that they don't commit to Kreider long term if they knew they were getting Lafreniere.

 

So I don't blame them for being caught in the middle of a rebuild where they literally won two draft lotteries. Of course they would be in between lanes.

So easy a caveman could do it

More like only a caveman would think like that.

I can say you're not picking a lane either!

 

Whoever they signed, they did it because you don't get a chance at these players all the time. The idea was never that Panarin would lead us to a Cup. It's that he'd be good enough at 31, 32, 33 to contribute. We discussed this forever when they signed him. On top of that, we all know that they don't commit to Kreider long term if they knew they were getting Lafreniere.

 

So I don't blame them for being caught in the middle of a rebuild where they literally won two draft lotteries. Of course they would be in between lanes.

Uh, yeah. This is Monday morning quarterbacking at a gourmet level. (Mixed metaphor alert.)

 

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