Targets to Break the Rangers' Homogeneity?

You don't acquire Blake Coleman because he's an analytics darling. He's a shit-disturber. A disruptor. A presence. Casey Cizikas, Matt Martin, Cal Clutterbuck, Blake Coleman, Barclay Goodrow, Ryan Reaves, Keegan Kolesar, etc. all have negative possession metrics. Yet every one of them make a positive impression on their team. Because they're role players, and they play their roles well.

 

We have really got to stop with this idea that every hockey player on a successful team must be adept offensive contributors. There are other facets to the game that play out every playoffs that send those teams packing. Every. Single. Year.

 

Stop trying to build a Presidents Trophy team and start trying to build a Stanley Cup Champion. The latter requires qualities that go beyond simple shot share.

I never took Coleman to be that kind of player, but I also haven't been watching the playoffs much if at all. I wonder what it'd cost to sign him, coming off what seems like a crazy bargain of $1.8mil. No way he takes that again. Plus he really only fits if Buch goes, and does he do that job better than Buch? I think it's the guys around Buch that need to change, unless we change direction. He's got that little bit of grit and jam we'd want in the playoffs.

I'm not buying the idea that Lundkvist weighs an ounce over 180lbs. Have you seen photos of him? He's fucking tiny. So is Zac Jones. They're incredibly small. Noiceably small. Not Torey Krug small. Small small.

 

 

That’s Lundkvist from 2 or 3 years ago.

He just won the SHL “Norris trophy”.

At this age, his defense is better than where Fox was, not to say he’s that sly and will develop enough to jump over any other defenders

I never took Coleman to be that kind of player, but I also haven't been watching the playoffs much if at all. I wonder what it'd cost to sign him, coming off what seems like a crazy bargain of $1.8mil. No way he takes that again. Plus he really only fits if Buch goes, and does he do that job better than Buch? I think it's the guys around Buch that need to change, unless we change direction. He's got that little bit of grit and jam we'd want in the playoffs.

Goodrow is going to be cheaper, also physical, also kills penalties,fights.

And Ritchie is a bigger version of Coleman. And fights.

Both guys can play 3rd line minutes/roles. Both cheaper and add more of the size and physicality than Coleman.

I'm not buying the idea that Lundkvist weighs an ounce over 180lbs. Have you seen photos of him? He's fucking tiny. So is Zac Jones. They're incredibly small. Noiceably small. Not Torey Krug small. Small small.

They are both taller than Krug, so it's a matter of adding some muscle/weight.

I never took Coleman to be that kind of player, but I also haven't been watching the playoffs much if at all. I wonder what it'd cost to sign him, coming off what seems like a crazy bargain of $1.8mil. No way he takes that again. Plus he really only fits if Buch goes, and does he do that job better than Buch? I think it's the guys around Buch that need to change, unless we change direction. He's got that little bit of grit and jam we'd want in the playoffs.

Double that. Easy. He's probably going to make $4 million per. He's also not a fourth-liner. He's a regular third-liner who can move up as needed.

Goodrow is going to be cheaper, also physical, also kills penalties,fights.

 

And Ritchie is a bigger version of Coleman. And fights.

 

Both guys can play 3rd line minutes/roles. Both cheaper and add more of the size and physicality than Coleman.

Agreed.

They are both taller than Krug, so it's a matter of adding some muscle/weight.

I get that, but Krug also has a man's body. He's just not tall. When I see Lundkvist and Jones I see little boys. They look like 15-year-olds cosplaying as NHLers. That's scary, especially in the playoffs where the physicality ratchets up tremendously. They're going to get hurt if they can't gain some muscle/weight.

Just look at the Eastern rivals they'll have to go through to win. Imagine a seven-game series with the Pens, Isles, Lightning, etc. How many dump ins turned thunderous body checks from their third and fourth-liners before one of them just crumbles?

Again, this is why I keep talking about the difference between building for the regular season and the post season.

I get that, but Krug also has a man's body. He's just not tall. When I see Lundkvist and Jones I see little boys. They look like 15-year-olds cosplaying as NHLers. That's scary, especially in the playoffs where the physicality ratchets up tremendously. They're going to get hurt if they can't gain some muscle/weight.

 

Just look at the Eastern rivals they'll have to go through to win. Imagine a seven-game series with the Pens, Isles, Lightning, etc. How many dump ins turned thunderous body checks from their third and fourth-liners before one of them just crumbles?

 

Again, this is why I keep talking about the difference between building for the regular season and the post season.

You making this statement blows my mind.

Here's the comp of Troy Krug to Zac Jones...

I get that, but Krug also has a man's body. He's just not tall. When I see Lundkvist and Jones I see little boys. They look like 15-year-olds cosplaying as NHLers. That's scary, especially in the playoffs where the physicality ratchets up tremendously. They're going to get hurt if they can't gain some muscle/weight.

 

Just look at the Eastern rivals they'll have to go through to win. Imagine a seven-game series with the Pens, Isles, Lightning, etc. How many dump ins turned thunderous body checks from their third and fourth-liners before one of them just crumbles?

 

Again, this is why I keep talking about the difference between building for the regular season and the post season.

Sure, but it depends on the expectations. They will grow into a man's body. It's just a matter of waiting, and how long the Rangers want to wait. I suspect both will be able to play the position quite well immediately.

On the flip side, a guy like Miller has the size, but I think is well behind playing the actual position. More waiting for him too.

Sure, but it depends on the expectations. They will grow into a man's body. It's just a matter of waiting, and how long the Rangers want to wait. I suspect both will be able to play the position quite well.

 

On the flip side, a guy like Miller has the size, but I think is well behind playing the actual position. More waiting for him too.

Yes, Krug is 30. Of course he has more of a "man's body" than 20 year olds.

Same. At least, that's my hope. I'd rather move one of Lunkvist or Jones than Robertson or Schneider for exactly that reason. Knowing damn well I'm probably giving up more points in the deal. I don't care.

 

"I'm not looking for the best players, Craig, I'm lookin' for the right ones."

Like I've been saying, the problem is what the Rangers HAVE TO trade, is worth so much more than what they are looking to acquire.

Are they seriously going to deal top prospects in the league for bottom 6 grinders? They will lose these trades big time. Making such moves is really tough. Can't miss on this.

Getting a Casey Cizikas type for your top offensive D man prospect is poor asset management.

So unless they are planning on dumping one of Strome or Zibanejad to bring in a different look, I think the Rangers are stuck with small defenders until something comes up. Hopefully something comes up. They have to move these assets at their optimal worth, which I think is right now before teams see the logjam of prospects knocking at the door.

Realistically, who are the Rangers getting for sayyyy Jones and Buchnevich that fills team needs? You're sliding one of Kakko or Kravstov up to the 1st and 2nd lines, because that's where they NEED to play. You're adding either a RW or a Center. What do you do with Chytil if you're adding a center? Move him to the wing with the new center, with either Lafreniere or Kreider on the left? I guess that's not too bad. It'd have to be a really good center though, considering what they need to move.

Maybe they do go for Eichel and walk away from Strome in free agency or deadline dump. They really need to maximize the return for what they have to trade. I'd rather a bigger physical center, but are there any available?

You still need a 2ndary player that can run the PP. Not sending Miller and Trouba back out there. That was a mess.

 

Imagine if, ummm... Fox has to miss a game for potential COVID exposure..., and you have no one to run either PP?

I think only Boston won a cup with a terrible PP in the playoffs.

What if Trouba were to wake up? Let's see how he plays with a new coach. That dude is definitely better than what the Rangers have gotten from him so far.

Like I've been saying, the problem is what the Rangers HAVE TO trade, is worth so much more than what they are looking to acquire.

 

Are they seriously going to deal top prospects in the league for bottom 6 grinders? They will lose these trades big time. Making such moves is really tough. Can't miss on this.

 

Getting a Casey Cizikas type for your top offensive D man prospect is poor asset management.

 

So unless they are planning on dumping one of Strome or Zibanejad to bring in a different look, I think the Rangers are stuck with small defenders until something comes up. Hopefully something comes up. They have to move these assets at their optimal worth, which I think is right now before teams see the logjam of prospects knocking at the door.

 

Realistically, who are the Rangers getting for sayyyy Jones and Buchnevich that fills team needs? You're sliding one of Kakko or Kravstov up to the 1st and 2nd lines, because that's where they NEED to play. You're adding either a RW or a Center. What do you do with Chytil if you're adding a center? Move him to the wing with the new center, with either Lafreniere or Kreider on the left? I guess that's not too bad. It'd have to be a really good center though, considering what they need to move.

 

Maybe they do go for Eichel and walk away from Strome in free agency or deadline dump. They really need to maximize the return for what they have to trade. I'd rather a bigger physical center, but are there any available?

I don't think anyone is suggesting that. I see the debate as people saying they need to trade Jones or Lundkvist because size. I disagree, but I don't think those people are suggesting not seeking a good return for those kids. Simialrly, I'm not against trading them for the right return.

What if Trouba were to wake up? Let's see how he plays with a new coach. That dude is definitely better than what the Rangers have gotten from him so far.

He's still not going to run a PP for a playoff team. In WPG, he was a shooter, not a distributor or facilitator.

Sure, but it depends on the expectations. They will grow into a man's body. It's just a matter of waiting, and how long the Rangers want to wait. I suspect both will be able to play the position quite well immediately.

 

On the flip side, a guy like Miller has the size, but I think is well behind playing the actual position. More waiting for him too.

This is where I am with Phil.

How is Miller behind in playing the position? Because he's not putting up points or punishing players in open ice?

I'd say Miller is probably the teams BEST natural defender. Probably the best skater of the bunch. His size, skating, and defensive ability make him the teams 2nd most valuable D man. He has some growing to do all around, but he's already such a natural that you have to wonder where his potential ends. He wasn't even expected to make the team and wound up being the teams best D man for the first 1/4 of the season.

With what ever you think his short comings are, the kid is already a no doubt top 4 guy and more in line with what you want to fill this roster with.

This is where I am with Phil.

 

How is Miller behind in playing the position? Because he's not putting up points or punishing players in open ice?

 

I'd say Miller is probably the teams BEST natural defender. Probably the best skater of the bunch. His size, skating, and defensive ability make him the teams 2nd most valuable D man. He has some growing to do all around, but he's already such a natural that you have to wonder where his potential ends. He wasn't even expected to make the team and wound up being the teams best D man for the first 1/4 of the season.

 

With what ever you think his short comings are, the kid is already a no doubt top 4 guy and more in line with what you want to fill this roster with.

Well, last season showed what's been the biggest criticism of his game. Consistency.

3 games he looks like an all-star, 2 games he struggles, next 4 games he's looked like he's never played before, and the next game he looks like he doesn't want to be there.

I don't think anyone is suggesting that. I see the debate as people saying they need to trade Jones or Lundkvist because size. I disagree, but I don't think those people are suggesting not seeking a good return for those kids. Simialrly, I'm not against trading them for the right return.

I'm not suggesting anyone is. I'm saying that that's what it's going to have to be. You have to move what you don't necessarily need. Jones and Lundkvist are redundant. Kakko, Kravstov, and Buchnevich are somewhat redundant.

The assets they should be moving are worth more than what this team needs, which many here can collectively agree on, as far as what those needs are. Which is either a top line power forward which isn't available, or bottom 6 grit with defensive ability and faceoff skills. Or both...

I'm saying that there isn't going to be a fair return, when they are in the market for what they are. UNLESS it's for a top line power forward/center.

Well, last season showed what's been the biggest criticism of his game. Consistency.

3 games he looks like an all-star, 2 games he struggles, next 4 games he's looked like he's never played before, and the next game he looks like he doesn't want to be there.

He's 21. Of course he's going to be up and down. First pro season during a weird schedule of a season, probably put a hurting on him. He definitely tailed off mid season, but I think he will bounce back and show a bunch more. He's such a raw talent. It can only get better.

This is where I am with Phil.

 

How is Miller behind in playing the position? Because he's not putting up points or punishing players in open ice?

 

I'd say Miller is probably the teams BEST natural defender. Probably the best skater of the bunch. His size, skating, and defensive ability make him the teams 2nd most valuable D man. He has some growing to do all around, but he's already such a natural that you have to wonder where his potential ends. He wasn't even expected to make the team and wound up being the teams best D man for the first 1/4 of the season.

 

With what ever you think his short comings are, the kid is already a no doubt top 4 guy and more in line with what you want to fill this roster with.

There's no question hs ceiling is very high, but he's raw. I think his best attribute is his recover ability with the long reach to challenge pucks. He is also deceptively good offensively because he is a bit more limber than you'd expect given his size (that's what she said).

I think he's behind because he is frequently out of position. He's learning and it will take time. I don't consider him a top 4 D already. He was played there out of necessity for this team, not because he had already reached that status IMO.

He's 21. Of course he's going to be up and down. First pro season during a weird schedule of a season, probably put a hurting on him. He definitely tailed off mid season, but I think he will bounce back and show a bunch more. He's such a raw talent. It can only get better.

Don't get me wrong, his first half far exceeded my expectations. I was expecting more of what we saw in the 2nd half, which is why it didn't bother me.

But that's Miller.

That's been his issue since before he was drafted. It led to a drastic drop.in value last season in college when he looked very pedestrian for most of the season.

Don't get me wrong, his first half far exceeded my expectations. I was expecting more of what we saw in the 2nd half, which is why it didn't bother me.

 

But that's Miller.

 

That's been his issue since before he was drafted. It led to a drastic drop.in value last season in college when he looked very pedestrian for most of the season.

Miller reads as exactly the kind of player you take in the late 1st. He has a ton of potential, but it needs to be molded carefully.

That he made the NHL last year is nothing short of a good sign. That he performed well when he had a stable partner is a great sign. That he can't do it on his own or when his partner isn't a rock-solid defender is...hard, but probably to be expected for someone who has been learning defense.

I'd look at Brent Burns as the model.

 

I'd look at Brent Burns as the model.

I'm thinking more likea bigger, better skating Kevin Lowe. Not overly physical. Not tremendous offensively.

Burns is the best of both worlds. I don't see Miller developing the edge Burns has, nor the offensive abilities.

I guess I'd say he tops out as what Ryan McDonagh is NOW.

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