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Targets to Break the Rangers' Homogeneity?


Phil

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The roster construction is not the issue.

 

1st overall pick 2020

2nd overall pick 2019

MVP candidate last 2 seasons.

Top goal scorer last 2 seasons

Norris candidate

potential calder candidate

league leader in PP goals

2nd line C at nearly a point per game

Buchnevich hovering around a point per game throughout the season

 

 

Those are all different players on the team. The team that's outside a playoff spot.

 

Lol yeah on paper they should be a playoff team, even if it's the pre-21 Maple Leafs variety that gets bounced in the first round. Quinn might be why they aren't at least that, but half the other half of the roster is why they'd fizzle out anyway. Do you believe a new coach would get this team as is to be successful in the playoffs, or just make the playoffs?

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Really what killed them is the first 15 or so games of not having a goalie, Panarin being out (and not being great in the beginning either) and Zibanajad having covid for half the season. I dont know what Quinn is supposed to do to fix any of those three.
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Really what killed them is the first 15 or so games of not having a goalie, Panarin being out (and not being great in the beginning either) and Zibanajad having covid for half the season. I dont know what Quinn is supposed to do to fix any of those three.
And Chytil hurt, and Shesterkin hurt.
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Lol yeah on paper they should be a playoff team, even if it's the pre-21 Maple Leafs variety that gets bounced in the first round. Quinn might be why they aren't at least that, but half the other half of the roster is why they'd fizzle out anyway. Do you believe a new coach would get this team as is to be successful in the playoffs, or just make the playoffs?

 

Lets start with making the playoffs first. Get these kids a taste of it. On paper this team looks better than Boston and shittsburgh.

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Really what killed them is the first 15 or so games of not having a goalie, Panarin being out (and not being great in the beginning either) and Zibanajad having covid for half the season. I dont know what Quinn is supposed to do to fix any of those three.

 

Good coaches find a way. Shittsburgh had AHL defense for half the season and were doing fine. So did Boston. Boston has one offensive line.

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The roster construction is not the issue.

 

1st overall pick 2020

2nd overall pick 2019

MVP candidate last 2 seasons.

Top goal scorer last 2 seasons

Norris candidate

potential calder candidate

league leader in PP goals

2nd line C at nearly a point per game

Buchnevich hovering around a point per game throughout the season

 

 

Those are all different players on the team. The team that's outside a playoff spot.

 

I still think that JD was right in asserting that making the playoffs is not the correct measure for success or failure for this season - for the coach or the team.

 

You know that a team is more than the stats and draft years of its parts. We also can't separate being out of a playoff spot from who you're chasing. Every team ahead of them in this division has at least twice the NHL games played of the Rangers. The Caps have 3x regular season games and 3x playoff games. There are 13 Rangers on a 23-man roster with less than 3 full seasons of NHL experience. (Carolina, for example, has 5. The Devils may now have more after the Palmieri trade, but they suck.) The Rangers have 4 elite players that are largely responsible for the team being as close to the playoffs as they are now. Most of the rest have been highly inconsistent as they get their footing, learn to play together and ultimately learn to win. This was always going to be a season of ups and downs, but COVID, Zib, and Putin made it downright wacky.

 

The Rangers are 16-6-3 since March 13. They're getting what they need out of this season - experience in meaningful games against good teams - whether they make the playoffs or not. I'm not a big Quinn fan, but I don't think you can lay it all at his feet as if it was some equation on paper that didn't total up. If they had pulled out two of those early one-goal games, they'd be tied with Boston. Would that have fundamentally changed the character of Quinn's performance?

 

As much fan pain as it would have avoided, they couldn't just jump over this season and be an instant contender. They had to go through it, I think, to get to the level we ultimately want them to reach.

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Really what killed them is the first 15 or so games of not having a goalie, Panarin being out (and not being great in the beginning either) and Zibanajad having covid for half the season. I dont know what Quinn is supposed to do to fix any of those three.

 

Well, that's the thing... none of the Quinn issues are new. They're the same since day 1... and so is the team's lack of success.

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How is 16-6-3 - that includes victories against all of the teams ahead of them in the division - a lack of success? I mean, how could you have a bigger change in outcomes from the beginning of the season to now? Also, you rode the fence for a long time on Quinn. What caused you to come down so hard on this side of it now when they're actually winning? (If they come out as flat against the Isles as they did last time, I'll yield the argument.)

 

I agree that "skate, shoot, go to the net" is the problem, but it's the guys who are scoring all the goals who refuse to do it which raises the difficulty of imposing a complete double standard between lines. This also would seem to go to Quinn's dilemma of whether you coach to win games - where you have to rely on your elite skill guys and let Bread be Bread - or develop kids and implement a disciplined system that applies to everyone.

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How is 16-6-3 - that includes victories against all of the teams ahead of them in the division - a lack of success? I mean, how could you have a bigger change in outcomes from the beginning of the season to now? Also, you rode the fence for a long time on Quinn. What caused you to come down so hard on this side of it now when they're actually winning? (If they come out as flat against the Isles as they did last time, I'll yield the argument.)

 

I agree that "skate, shoot, go to the net" is the problem, but it's the guys who are scoring all the goals who refuse to do it which raises the difficulty of imposing a complete double standard between lines. This also would seem to go to Quinn's dilemma of whether you coach to win games - where you have to rely on your elite skill guys and let Bread be Bread - or develop kids and implement a disciplined system that applies to everyone.

 

They still have the same problems from day 1.

Mostly, lack of consistency, and lack of playoffs. Again.

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Lack of accountability that the top players get away with, while benching youngsters for less is probably at the tops, TBH.

 

From Zibanejad, Kreider, the power play - Quinn let these guys get away with shit efforts for more than half a season. And you want me to give him a ribbon? He, essentially, is the reason they are not in a playoff spot.

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They still have the same problems from day 1.

Mostly, lack of consistency, and lack of playoffs. Again.

 

Lack of accountability that the top players get away with, while benching youngsters for less is probably at the tops, TBH.

 

From Zibanejad, Kreider, the power play - Quinn let these guys get away with shit efforts for more than half a season. And you want me to give him a ribbon? He, essentially, is the reason they are not in a playoff spot.

 

Josh, I get you don't like the guy, but putting all of this at Quinn's feet is ludicrous, especially when you consider the outcomes.

 

How is Quinn supposed to fix Zib getting COVID? How is Quinn supposed to fix Panarin having to miss games to deal with Putin? How is Quinn supposed to fix Shesterkin and Georgiev having to shake off the rust? How's Quinn supposed to fix having his depth center break his hand? How's he supposed to fix that his clear best option beyond Buch and Kakko on RW wanted to finish his season in Russia?

 

We started slow. We have a top 5 PP (since January) and a top 5 PK. We have a top 5 offense in the NHL and we're getting damn close to having a top 5 defense. We've found consistency since mid-March - and when we have the off day, we're generally finding ways to make games competitive and win them. Maybe swapping Carolina and Boston in our division is apples-and-apples, but we went into this season thinking that we're 5th in the division and that'd be fine so long as we're competitive. Here we are - perhaps unfairly because of the rules of this season preventing us from rightfully taking a spot from the Stars/Predators - but right there. We're probably going to be the first team since the 1970 Canadiens to miss the playoffs with a +30 or more goal differential.

 

Further, we have Lafreniere coming to life. We have Kravtsov punching up the lineup. We have Kakko basically breaking the probability curves on expected outputs versus actual outputs and starting to look a lot like they player we drafted. We successfully integrated two key pieces on defense, maybe 3 depending on how you see Hajek. We lost our PPQB and found Adam Fox has a franchise-talent level performance output. We have Buchnevich and Strome finding new levels. We have Panarin outpacing everyone in the NHL but McDavid. We have Zibanejad getting healthy and returning to Record Breaking Form. Hell, Brendan Smith is setting personal scoring records, Ryan Lindgren is suddenly piling up apples, and Colin Blackwell is scoring at a 40 point pace.

 

It's probably fair to lament that this season isn't longer or isn't standard division setup, where at least we could be reasonably saying we're right there for WC2. It's certainly fair to lament our slow start. It may be fair to say we really don't have those guys that make a goalie uncomfortable in the paint - the one guy we do have is rather streaky. It's probably fair to ask what the fuck Quinn was thinking bringing Bitetto back in, or when he makes an odd change like putting Kevin Rooney's line out after pressing the Sabres in their own zone for two minutes. All fair criticisms.

 

It seems entirely unfair and frankly, uninformed, to sit here and imply that if only Quinn was fired we'd be in the playoffs and all would be well.

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I'm not reading all of that, sorry -

 

"It's not his fault that Zibanej" No - its his fault he kept playing him like he didn't have COVID.

 

But you have to be a COMPLETE IDIOT to play Zibanejad during the start of the season. He was HORRIBLE. That ALONE cost them multiple points in the standings. Same with Kreider now. Or the PP for the first half of the season. Or the shit OT lines, or the terrible spot start picking for goalie starts.

 

All these excuses - literally, COST them POINTS in the standings. He's literally the reason they are NOT in a playoff spot right now.

I don't understand how people refuse to acknowledge that these constant, and horrible decisions are why they are on the outside looking in.

 

"but they're winning" NO SHIT. They could have been winning all season.

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I'm not reading all of that, sorry -

 

The point of a forum is to read and exchange ideas. If you're looking for a soapbox, try OnlyFans.

 

"It's not his fault that Zibanej" No - its his fault he kept playing him like he didn't have COVID.

 

But you have to be a COMPLETE IDIOT to play Zibanejad during the start of the season. He was HORRIBLE. That ALONE cost them multiple points in the standings. Same with Kreider now. Or the PP for the first half of the season. Or the shit OT lines, or the terrible spot start picking for goalie starts.

 

Okay - so who are you playing over him? Are you putting Strome out there for 25 minutes a night to cover the gap? Are you playing Chyt...wait, he's hurt. Kevin Rooney? Colin Blackwell? If you're going to criticize the guy, give the viable alternate plan. There's not one here - and you know damn well that had Quinn started an overtime with Kevin Rooney in Zib's spot, the whole fanbase would have had a meltdown and it wouldn't have mattered because they'd still have lost.

 

As for the PP - 23.3% in the NHL since February 1. Again - what more do you want here? A 23% power play is more than acceptable.

 

All these excuses - literally, COST them POINTS in the standings. He's literally the reason they are NOT in a playoff spot right now.

I don't understand how people refuse to acknowledge that these constant, and horrible decisions are why they are on the outside looking in.

 

I'd probably argue the reason we're not in a playoff spot is that Zib got COVID and we had no personnel capable of filling his spot. I'd probably turn to the second reason being division alignment - which division aren't we making the playoffs in besides this one? Third, slow start. Quinn might be 8th or 9th on this list, and you'd be talking about select decisions in specific games that made no sense, like rotating Bitetto in against the Islanders.

 

"but they're winning" NO SHIT. They could have been winning all season.

 

I find it hard to believe that a team missing their top center, top wing, prospective 2c, PPQB, and for fits and spurts, their goalie, is going to be "winning all season". The only team that can do that is the Penguins, and we know the rules don't apply to them.

 

Tell me - if this were a full season, do the Rangers make the playoffs? I'm finding no reason to think they'd miss.

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The point of a forum is to read and exchange ideas. If you're looking for a soapbox, try OnlyFans.

 

 

 

Okay - so who are you playing over him? Are you putting Strome out there for 25 minutes a night to cover the gap? Are you playing Chyt...wait, he's hurt. Kevin Rooney? Colin Blackwell? If you're going to criticize the guy, give the viable alternate plan. There's not one here - and you know damn well that had Quinn started an overtime with Kevin Rooney in Zib's spot, the whole fanbase would have had a meltdown and it wouldn't have mattered because they'd still have lost.

 

As for the PP - 23.3% in the NHL since February 1. Again - what more do you want here? A 23% power play is more than acceptable.

 

 

 

I'd probably argue the reason we're not in a playoff spot is that Zib got COVID and we had no personnel capable of filling his spot. I'd probably turn to the second reason being division alignment - which division aren't we making the playoffs in besides this one? Third, slow start. Quinn might be 8th or 9th on this list, and you'd be talking about select decisions in specific games that made no sense, like rotating Bitetto in against the Islanders.

 

 

 

I find it hard to believe that a team missing their top center, top wing, prospective 2c, PPQB, and for fits and spurts, their goalie, is going to be "winning all season". The only team that can do that is the Penguins, and we know the rules don't apply to them.

 

Tell me - if this were a full season, do the Rangers make the playoffs? I'm finding no reason to think they'd miss.

 

It seems entirely unfair and frankly, uninformed, to sit here and suggest irrelevant scenarios.

 

All of those excuses have been discussed, in length. What's the point of re-posting them? Because the Rangers slipped by the worst team in the league a few times, recently?

 

Should we go back and evaluate when the Rangers season took a drastic turn for the better? Do you recall what that was?

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It seems entirely unfair and frankly, uninformed, to sit here and suggest irrelevant scenarios.

 

All of those excuses have been discussed, in length. What's the point of re-posting them? Because the Rangers slipped by the worst team in the league a few times, recently?

 

Should we go back and evaluate when the Rangers season took a drastic turn for the better? Do you recall what that was?

 

Obviously it was when DeAngelo was cut and Bitetto was put in. The Rangers are 25-16-4 since. :catfight:

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Okay - so who are you playing over him? Are you putting Strome out there for 25 minutes a night to cover the gap? Are you playing Chyt...wait, he's hurt. Kevin Rooney? Colin Blackwell? If you're going to criticize the guy, give the viable alternate plan. There's not one here - and you know damn well that had Quinn started an overtime with Kevin Rooney in Zib's spot, the whole fanbase would have had a meltdown and it wouldn't have mattered because they'd still have lost.

 

My gripe at the time was the insistence of keeping him on PP1. I think he finally got moved off temporarily, but the damage was already done in a shortened season. Could have had Buchnevich on it, as he was/is playing very well. Could have tried a kid, Kakko or Laf. Instead we watched Zibanejad literally whiff/shank how many one timers? A PP change alone might could have netted us 4-8 more points or so than we have now. They had 8 1-goal losses in their first 17 games.

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It seems entirely unfair and frankly, uninformed, to sit here and suggest irrelevant scenarios.

 

It's not irrelevant to ask you to come up with the better idea than "don't play your best center". If you haven't got an answer, then I think you've got your answer.

 

All of those excuses have been discussed, in length. What's the point of re-posting them? Because the Rangers slipped by the worst team in the league a few times, recently?

 

Last I checked, beating the bad teams is also part of making the playoffs. Also, last I checked, there's a difference between an excuse and an explanation. It's an excuse when there are better options. it's an explanation when there's not.

 

As I said earlier, if you haven't got an answer to the "better idea", it's an explanation, not an excuse.

 

Should we go back and evaluate when the Rangers season took a drastic turn for the better? Do you recall what that was?

 

Since we're apparently evaluating a rather explainable February, go for it. Is it when the entire coaching staff got COVID, because if so, there's like six weeks of season that are completely inconsistent with that explanation where this coaching staff was running the team to equal results.

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Obviously it was when DeAngelo was cut and Bitetto was put in. The Rangers are 25-16-4 since. :catfight:

 

Since Knoblach came up,

Panarin tied 1st for points in the league

Zibanejad 3rd

Fox 5th

Strome 10th

Buchnevich 20th

 

Team tied for 3rd in points

2nd best PP

 

 

 

Literally, all shit we "unfair[ly] and frankly, uninformed" complained about.

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My gripe at the time was the insistence of keeping him on PP1. I think he finally got moved off temporarily, but the damage was already done in a shortened season. Could have had Buchnevich on it, as he was/is playing very well. Could have tried a kid, Kakko or Laf. Instead we watched Zibanejad literally whiff/shank how many one timers? A PP change alone might could have netted us 4-8 more points or so than we have now. They had 8 1-goal losses in their first 17 games.

 

At one point he was shooting like 2%. It wasn't great. I can understand that, but I'd probably ask which righty shot was going to join that PP as the triggerman? We know the structure works - so you need personnel that meets the need.

 

It was like...Blackwell, Strome, nothing. Both of us would go with a "fuck it, put a lefty up there", sure.

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