gdt: [RS] (#47) Rangers v. Philadelphia Flyers // Jonesing for a Win

These aren’t hot takes.

Great. All of what you posted. So he’s given all of that, yet can’t make it translate into consistent hockey. What do you hear Quinn say in press conferences. “Play smart hockey.”

What do we do? Take penalties.

“Play north/south hockey”

What do we do? Play east/west hockey

“Need to get pucks to the net”

What do we do? Pass pass pass pass

No. He's not "given" all of that. He's "given" Lafreniere and Kakko. He made that happen. Give credit where it's due - he took good players and made them great, and great players and made them exemplary. Where he's struggled is taking extremely young forwards and putting them through similar growth paths, and even that's hard to read seeing as our youth is in positions where we have abundant talent ahead of them.

What has this team showed you to make you believe next year isn’t going to be the same inconsistent shit? It’s not even about seeing ALF and Kakko being the second coming. It’s about winning hockey games. Progressing forward. It’s just a rollercoaster. That’s Quinn. Rollercoaster of results, rollercoaster of accountability, rollercoaster of lines, decisions, and rollercoaster of effort. I’m positive Quinn is not the right guy to take the next step. All those positives you mentioned above. Still can’t get this team to the next level. This is his leveling off point. The sooner this organization realizes that,the sooner we can get this team to where they need to be.

This feels to be expected. We are, in spite of all of that, a very young team. A young team that can score in bunches and is starting to figure out defense.

We've had streaks - last Feb-Mar, this run over the past 12 games - where we've been consistently good. Remove COVID from the equation, get a little older - I haven't really got reason to believe that when we actually get to play 82 games in a season, we'll be on the outside looking in again.

As for the passing complaint - if you cut out the rust games in January, aren't we something like top 5 in the league on the PP? Do we really get to complain about that?

Ugh. Just made it feel even worse.

Tonight was nothing. The Rangers will miss the playoffs this season by 1 point.

All successes. All older but for Lindgren and Fox, which is why I said his U-23 track record is one player long. Lindgren isn't some stud. He's a good player and a quality partner, but he's not the engine on his pairing — Fox is.

 

And it's not "some key assets." It's all key assets. Kakko is on pace to produce less than his rookie season. Lafreniere is a tire fire. Chytil has shown marginal/gradual growth and is being thrown into effectively every trade proposal because he's not taking significant steps forward. Kravtsov, TBD. Andersson went nowhere fast. I find it hard to believe all of this is bad drafting.

 

Again, outside of Fox, none of the team's most important young players is making an impact.

It's not all key assets, because we have key assets that can buy a beer without getting IDed. Zibanejad, Buchnevich, Strome, and Panarin among them. Key and young are not the same. Further, you can't ignore that Kakko is literal light-years better defensively than he was last year. First rule of the NHL - don't be a liability. Check. Big fuckin' check.

If he wants his third line wings, his third line center, and his fourth line RW - all of whom happen to be critical, high value assets - to learn to play some defense instead of putting up a few more points because it'll be better in the long run - so be it. I'm not going to sit here and criticize good two-way hockey if the jump comes. I'd rather a team full of Marian Hossas than a team full of cherry picking showboats.

No. He's not "given" all of that. He's "given" Lafreniere and Kakko. He made that happen. Give credit where it's due - he took good players and made them great, and great players and made them exemplary. Where he's struggled is taking extremely young forwards and putting them through similar growth paths, and even that's hard to read seeing as our youth is in positions where we have abundant talent ahead of them.

 

 

 

This feels to be expected. We are, in spite of all of that, a very young team. A young team that can score in bunches and is starting to figure out defense.

 

We've had streaks - last Feb-Mar, this run over the past 12 games - where we've been consistently good. Remove COVID from the equation, get a little older - I haven't really got reason to believe that when we actually get to play 82 games in a season, we'll be on the outside looking in again.

 

As for the passing complaint - if you cut out the rust games in January, aren't we something like top 5 in the league on the PP? Do we really get to complain about that?

Young isn't a pejorative. It's a measurement of time. The Rangers' first round picks have done dick in the NHL across multiple drafts including back-to-back top-of-class picks. Maybe that's not Quinn's fault, but this is happening as other teams with other players taken in these same drafts are finding success the Rangers aren't. Makar, Heiskanen, Pettersson, Yamamoto, Svechnikov, Kotkaniemi, Tkachuk, Hughes, Farabee, Dach, Zegras, etc. None of these guys were taken first overall, either.

Who pays the price for that?

It's not all key assets, because we have key assets that can buy a beer without getting IDed. Zibanejad, Buchnevich, Strome, and Panarin among them. Key and young are not the same. Further, you can't ignore that Kakko is literal light-years better defensively than he was last year. First rule of the NHL - don't be a liability. Check. Big fuckin' check.

 

If he wants his third line wings, his third line center, and his fourth line RW - all of whom happen to be critical, high value assets - to learn to play some defense instead of putting up a few more points because it'll be better in the long run - so be it. I'm not going to sit here and criticize good two-way hockey if the jump comes. I'd rather a team full of Marian Hossas than a team full of cherry picking showboats.

Just what you want with the high-scorinig second overall pick billed as a "big, strong, and close to complete" — "not a liability."

"I mean, yeah, the Ferrari you bought is topping out at 65 mph, but you can't argue the handling is better."

Marian Hossa scored 15 goals in his rookie season and had 87 points through his first two years in the league. Kakko has 36. Try again. Aim lower. He's not even Jere Lehtinen, who had double that in the same time. Young Kakko is end-of-line Rick Nash. They're just lucky they're not paying him $8 million dollars for "competence" in place of production.

...and here are the Finalists for tonight's "Ozzy Quote of the GDT", sponsored by Stolichnaya:

Can they offer smith contracts for 15 games at a time? He only plays well when he’s due for renewal

Even his ass would miss the net.

A new entry. Woah! Welcome back Pete. It’s definitely not Strome

That's OK. Strome the answer to every other issue. ;)

Jones on the PP? Is Quinn in COVID protocol again?

Can I give negative rep to whoever called the JVR second goal?

...and the winner is Pete in this hilarious little exchange with Keirik on the Trivia question!! :rofl:

The Strome fan club salutes you, sir!!!

No. He's not "given" all of that. He's "given" Lafreniere and Kakko. He made that happen. Give credit where it's due - he took good players and made them great, and great players and made them exemplary. Where he's struggled is taking extremely young forwards and putting them through similar growth paths, and even that's hard to read seeing as our youth is in positions where we have abundant talent ahead of them.

 

 

 

This feels to be expected. We are, in spite of all of that, a very young team. A young team that can score in bunches and is starting to figure out defense.

 

We've had streaks - last Feb-Mar, this run over the past 12 games - where we've been consistently good. Remove COVID from the equation, get a little older - I haven't really got reason to believe that when we actually get to play 82 games in a season, we'll be on the outside looking in again.

 

As for the passing complaint - if you cut out the rust games in January, aren't we something like top 5 in the league on the PP? Do we really get to complain about that?

Where he’s struggled is getting consistent nhl results. Which is to be expected by an extremely mediocre coach. As for him not being “given” those things. I don’t know. I think you are romanticizing a lot. Panarin wasn’t made at all by Quinn. He brought his star with him. He’s just given free-er reign here because, well, he doesn’t listen to the coach. He had nearly 80 points under Torts. Let’s be realistic. Lindgren I think you are being extremely liberal with. Teams are not trying to game plan around staying away from Ryan Lindgren. That’s a huge stretch. Brendan Smith is a decent story but again, he’s exactly what he’s been his whole career. He’s not some revelation here.

You have a case with Strome, Zibanejad, Buch, Blackwell. You can’t say that about Fox because there is no way to know what he does without Quinn. Is McDavid good because of his coach or is he good because he’s McDavid? ADA is.....come on. He’s not on the team and is getting bought out. Even if you want to say Quinn helped him have his best season he also helped him have his worst.

Is there a rule that the flyers need to have x amount of red heads on the team or something?

 

 

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They have Gingervitis.

The David Quinn hot takes are getting ridiculous and I think it's time for a reality check.

 

Let's look at the facts:

 

Ryan Strome - basically on his last legs before Quinn. Currently 20th in the NHL in scoring.

Pavel Buchnevich - eternally in AVs doghouse. Currently 34th in the NHL in scoring with fuck all PP time AND a top PKer.

Colin Blackwell - 30 games of NHL experience prior to this season. 50 point/82 game pace

Artemi Panarin - point/game player prior to coming here. Has become a perennial Hart candidate

Ryan Lindgren - Third pairing D to top shutdown defender

Adam Fox - Supremely talented to flat out fucking elite

Mika Zibanejad - middle six C that looked like a slightly better Chytil to a top 10 C in the league

Brendan Smith - from "What the fuck happened to you" to "oddly steady glue guy"

Tony DeAngelo - from talented eclectic asshole to elite eclectic asshole

 

I fully understand that it's frustrating not seeing Laf and Kakko and Chytil and Kravtsov play like Mackinnon and Rantanen and Zibanejad and Kovalev but goddamnit, there's clearly a track record of taking "defensively responsible and offensively talented" and turning it into "great player" here and we have to stop acting like that's completely out the window because it isn't happening immediately with some key assets.

I'm probably taking your post out of context here, as I imagine it's a response to the idea that nobody develops under DQ. Apologies in advance, but I need to vent.

Because every time there's criticism of Quinn, someone produces a list like this. "Well, player x improved, player y improved, player z improved". It grinds my gears a little bit, because - whilst it's certainly true several players have improved their production - the problem here isn't players not developing, as much as it is the team not developing. It's the same team as it was on day 1. It's a team that goes where the wind blows. If you give them something, they'll often take it. But if you don't give them an inch, play a sound system and make them earn it they can't. It's a team that isn't closer to competing in any meaningful way than it was the day he took over. If you want to be a glass half full type of guy, there's incremental improvement in terms of point totals. But it's still a team that doesn't even have the foundation and structure of a team that could compete in the playoffs, 3 years in to the DQ experience.

You can nitpick and be unhappy with the development and usage of certain young players, but the main problem and the reason I'm fucking done is that there is no sign of the NY Rangers actually improving as a team. If the results were similar whilst seeing the team moving towards being an actual, solid hockey team with a viable foundation I'd have very little problem with where we are. But I just don't understand how we're meant to believe this is going to magically appear in seasons 4, 5 or 6 when we haven't seen even an indication of it in the first 3 years.

Queen, is that you? Welcome to the forum.

The Rangers burned it down to acquire young players and rebuild. Yes or no?

The Rangers hired a coach renowned for his NCAA bonafides and develpmental skills. Yes or no?

The Rangers have drafted two top-of-class players in back-to-back drafts, both of whom have now played for Quinn, one in his second NHL season, and neither shows significant promise. Yes or no?

The Rangers' other youngest talents, if they are showing progress at all, are showing it gradually. Yes or no?

Yes

No

No

I'm probably taking your post out of context here, as I imagine it's a response to the idea that nobody develops under DQ. Apologies in advance, but I need to vent.

Because every time there's criticism of Quinn, someone produces a list like this. "Well, player x improved, player y improved, player z improved". It grinds my gears a little bit, because - whilst it's certainly true several players have improved their production - the problem here isn't players not developing, as much as it is the team not developing. It's the same team as it was on day 1. It's a team that goes where the wind blows. If you give them something, they'll often take it. But if you don't give them an inch, play a sound system and make them earn it they can't. It's a team that isn't closer to competing in any meaningful way than it was the day he took over. If you want to be a glass half full type of guy, there's incremental improvement in terms of point totals. But it's still a team that doesn't even have the foundation and structure of a team that could compete in the playoffs, 3 years in to the DQ experience.

You can nitpick and be unhappy with the development and usage of certain young players, but the main problem and the reason I'm fucking done is that there is no sign of the NY Rangers actually improving as a team. If the results were similar whilst seeing the team moving towards being an actual, solid hockey team with a viable foundation I'd have very little problem with where we are. But I just don't understand how we're meant to believe this is going to magically appear in seasons 4, 5 or 6 when we haven't seen even an indication of it in the first 3 years.

There is zero argument to be made that players haven't developed under Quinn. Nothing rooted in fact aside from both Laf and Kakko having "not as advertised" rookie years. Meanwhile Hughes is struggling as much as Kakko and Laf is having a Seguin-like rookie year (production wise).

And you're [emoji817] right that the team has not gotten better. But also note the team isn't losing games because they have no depth scoring. They're losing games because they're homogeneous and can only play their game. If you stop them East/West you win. They also have a hard time starting games on time and putting in a 60 minute/200ft effort.

The fact that Quinn is up there admitting they don't listen to him is a huge red flag. Of course that's on him.

And (again) let's remember the team was playing long stretches with players recovering from Covid or on protocol, Panarin gone, Shesty Trouba and Kakko hurt, etc.

Coming back to homogeneous...The fact that the team is constructed of players who all play the same way? Who's that on? Quinn?

There is plenty of valid criticism of Quinn out there, but some of it is so baseless that it just becomes people like G and myself who are not defending Quinn but just simple fact checking. Shit, I don't like looking like I'm defending a guy who I wouldn't piss on were he on fire but facts are fucking facts. I don't care for him but there's no reason to weave a false narrative around anyone.

It just gets to a point where the constant Quinn bashing and whining is hard to take seriously and makes GDTs less enjoyable.

The final note on player development is that it doesn't fall to one person, it falls on many within the org and on the player himself. Now I don't know for fact that Lafreniere showed up out of shape, but I know he admitted to not getting as much hockey in as normal due to covid and he looks gassed all the time. So unless Quinn is outside Penn Station Krispy Kreme flagging Laf down before games, there's a group of people responsible for his pedestrian rookie year.

From our friend, Uncle Larry:

"Their record in one-goal games (including overtime and shootouts) is an astonishingly bad 4-15. They have yielded third-period leads in six games they have lost". :banghead:

https://nypost.com/2021/04/22/rangers-comeback-falls-short-vs-flyers/

Yes

 

Yes

 

No

 

No

The simplest way I can put it is like this: the Rangers hired a Dev coach and their youngest players aren't developing at a promising/significant rate but for one (Fox). Is that Quinn's fault? Is it there players? I don't know. But this kind of thing is what coaches get fired over all the time, because you can't fire the entire team.

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I'm probably taking your post out of context here, as I imagine it's a response to the idea that nobody develops under DQ. Apologies in advance, but I need to vent.

Because every time there's criticism of Quinn, someone produces a list like this. "Well, player x improved, player y improved, player z improved". It grinds my gears a little bit, because - whilst it's certainly true several players have improved their production - the problem here isn't players not developing, as much as it is the team not developing. It's the same team as it was on day 1. It's a team that goes where the wind blows. If you give them something, they'll often take it. But if you don't give them an inch, play a sound system and make them earn it they can't. It's a team that isn't closer to competing in any meaningful way than it was the day he took over. If you want to be a glass half full type of guy, there's incremental improvement in terms of point totals. But it's still a team that doesn't even have the foundation and structure of a team that could compete in the playoffs, 3 years in to the DQ experience.

You can nitpick and be unhappy with the development and usage of certain young players, but the main problem and the reason I'm fucking done is that there is no sign of the NY Rangers actually improving as a team. If the results were similar whilst seeing the team moving towards being an actual, solid hockey team with a viable foundation I'd have very little problem with where we are. But I just don't understand how we're meant to believe this is going to magically appear in seasons 4, 5 or 6 when we haven't seen even an indication of it in the first 3 years.

Also agree with this completely. Great post.

Brooks did us usual spot on Duguay's shitty podcast this week and basically said something to the effect of "this team either wins 8-1 or loses," because they're homogeneous and don't have another gear or ability to play another style or deploy another approach. It's why they make the Devils and Flyers look like chumps and then get snuffed out when they play the Pens or Isles.

He also went on to suggest they badly need some level of "grit/toughness/whatever" that they can add to their top-six, not their fourth like where it'll be mitigated. It's basically him banging the Josh Anderson drum he was for years. And he was right. He's still right.

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Josh Anderson is what Rangers fans wished Kreider was -- a consistent force as a complementary top-six player.

The difference between them is that when neither is scoring, only one can still be noticed in games.

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The simplest way I can put it is like this: the Rangers hired a Dev coach and their youngest players aren't developing at a promising/significant rate but for one (Fox). Is that Quinn's fault? Is it there players? I don't know. But this kind of thing is what coaches get fired over all the time, because you can't fire the entire team.

 

 

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The argument has already been debunked so I'm not spending more time on it other than saying I can make an argument that Laf and Kakko are the only underperformers based on expectations.

The David Quinn hot takes are getting ridiculous and I think it's time for a reality check.

 

Let's look at the facts:

 

Ryan Strome - basically on his last legs before Quinn. Currently 20th in the NHL in scoring.

Pavel Buchnevich - eternally in AVs doghouse. Currently 34th in the NHL in scoring with fuck all PP time AND a top PKer.

Colin Blackwell - 30 games of NHL experience prior to this season. 50 point/82 game pace

Artemi Panarin - point/game player prior to coming here. Has become a perennial Hart candidate

Ryan Lindgren - Third pairing D to top shutdown defender

Adam Fox - Supremely talented to flat out fucking elite

Mika Zibanejad - middle six C that looked like a slightly better Chytil to a top 10 C in the league

Brendan Smith - from "What the fuck happened to you" to "oddly steady glue guy"

Tony DeAngelo - from talented eclectic asshole to elite eclectic asshole

 

I fully understand that it's frustrating not seeing Laf and Kakko and Chytil and Kravtsov play like Mackinnon and Rantanen and Zibanejad and Kovalev but goddamnit, there's clearly a track record of taking "defensively responsible and offensively talented" and turning it into "great player" here and we have to stop acting like that's completely out the window because it isn't happening immediately with some key assets.

1st overall pick

2nd overall pick from the season before

MVP candidate 2 seasons in a row

Guy that led the league in goals per game last season, has had stretches as the top goal scorer in the league this season

Strome career high, close to PPG

Buchnevich career high in points, near PPG

Norris candidate

potential calder candidate in goal

Rookie dman exceeding expectations

3rd line center showing "great progress" offensively

an AHL journeyman with double digit goals

Still 10 points out of the playoffs

Literally mentioned everyone except Quinn's favorites. Even Pete admitted that the guys that have been successful are the guys that ~"arent going to change"

1st overall pick

2nd overall pick from the season before

MVP candidate 2 seasons in a row

Guy that led the league in goals per game last season, has had stretches as the top goal scorer in the league this season

Strome career high, close to PPG

Buchnevich career high in points, near PPG

Norris candidate

potential calder candidate in goal

Rookie dman exceeding expectations

3rd line center showing "great progress" offensively

an AHL journeyman with double digit goals

 

 

Still 10 points out of the playoffs

 

Literally mentioned everyone except Quinn's favorites. Even Pete admitted that the guys that have been successful are the guys that ~"arent going to change"

I'm probably taking your post out of context here, as I imagine it's a response to the idea that nobody develops under DQ. Apologies in advance, but I need to vent.

Because every time there's criticism of Quinn, someone produces a list like this. "Well, player x improved, player y improved, player z improved". It grinds my gears a little bit, because - whilst it's certainly true several players have improved their production - the problem here isn't players not developing, as much as it is the team not developing. It's the same team as it was on day 1. It's a team that goes where the wind blows. If you give them something, they'll often take it. But if you don't give them an inch, play a sound system and make them earn it they can't. It's a team that isn't closer to competing in any meaningful way than it was the day he took over. If you want to be a glass half full type of guy, there's incremental improvement in terms of point totals. But it's still a team that doesn't even have the foundation and structure of a team that could compete in the playoffs, 3 years in to the DQ experience.

You can nitpick and be unhappy with the development and usage of certain young players, but the main problem and the reason I'm fucking done is that there is no sign of the NY Rangers actually improving as a team. If the results were similar whilst seeing the team moving towards being an actual, solid hockey team with a viable foundation I'd have very little problem with where we are. But I just don't understand how we're meant to believe this is going to magically appear in seasons 4, 5 or 6 when we haven't seen even an indication of it in the first 3 years.

So spot on!

The only thing that I would add to it that you can legitimately put on Quinn about the lack of development regarding Lafrenaire, Kakko, Kravtsov, and to a lesser extent Chytil is their deployment. That comment that Quinn made about the Panarin/Strome line "needing a little more Jesper Fast" to justify his decision to plant Blackwell there instead of Kakko made me see red and illustrates perfectly where his mind is.

Not to take anything away from Blackwell; he has been a great story of finding value in the closeout bin and no issue whatsoever with his role as a bottom 6 guy that can slide up in a pinch. He is 28 years old though, he is likely not going to get better and you have assets there with considerably more upside. Didn't like what Kakko was giving him on that line, fine give your newly arrived Russian right winger an opportunity who certainly by the eye test has been doing everything that could reasonably be expected. All that he is doing is building value for Blackwell to be taken in the expansion draft this Summer.

Same gripe with Chytil, at what point do see what he can do with elite talent on his wing now that he has raised his production with less average ice time this season and almost no PP action.

These are absolutely straight lines that you can indict Quinn for the lack of development on the 4 under 23 prospects.

Bingo. This post is so spot on and I was writing it in my head until I read this. Wish I could rep it twice.

 

There is zero argument to be made that players haven't developed under Quinn. Nothing rooted in fact aside from both Laf and Kakko having "not as advertised" rookie years. Meanwhile Hughes is struggling as much as Kakko and Laf is having a Seguin-like rookie year (production wise).

 

And you're [emoji817] right that the team has not gotten better. But also note the team isn't losing games because they have no depth scoring. They're losing games because they're homogeneous and can only play their game. If you stop them East/West you win. They also have a hard time starting games on time and putting in a 60 minute/200ft effort.

 

The fact that Quinn is up there admitting they don't listen to him is a huge red flag. Of course that's on him.

 

And (again) let's remember the team was playing long stretches with players recovering from Covid or on protocol, Panarin gone, Shesty Trouba and Kakko hurt, etc.

 

Coming back to homogeneous...The fact that the team is constructed of players who all play the same way? Who's that on? Quinn?

 

There is plenty of valid criticism of Quinn out there, but some of it is so baseless that it just becomes people like G and myself who are not defending Quinn but just simple fact checking. Shit, I don't like looking like I'm defending a guy who I wouldn't piss on were he on fire but facts are fucking facts. I don't care for him but there's no reason to weave a false narrative around anyone.

 

It just gets to a point where the constant Quinn bashing and whining is hard to take seriously and makes GDTs less enjoyable.

 

The final note on player development is that it doesn't fall to one person, it falls on many within the org and on the player himself. Now I don't know for fact that Lafreniere showed up out of shape, but I know he admitted to not getting as much hockey in as normal due to covid and he looks gassed all the time. So unless Quinn is outside Penn Station Krispy Kreme flagging Laf down before games, there's a group of people responsible for his pedestrian rookie year.

It's this, 100%.

If you want to say that they don't play a diverse game, theyre one dimensional, they lack tools - sure, great. But you can't tell me that players aren't growing under him when our entire top 6 and three of our six defenders are having career years every year.

It's a tired criticism that hasn't got factual merit.

So spot on!

 

The only thing that I would add to it that you can legitimately put on Quinn about the lack of development regarding Lafrenaire, Kakko, Kravtsov, and to a lesser extent Chytil is their deployment. That comment that Quinn made about the Panarin/Strome line "needing a little more Jesper Fast" to justify his decision to plant Blackwell there instead of Kakko made me see red and illustrates perfectly where his mind is.

 

Not to take anything away from Blackwell; he has been a great story of finding value in the closeout bin and no issue whatsoever with his role as a bottom 6 guy that can slide up in a pinch. He is 28 years old though, he is likely not going to get better and you have assets there with considerably more upside. Didn't like what Kakko was giving him on that line, fine give your newly arrived Russian right winger an opportunity who certainly by the eye test has been doing everything that could reasonably be expected. All that he is doing is building value for Blackwell to be taken in the expansion draft this Summer.

 

Same gripe with Chytil, at what point do see what he can do with elite talent on his wing now that he has raised his production with less average ice time this season and almost no PP action.

 

These are absolutely straight lines that you can indict Quinn for the lack of development on the 4 under 23 prospects.

All the focus has been on how bad Kreider has played. Do we want to talk about how bad Panarin and Strome have been the last 2 games or is that off limits

You can't expect them to score every game