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Rangers Have Crucial Decisions to Make with Influx of Young Defensemen


Phil

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The mere utterance of it ruins my day.

 

Ratelle-Park trade was the low point of my teen years.

 

Zubov trade was the low point of my 30s.

 

Do you think the Rick Middleton trade was worse than the Esposito one, or just as bad? At least Phil had some pretty good years for the Rangers whereas Hodge was pretty mediocre here (at least going by his stats, compared to his career average). Middleton scored well over 400 goals in his career. Of course Park and Ratelle were still great obviously, but only had a handful of seasons left (albeit still very, very productive) where as Middleton was only a second year player at the time. Then again Park and Ratelle were Hall of Famers and big, big parts of those late 60's-early 70's Rangers teams that I wish I could have seen play.

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Do you think the Rick Middleton trade was worse than the Esposito one, or just as bad? At least Phil had some pretty good years for the Rangers whereas Hodge was pretty mediocre here (at least going by his stats, compared to his career average). Middleton scored well over 400 goals in his career. Of course Park and Ratelle were still great obviously, but only had a handful of seasons left (albeit still very, very productive) where as Middleton was only a second year player at the time. Then again Park and Ratelle were Hall of Famers and big, big parts of those late 60's-early 70's Rangers teams that I wish I could have seen play.

 

Do you think the Rick Middleton trade was worse than the Esposito one, or just as bad? At least Phil had some pretty good years for the Rangers whereas Hodge was pretty mediocre here (at least going by his stats, compared to his career average). Middleton scored well over 400 goals in his career. Of course Park and Ratelle were still great obviously, but only had a handful of seasons left (albeit still very, very productive) where as Middleton was only a second year player at the time. Then again Park and Ratelle were Hall of Famers and big, big parts of those late 60's-early 70's Rangers teams that I wish I could have seen play.

 

I'll give my take as a contemporary. I'm sure Sod will have additional thoughts. The original Esposito deal was a complete betrayal of Rangers fans in that we had learned to hate the Bruins with a unique venom between '70-73. The fact that the enemy - Esposito and Vadnais - was to be welcomed inside the tent was gut wrenching.

 

It started with acquiring all around asshole Derek Sanderson in 1974, who had already washed out with a WHA team and then failed a return trip to the Bruins. The Rangers management, because they lost to them and thinking they weren't tough enough, just got a hard-on for everything Bruins.

 

Then apparently Bill Jennings went to Francis after the Parise goal and said to dump some big salaries, so he did. Park was the guts of the team and Ratelle the class and style. Ratelle and Gilbert were boyhood pals in Montreal for God's sake! It stripped the identity of the Rangers. And then the Bruins - led by Ratty and Park - went to the Cup finals in '77 and '78. Thank God (and Ken Dryden) they didn't win or it would have been just excruciating.

 

Espo was about a point per game player his whole time in NY. So, not bad. But take that with the fact that he had 152 fucking points in '70-71 and 145 in '73-74. THAT'S what the Rangers (and the fans) thought they were getting and it never came close. He was the team leader in '79 and helped get them to the finals, but it still wasn't worth it.

 

That all being said, the Middleton trade was the worst on a hockey level. Espo wasn't succeeding and was under pressure, so he demanded Hodge - his (literal) wingman who was traded with him to Boston from the Blackhawks in '67 - be acquired to return to the glory days. Hodge - another key enemy from the early 70s campaigns thus another reminder of earlier indignity - had a decent year in '76-77 (60ish pts) and then fucking disintegrated and was sent down and then retired. Meanwhile Middleton went on to grab 80 pts for the Bs in one of their runs. Just a fucking travesty.

 

I can still feel the bile rising just talking about it. It was a fundamental betrayal and humiliation as well as just flagrantly incompetent management of a hockey team. Fucking dickheads.

 

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I'll give my take as a contemporary. I'm sure Sod will have additional thoughts. The original Esposito deal was a complete betrayal of Rangers fans in that we had learned to hate the Bruins with a unique venom between '70-73. The fact that the enemy - Esposito and Vadnais - was to be welcomed inside the tent was gut wrenching.

 

It started with acquiring all around asshole Derek Sanderson in 1974, who had already washed out with a WHA team and then failed a return trip to the Bruins. The Rangers management, because they lost to them and thinking they weren't tough enough, just got a hard-on for everything Bruins.

 

Then apparently Bill Jennings went to Francis after the Parise goal and said to dump some big salaries, so he did. Park was the guts of the team and Ratelle the class and style. Ratelle and Gilbert were boyhood pals in Montreal for God's sake! It stripped the identity of the Rangers. And then the Bruins - led by Ratty and Park - went to the Cup finals in '77 and '78. Thank God (and Ken Dryden) they didn't win or it would have been just excruciating.

 

Espo was about a point per game player his whole time in NY. So, not bad. But take that with the fact that he had 152 fucking points in '70-71 and 145 in '73-74. THAT'S what the Rangers (and the fans) thought they were getting and it never came close. He was the team leader in '79 and helped get them to the finals, but it still wasn't worth it.

 

That all being said, the Middleton trade was the worst on a hockey level. Espo wasn't succeeding and was under pressure, so he demanded Hodge - his (literal) wingman who was traded with him to Boston from the Blackhawks in '67 - be acquired to return to the glory days. Hodge - another key enemy from the early 70s campaigns thus another reminder of earlier indignity - had a decent year in '76-77 (60ish pts) and then fucking disintegrated and was sent down and then retired. Meanwhile Middleton went on to grab 80 pts for the Bs in one of their runs. Just a fucking travesty.

 

I can still feel the bile rising just talking about it. It was a fundamental betrayal and humiliation as well as just flagrantly incompetent management of a hockey team. Fucking dickheads.

 

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LOL! Sorry to rile everything up again. You can add putting Giacomin on waivers, which, while he wasn't what he once was, seemed like kind of a dick thing to do. But, this was all before my time. But, yeah, most of the Hall of Famers from those Rangers teams deserved a little better. Even with Park and Ratelle on Boston, it was probably hard rooting for those Bruins teams anyway, even if some of the players you hated were now on the Rangers. There's still that rivalry boil over. Even if maybe the Rangers' Cup window had closed with that group, it probably couldn't have ended in a worse way.

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LOL! Sorry to rile everything up again. You can add putting Giacomin on waivers, which, while he wasn't what he once was, seemed like kind of a dick thing to do. But, this was all before my time. But, yeah, most of the Hall of Famers from those Rangers teams deserved a little better. Even with Park and Ratelle on Boston, it was probably hard rooting for those Bruins teams anyway, even if some of the players you hated were now on the Rangers. There's still that rivalry boil over. Even if maybe the Rangers' Cup window had closed with that group, it probably couldn't have ended in a worse way.

 

 

I mean, it doesn't solve the problem of what you would have done with an aging Ranger team that couldn't get it done even their primes (at least partially due to injuries). But they had a couple of pieces - like Middleton - to build around and there was clearly another way to go about it than to try to become the Bruins.

 

I have a talked a little about getting to go to some awesome games as a kid, but among the most memorable was Eddie's return to the Garden in a Wings uniform. The entire building rooting against the Rangers and effectively saying fuck you to the management was quite something.

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I mean, it doesn't solve the problem of what you would have done with an aging Ranger team that couldn't get it done even their primes (at least partially due to injuries). But they had a couple of pieces - like Middleton - to build around and there was clearly another way to go about it than to try to become the Bruins.

 

I have a talked a little about getting to go to some awesome games as a kid, but among the most memorable was Eddie's return to the Garden in a Wings uniform. The entire building rooting against the Rangers and effectively saying fuck you to the management was quite something.

 

If Ratelle isn't injured, do you think they absolutely win that series in '72?

 

Yeah, I've read about that Giacomin game in a lot of my Rangers books. The fans were on Francis' ass too with signs and stuff, definitely an interesting time. Francis did say he thought that Rangers team was done, and their window closed after losing to the Flyers in '74.

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If Ratelle isn't injured, do you think they absolutely win that series in '72?

 

Yeah, I've read about that Giacomin game in a lot of my Rangers books. The fans were on Francis' ass too with signs and stuff, definitely an interesting time. Francis did say he thought that Rangers team was done, and their window closed after losing to the Flyers in '74.

 

Absolutely? Who can say? But if the GAG line was a computer, Ratelle was the CPU. Not only do I think he would have made an impact on the scoresheet with his all-world hands, the Rangers would have gotten more out of Gilbert and Hadfield with Ratty's playmaking. And with more attention focused on the top line, Tkaczuk and Fairbairn might have gotten more room to operate. The first 3 Bruin wins were all 1-goal games and the clincher a 2-0 win. It is hard not to think that it would at least have gone 7 with the 3rd leading scorer in the NHL in full form. But my answer is I've always thought they would have won.

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Rod has covered my thinking on the Ratelle Park trade. It was emotionally devastating because those two had been the best two players on the team for many years (try and imagine how you would have felt if they traded Leetch and Graves to the Islanders in about 1996). It's weird how much money would command a dump in those days. Park was at $250K and Ratelle $200. Espo couldn't have been much less, and Vadnais would have had to have been making decent coin to not jump to the WHA. I remember where I was when I heard about the trade the way people remember where they were when Kennedy got shot. The hell if I remember where I was when Rick Middleton got traded. I wouldn't defend that trade, or anything else that Ferguson did, but Middleton's play had declined once he had gotten into Manhattan party mode.

 

Giacomin was a little different. He was washed up, no one would take him in a trade, and he was making big money for the time, $175K. People forget that Eddie was confounded by the fans outrage over his exile, because they had been booing him before that.

 

Final note on Bill Jennings. I hate what he made Francis do. But twelve years earlier, he was responsible for pulling the Rangers out of a 20 year long skid, getting the Garden to host playoff games, orchestrating the new Garden, getting Francis to be the GM etc. He was also the most important figure in getting the Neandertals who ran the NHL to expand.

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Let's not forget. Lundkvist has to sign with the Rangers still. With them potentially handing a spot to Jones, this may sour Lundkvists interest in coming here. I think he was questioning the Rangers interest in giving him a shot when they had DeAngelo on the roster. But now they rushed to get Jones on the roster. He can potentially become a UFA by deciding to NOT sign here, and get bigger dollars from the highest bidder (though there IS a max amount he can get if I'm not mistaken )

 

They may have to make a trade sooner than we think. Maybe Jones getting pushed through is a showcase.

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Rod has covered my thinking on the Ratelle Park trade. It was emotionally devastating because those two had been the best two players on the team for many years (try and imagine how you would have felt if they traded Leetch and Graves to the Islanders in about 1996). It's weird how much money would command a dump in those days. Park was at $250K and Ratelle $200. Espo couldn't have been much less, and Vadnais would have had to have been making decent coin to not jump to the WHA. I remember where I was when I heard about the trade the way people remember where they were when Kennedy got shot. The hell if I remember where I was when Rick Middleton got traded. I wouldn't defend that trade, or anything else that Ferguson did, but Middleton's play had declined once he had gotten into Manhattan party mode.

 

Giacomin was a little different. He was washed up, no one would take him in a trade, and he was making big money for the time, $175K. People forget that Eddie was confounded by the fans outrage over his exile, because they had been booing him before that.

 

Final note on Bill Jennings. I hate what he made Francis do. But twelve years earlier, he was responsible for pulling the Rangers out of a 20 year long skid, getting the Garden to host playoff games, orchestrating the new Garden, getting Francis to be the GM etc. He was also the most important figure in getting the Neandertals who ran the NHL to expand.

Important context. Don't disagree with a thing.

 

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Let's not forget. Lundkvist has to sign with the Rangers still. With them potentially handing a spot to Jones, this may sour Lundkvists interest in coming here. I think he was questioning the Rangers interest in giving him a shot when they had DeAngelo on the roster. But now they rushed to get Jones on the roster. He can potentially become a UFA by deciding to NOT sign here, and get bigger dollars from the highest bidder (though there IS a max amount he can get if I'm not mistaken )

 

They may have to make a trade sooner than we think. Maybe Jones getting pushed through is a showcase.

 

I mean.. Lets not forget Jones hasnt even had a practice with the team yet. Quinn even said something along the lines of (I am paraphrasing) "Well see what hes got and if we can slot him in anywhere". Chances are he starts in Hartford next year. On spittin chiclets they interviewed his college coach this week and he even said he doesnt think Jones is NHL ready in a physical sense (though who knows, maybe hes just sour grapes about losing a key player). I wouldnt pencil him in over Lunqvist who is and has been arguably the Rangers top defensive prospect since he was drafted.

 

Lundqvist just won best defender in Sweden im sure hes not sweating some college kid in terms of winning a roster spot.

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Let's not forget. Lundkvist has to sign with the Rangers still. With them potentially handing a spot to Jones, this may sour Lundkvists interest in coming here. I think he was questioning the Rangers interest in giving him a shot when they had DeAngelo on the roster. But now they rushed to get Jones on the roster. He can potentially become a UFA by deciding to NOT sign here, and get bigger dollars from the highest bidder (though there IS a max amount he can get if I'm not mistaken )

 

They may have to make a trade sooner than we think. Maybe Jones getting pushed through is a showcase.

 

Jones plays left, Nils play right. The two don't have much to do with each other. Smith currently has Lundkist's spot and is a pending UFA.

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Final note on the '72 finals. Of course they would have had a better chance with Ratelle (technically, he did play, spot duty on PP). They also might have won had Game 1 turned out differently (where they fell behind 5-1 with two SHG against on the same PP, roared back to tie 5-5, and lost on stoppable goal with 2 minutes left, no thanks to Eddie). The Bruins were still in 1st place when Ratelle, but the Rangers had a more balanced team and better blueliners outside of Orr.

 

The year before probably represented the best chance at the cup in that era. The way the playoffs are set up now, they would have gotten MN, not Chic, in the semifinals and would have gotten the home advantage, which was given to Chic as the western "champion" in spite of the Rangers having more points. Montreal was very takeable and the Bruins were gone.

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Jones plays left, Nils play right. The two don't have much to do with each other. Smith currently has Lundkist's spot and is a pending UFA.

 

Both play the same game. Undersized and

offensive minded. Do they need that many offensive minded smallish D men? They have a lot to do with each other. They're going to be fighting for the same role.

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I don’t see it as a problem yet until we see what these guys can do in the NHL. Jones could very well be the next Gilroy, or he can be a stud. Same can be said about Lundkvist. Defensive prospects are hard to judge, look at MDZ. The guy looked like he was gonna be a stud for a long time, but just couldn’t put it together.
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I don’t see it as a problem yet until we see what these guys can do in the NHL. Jones could very well be the next Gilroy, or he can be a stud. Same can be said about Lundkvist. Defensive prospects are hard to judge, look at MDZ. The guy looked like he was gonna be a stud for a long time, but just couldn’t put it together.

 

Gilroy was a forward turned defenseman who became an NHLer at 25. Not exactly similar. He never had defensive pedigree. Jones and Lundkvist do.

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Both play the same game. Undersized and

offensive minded. Do they need that many offensive minded smallish D men? They have a lot to do with each other. They're going to be fighting for the same role.

Weird thing to hear coming from the biggest ADA supporter around.

 

Lunkvist plays well over 20 minutes a night. He's not an offensive specialist. Even if he was, you'd still have some combo of Fox, Lindgren, Miller, Trouba, Schneider, and Robertson rounding out you D corps.

 

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Weird thing to hear coming from the biggest ADA supporter around.

 

Lunkvist plays well over 20 minutes a night. He's not an offensive specialist. Even if he was, you'd still have some combo of Fox, Lindgren, Miller, Trouba, Schneider, and Robertson rounding out you D corps.

 

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Well DeAngelo was willing to play the left and had just put up how many points last year? There's a small gap of proven productivity who you have to resign or trade, vs your top offensive D man prospect. Lundkvist may be a two way Dman in in the Swedish league. But that usually translates to offensive D man in the NHL, especially at his size.

 

As for your D pairings... well YEAH... So where's Jones?

 

With Lundkvist not signed, I think the Rangers need to guarantee him a spot in the NHL to get him to sign. I guess if Jones impresses they could both be on the roster and you walk away from Smith.. But that makes the team unbelievably soft until Schneider and Robertson get here in a year or two or three...

 

Overall I'm just hoping this early signing isn't smoke and mirrors to cover up a possibility that Lundkvist may indeed hold out and become a UFA. If he's that good, that might very well be his plan. He could go wherever he wants.. Someone will give him a top 4 spot in this league. He's going to come here for 3rd pair minutes?

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I buy out trouba before I let Lundqvist walk.

 

If that happens I will consider it a massive failure on the Ranger’s part.

 

 

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I just really don't see that happening.

 

It's very "Rangers" that the 2 contracts they might like to be out of the most are guys they never would have signed if they really knew what they had or what was coming. IMO, They aren't doing that Trouba deal or the Kreider deal if they knew what they had in Fox and that they'd get Laf.

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I just really don't see that happening.

 

It's very "Rangers" that the 2 contracts they might like to be out of the most are guys they never would have signed if they really knew what they had or what was coming. IMO, They aren't doing that Trouba deal or the Kreider deal if they knew what they had in Fox and that they'd get Laf.

 

Don’t see them buying him out (I don’t in the immediate but I do in 2-3 years) or don’t see them letting Lundqvist walk?

 

Either way, a “Rangers thing” indeed.

 

Guess it’s better than having no options though

 

 

 

 

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therefore would re-sign smith as an insurance policy

 

If I were Smith, I'd be signing elsewhere, where I had some relative assurance that I had a spot as a third unit regular. He's been pretty good this year, with his contract up and his NHL career in the balance. If he get's a two or three year deal, and knows it is probably his last NHL contract, will he be as good? I sure didn't like what I saw last time he had a new contract in hand. Bitteto as an insurance policy at $735K for one more year may represent better cap management than Smith at $1.5 or even 2.0 per for two.

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If I were Smith, I'd be signing elsewhere, where I had some relative assurance that I had a spot as a third unit regular. He's been pretty good this year, with his contract up and his NHL career in the balance. If he get's a two or three year deal, and knows it is probably his last NHL contract, will he be as good? I sure didn't like what I saw last time he had a new contract in hand. Bitteto as an insurance policy at $735K for one more year may represent better cap management than Smith at $1.5 or even 2.0 per for two.

 

Smith should play the market a bit if he really wants term, but I think saying we've got a 1.3-ish range 1-2 year deal for him on the table to be a 6th/7th and spend a good deal of time coaching the kids is a hell of a backup plan.

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