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Thread: [RS] (#15) Rangers @ Philadelphia Flyers // Smoking That Lemon Kevin Haze

  1. #321
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gravesy View Post
    And, perhaps, David Quinn, Jeff Gorton and John Davidson? Is it possible that at least part of the reason two consecutive top picks are looking like shells of themselves in a Rangers uniform is down to what is around them at MSG?

    I mean, let’s not pretend the Rangers situation is very different from the Sens. They’re a bottom feeder heading for another high pick. The season is already a wash and results mean fuck all.
    The Rangers situation is quite different than the Sens. Offense wasn't a problem last year for the Rangers, defense was. They've made a commitment to defense and it shows, their SA/G, HDSC against, and xGA are all down from last year and are in the top 1/3 of the league in all.

    Ottawa is 2nd to last in SA, HDSC against, and xGA. They are defensively brutal. They can let Stutzle freewheel all they want, is it better for them to do that and not learn a lick of D? I don't know.

    What I do believe, and have said before, is that it seems like Quinn does very little offensive coaching. To me, it feels like he expects talent to take over, and that has not been the case with either Kakko or Laf early on, but players like Fox, ADA, Miller, haven't had a problem playing their game. The line between forward and defense does seem strange, but I will add that none of the D are top 1/2 picks and therefore expectations are different. Also none came into the league as 18 year olds, so maybe they have that in common. I will say that Kakko's issues were very different than Laf. Kakko was slow and weak and couldn't cycle and lean into players the way he did in Finland. Laf just looks confused and doesn't want the puck.

    What I will say is that Laf has been given all the opportunity in the world. Quinn just can't win, when he had Laf with Zib then Laf's against the other team's top lines. When he Had Laf on favorable D matchups and sheltered, he's with Howden. So either way there will be bitching. But he got a good look with Kakko and Strome and failed to record as many shots as the other 2 during his time there.

    It's really on him that he's not letting his instincts and hockey IQ take over when he has the puck, and frankly his shifts end about 10-15 seconds before his linemates so I wonder if there's a conditioning issue there. Maybe the thought it would be easy?

    Maybe it's on Quinn to communicate where the line is between defending and letting your offense take over, but he certainly won't teach Laf anything new about scoring goals and setting up others.

    IMO most of Laf's struggles are on Laf.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gravesy View Post
    That’s a pretty solid deflection.
    Let’s get back to the point. Why does Lafreniere look so bad and uncomfortable playing a game he’s dominated his entire life? And why is it eerily similar to Kakko’s first year?
    Is it possible the Rangers are doing something wrong?
    Should the Rangers have had them play 10-15 games at the AHL to help prepare for the NHL ? It didn't help Lafreniere not having any preseason games to prep for the season and you have to like the bounce back for Kaapo.
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  3. #323
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    The Rangers situation is quite different than the Sens. Offense wasn't a problem last year for the Rangers, defense was. They've made a commitment to defense and it shows, their SA/G, HDSC against, and xGA are all down from last year and are in the top 1/3 of the league in all.

    Ottawa is 2nd to last in SA, HDSC against, and xGA. They are defensively brutal. They can let Stutzle freewheel all they want, is it better for them to do that and not learn a lick of D? I don't know.

    What I do believe, and have said before, is that it seems like Quinn does very little offensive coaching. To me, it feels like he expects talent to take over, and that has not been the case with either Kakko or Laf early on, but players like Fox, ADA, Miller, haven't had a problem playing their game. The line between forward and defense does seem strange, but I will add that none of the D are top 1/2 picks and therefore expectations are different. Also none came into the league as 18 year olds, so maybe they have that in common. I will say that Kakko's issues were very different than Laf. Kakko was slow and weak and couldn't cycle and lean into players the way he did in Finland. Laf just looks confused and doesn't want the puck.

    What I will say is that Laf has been given all the opportunity in the world. Quinn just can't win, when he had Laf with Zib then Laf's against the other team's top lines. When he Had Laf on favorable D matchups and sheltered, he's with Howden. So either way there will be bitching. But he got a good look with Kakko and Strome and failed to record as many shots as the other 2 during his time there.

    It's really on him that he's not letting his instincts and hockey IQ take over when he has the puck, and frankly his shifts end about 10-15 seconds before his linemates so I wonder if there's a conditioning issue there. Maybe the thought it would be easy?

    Maybe it's on Quinn to communicate where the line is between defending and letting your offense take over, but he certainly won't teach Laf anything new about scoring goals and setting up others.

    IMO most of Laf's struggles are on Laf.
    He also didn't get a prospect tourny, or a training camp, or a preseason. Its trial by fire. I'm not worried about it. I believe he'll figure out the adjustment eventually.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    The Rangers situation is quite different than the Sens. Offense wasn't a problem last year for the Rangers, defense was. They've made a commitment to defense and it shows, their SA/G, HDSC against, and xGA are all down from last year and are in the top 1/3 of the league in all.

    Ottawa is 2nd to last in SA, HDSC against, and xGA. They are defensively brutal. They can let Stutzle freewheel all they want, is it better for them to do that and not learn a lick of D? I don't know.

    What I do believe, and have said before, is that it seems like Quinn does very little offensive coaching. To me, it feels like he expects talent to take over, and that has not been the case with either Kakko or Laf early on, but players like Fox, ADA, Miller, haven't had a problem playing their game. The line between forward and defense does seem strange, but I will add that none of the D are top 1/2 picks and therefore expectations are different. Also none came into the league as 18 year olds, so maybe they have that in common. I will say that Kakko's issues were very different than Laf. Kakko was slow and weak and couldn't cycle and lean into players the way he did in Finland. Laf just looks confused and doesn't want the puck.

    What I will say is that Laf has been given all the opportunity in the world. Quinn just can't win, when he had Laf with Zib then Laf's against the other team's top lines. When he Had Laf on favorable D matchups and sheltered, he's with Howden. So either way there will be bitching. But he got a good look with Kakko and Strome and failed to record as many shots as the other 2 during his time there.

    It's really on him that he's not letting his instincts and hockey IQ take over when he has the puck, and frankly his shifts end about 10-15 seconds before his linemates so I wonder if there's a conditioning issue there. Maybe the thought it would be easy?

    Maybe it's on Quinn to communicate where the line is between defending and letting your offense take over, but he certainly won't teach Laf anything new about scoring goals and setting up others.

    IMO most of Laf's struggles are on Laf.
    Great post, repped
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  5. #325
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    The Rangers situation is quite different than the Sens. Offense wasn't a problem last year for the Rangers, defense was. They've made a commitment to defense and it shows, their SA/G, HDSC against, and xGA are all down from last year and are in the top 1/3 of the league in all.

    Ottawa is 2nd to last in SA, HDSC against, and xGA. They are defensively brutal. They can let Stutzle freewheel all they want, is it better for them to do that and not learn a lick of D? I don't know.

    What I do believe, and have said before, is that it seems like Quinn does very little offensive coaching. To me, it feels like he expects talent to take over, and that has not been the case with either Kakko or Laf early on, but players like Fox, ADA, Miller, haven't had a problem playing their game. The line between forward and defense does seem strange, but I will add that none of the D are top 1/2 picks and therefore expectations are different. Also none came into the league as 18 year olds, so maybe they have that in common. I will say that Kakko's issues were very different than Laf. Kakko was slow and weak and couldn't cycle and lean into players the way he did in Finland. Laf just looks confused and doesn't want the puck.

    What I will say is that Laf has been given all the opportunity in the world. Quinn just can't win, when he had Laf with Zib then Laf's against the other team's top lines. When he Had Laf on favorable D matchups and sheltered, he's with Howden. So either way there will be bitching. But he got a good look with Kakko and Strome and failed to record as many shots as the other 2 during his time there.

    It's really on him that he's not letting his instincts and hockey IQ take over when he has the puck, and frankly his shifts end about 10-15 seconds before his linemates so I wonder if there's a conditioning issue there. Maybe the thought it would be easy?

    Maybe it's on Quinn to communicate where the line is between defending and letting your offense take over, but he certainly won't teach Laf anything new about scoring goals and setting up others.

    IMO most of Laf's struggles are on Laf.
    I agree with most of that, and I think you've kind of touched on the point I was trying to make, but you did it better.
    You have two top picks who both have struggled immensely. In their own way they've both seemingly carried the burden of expectations and it has taken over from their natural ability to play hockey. And as a result, they've both massively underperformed. Considering it's happened two years in a row, it seems like there's something there. Like I said in the other thread, it seems like an incredible coincidence that this would happen to two consecutive Rangers picks purely by chance, the curse or whatever you'd like to call it.
    Clearly, being Key Miller, who nobody really expected to even make the team or Adam Fox, who many felt 2 2nds was an overpayment for, is very different than being the 1st and 2nd overall picks billed as saviours of the franchise.
    I'd argue there is something there the Rangers as a franchise, and not necessarily all Quinn, aren't able to get right. It's easy to forget that these are human beings, and practically children. And confidence is everything in sports. Maybe the support system is failing them. I don't know, but it seems clear something isn't quite as it should be.
    Last edited by Gravesy; 02-19-2021 at 06:34 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Morphinity View Post
    I am concerned.

    Look at the videos in this article (you can ignore the text, it's irrelevant):
    https://theathletic.com/1713841/2020...-nhl-prospect/

    Obviously he's doing those things against a variety of lesser opponents, but we're not even seeing him try what made him special at the NHL level. He's a JAG - a dump and chase machine.

    Maybe he's too afraid of making a mistake, maybe he can't think the game fast enough yet, maybe he's too afraid of getting his head taken off. There's absolutely nothing encouraging about his play right now. The sky is not falling - we saw Kakko have a horrendous rookie season and he looks much improved after 15 games. But at least Kakko was putting up some points - Lafreni?re has 0 regulation points!!!
    Agree with respect to Kakko. I remember watching him in his last WJC stickhandling behind the net and thinking that he was playing 3-Card Monte with the puck and making everyone else look foolish. Showed amazing confidence and skill. Saw none of that last season. Zip. But I saw it again during the last couple games. He's starting to feel his oats and understand what he can do against the best players in the league. Wasn't going to happen in an instant for him.

    This is the first time in Laf's life that he isn't the best player on the ice. What do you do with that? He hadn't even set foot in NYC until the fall. I don't care if he was the king of bumfuck, Quebec, and all of juniors. This has got to be a major adjustment. I have no doubt that he is going to be a major force in the NHL- definitely no doubts at 14 games into his career.

    Everyone yaks about the importance of "developing the kids" but nobody seems to have any time or patience for it.



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    Quote Originally Posted by RodrigueGabriel View Post
    This is the first time in Laf's life that he isn't the best player on the ice. What do you do with that? He hadn't even set foot in NYC until the fall. I don't care if he was the king of bumfuck, Quebec, and all of juniors. This has got to be a major adjustment. I have no doubt that he is going to be a major force in the NHL- definitely no doubts at 14 games into his career.

    Everyone yaks about the importance of "developing the kids" but nobody seems to have any time or patience for it.



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    That's all true, but it's also true for every other 1st oa pick with the same pedigree. And he's having a very bad start compared to most players you'd care to compare him with.
    Tbh I'm not worried about it either, really, I just find it interesting it's happening two years in a row
    Fuck it, I'm boring myself now. Go to bed, Gravesy.

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    Kakko's production is near identical to Hughes.

    Byfield is playing in the minors.

    Hell even Draisaitl played in junior after he was drafted.

    Let's just let Kakko and Laf have their own journies and not worry about trying comparing them to other kids in other situations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Long live the King View Post
    But hey, maybe one day Stutzle and Tkachuk will both score 100 points and fail to make the playoffs like McDavid and Draisaitl. Or never win a playoff series like Matthews and Marner.

    It took Stamkos and Hedman a decade to win a cup. We need to settle down with 15 games of Laf v. Stutzle.
    Yeah, you guys are taking the point out of context. It wasn't a comparison to Stutzle. It was a flash of high-end skill that Stutzle displayed that we haven't seen from Laf to this point. I think that's what makes it concerning.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin View Post
    Yeah, you guys are taking the point out of context. It wasn't a comparison to Stutzle. It was a flash of high-end skill that Stutzle displayed that we haven't seen from Laf to this point. I think that's what makes it concerning.
    That was a well placed shot, but also awful goaltending haha.

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    I wouldn't worry, Owen Nolan wasn't great in year 1, either.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dunny View Post
    I wouldn't worry, Owen Nolan wasn't great in year 1, either.
    +1

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dunny View Post
    I wouldn't worry, Owen Nolan wasn't great in year 1, either.
    He was also just a good player, not what you'd expect of a #1 overall with the hype of Lafrienere.

    I'd be a bit disappointed if that's what he turned into since that's where I also think Kakko is going.

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    Agree with the sentiment that Kakko and Laf's slow start has to reflect poorly on DQ. What are the chances that 2 can't miss, consensus best of the best, top notch personality prospects kick off their nhl careers with a whimper. I would bet it's DQs micromanaging, control freak style that messed with them. As a fan, I'd rather see these two flash talent night in and night out, even if they're screwing up a bunch along the way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jdog99 View Post
    Agree with the sentiment that Kakko and Laf's slow start has to reflect poorly on DQ. What are the chances that 2 can't miss, consensus best of the best, top notch personality prospects kick off their nhl careers with a whimper. I would bet it's DQs micromanaging, control freak style that messed with them. As a fan, I'd rather see these two flash talent night in and night out, even if they're screwing up a bunch along the way.
    Is Hughes' production Quinn's fault because his numbers are nearly identical to Kakko's.

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    Are they really though? Hughes sitting on 9 points and playing a much tougher position. He's also been a difference maker in a bunch of their games this year helping them exceed all expectations. Can Kakko catch up this year, sure I hope so but I doubt it. I don't see how it can be said they're equal this season. Last year, yes they both were absolute trash.

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    Hughes is such a great player but I believe that Kakko will eventually surpass him in every category throughout their careers. Jeez, I hope I'm right. I'm pretty fucked up now so I need to stop posting shit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gravesy View Post
    That's all true, but it's also true for every other 1st oa pick with the same pedigree. And he's having a very bad start compared to most players you'd care to compare him with.
    Tbh I'm not worried about it either, really, I just find it interesting it's happening two years in a row
    Fuck it, I'm boring myself now. Go to bed, Gravesy.
    I don't think we ever give enough consideration to the New York City factor.

    Turku, Finland, is the size of Little Rock, AR, so not a tiny hamlet. But throw in the language and culture, and NYC may as well be another planet. LaF grew up in a fairly remote suburb of Montreal and played mostly in Rimouski, which is a town of 40k located somewhere between Quebec City and the middle of the North Atlantic. I'm sure Laf is the jewel of both St. Eustache and Rimouski, where hockey is king and it's likely that nobody there ever said a bad word about him.

    Kid comes to NYC and he isn't even a pimple on its collective ass. Everything is huge, loud, and abrasive. Then the players are bigger and faster and better than he's ever seen and for the 1st time he's not The Guy. He does the best he can to start, but things that worked for him in the past don't work right away. Maybe he's even told not to do them.

    Then if he falters - at all, even after a small handful of games - a million or so wannabe experts come out of the woodwork to call him a disappointment or even a bust, and say that the entire City of New York has been jipped or shortchanged or at the very least he isn't the NHL-ready 1OA (or 2OA) pick that WE. WERE. PROMISED. It's just what New York fans do. We can't help ourselves.

    Then maybe some number of those same charitable souls see him as a very convenient cudgel with which to whack away on their own particular pet agendas, which could just possibly include getting the current coach fired. So now, not only is he disappointing himself and his new theoretical fans, he gets to worry that his failure to deliver on every expectation from the opening bell is now endangering the job of the guy who determines his ice time, or that at least some subset of people see it that way.

    The knives may be just as sharp in Montreal and Toronto. But the sheer physical size of NYC and its massive media machine, as well as its signature impatience - slathered with the certainty that its own take is super hot - has to be hugely intimidating and dislocating to both those kids. So simply pointing to the performance of 1OAs in Pittsburgh, Denver, or even LI or DC doesn't, in my opinion, nearly factor in the extra degree of difficulty. Boston and Chicago might compare, but I'd put them a cut below.

    So, I'm really happy to see Kaako starting to put it together and can't wait to see LaF do the same, even if it takes this whole season, or maybe another. I think both have both the talent and strength of character to strive and thrive here, in spite of being in NYC. Just might take a little longer.

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