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Thread: Removal of Confederate Monuments

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    Quote Originally Posted by ThirtyONE View Post
    The cornerstone speech might be well written, but that doesn't make it "good."
    That's my point. Hitler was a phenomenal orator. Charles Manson had charisma. These are superficial linings no one should stomach in the face of the world of atrocities they thinly veil.
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    https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com...erate-statues/
    'Confederate Statues Were Never Really About Preserving History'

    'In recent weeks President Trump has railed against tearing down statues across the country — and has been particularly dogged in his defense of Confederate monuments. But his argument that they are benign symbols of America’s past is misleading. An overwhelming majority of Confederate memorials weren’t erected in the years directly following the Civil War. Instead, most were put up decades later. Nor were they built just to commemorate fallen generals and soldiers; they were installed as symbols of white supremacy during periods of U.S. history when Black Americans’ civil rights were aggressively under attack....The biggest spike in Confederate memorials came during the early 1900s, soon after Southern states enacted a number of sweeping laws to disenfranchise Black Americans and segregate society. During this period, more than 400 monuments were built as part of an organized strategy to reshape Civil War history....From around 1920 to the early 1940s, there was a second wave of statue building. Jane Dailey, professor of American history at the University of Chicago, said this period of construction coincided with more Black Americans’ fighting for civil rights and pushing back against widespread lynchings in the South....Black Americans have long understood the symbolism of those monuments. “I know what this statue means,” said Brooks. “It's a reminder to stay in my place.”'
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    Celebrating confederate losers...is by itself un-patriotic. Trump is grasping for voters who idealized the way of life in the past, a very much 'white privileged' way of life. I've read twitter posts pointing to the 'statistics' of black led crimes and destabilization of neighborhoods, etc., but what those posters forgot to mention is the segregation and discrimination which created the atmosphere of distrust, disillusionment and was part of a catalyst for family break-down and neighborhood decline.

    The inability of people of color or those otherwise considered 'minority' both by headcount and politicized labeling to gain a financial footing in the USA is irrefutable. The system was stacked against their success and achievements at every turn. Why is that so difficult to see and acknowledge?

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    Quote Originally Posted by 4EverRangerFrank View Post
    Celebrating confederate losers...is by itself un-patriotic. Trump is grasping for voters who idealized the way of life in the past, a very much 'white privileged' way of life. I've read twitter posts pointing to the 'statistics' of black led crimes and destabilization of neighborhoods, etc., but what those posters forgot to mention is the segregation and discrimination which created the atmosphere of distrust, disillusionment and was part of a catalyst for family break-down and neighborhood decline.

    The inability of people of color or those otherwise considered 'minority' both by headcount and politicized labeling to gain a financial footing in the USA is irrefutable. The system was stacked against their success and achievements at every turn. Why is that so difficult to see and acknowledge?
    I think this is a very general post without digging in too deep. There are many other minorities in this country who are doing fine, working hard, and raising their families. Not trying to change things to suit them. Why? Why aren’t they shooting each other every day? Why arent they abandoning their young? Why arent they defer to a life of crime on such scale? Why arent they glorify violence? Controversial topics

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    Quote Originally Posted by Albatross View Post
    I think this is a very general post without digging in too deep. There are many other minorities in this country who are doing fine, working hard, and raising their families. Not trying to change things to suit them. Why? Why aren’t they shooting each other every day? Why arent they abandoning their young? Why arent they defer to a life of crime on such scale? Why arent they glorify violence? Controversial topics
    Because they didn't come here as slaves and aren't thought of as "less than" because they look different?

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    Iíd keep any memorials to Longstreet up, (one of my favorite historical figures), and take the rest down.


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    Longstreet was 'aight, but Thomas J Jackson was a superb historical figure and a superb person.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dunny View Post
    Longstreet was 'aight, but Thomas J Jackson was a superb historical figure and a superb person.
    Jackson doesnít pass the post war character test obviously like Longstreet.

    Ans didnít have near the epic beard


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    Quote Originally Posted by Albatross View Post
    I think this is a very general post without digging in too deep. There are many other minorities in this country who are doing fine, working hard, and raising their families. Not trying to change things to suit them. Why? Why aren’t they shooting each other every day? Why arent they abandoning their young? Why arent they defer to a life of crime on such scale? Why arent they glorify violence? Controversial topics
    Generally asking is it right for the president to keep up reverence for Confederate leaders?

    The bolded statement has too many inappropriate connotations that I'm not going to assume you infer. Changing things...like drinking from the same fountains, using the same bathroom, schools, etc.? Ok then I agree, yes change was in order. Any other interpretation of that highlighted statement is troubling at best.
    Last edited by 4EverRangerFrank; 07-08-2020 at 05:35 PM.

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    Kinda hard when you're dead lol

    He founded a black parochial school, against persecution from locals, so they could learn to read and write

    'Tis true he had a few slaves through his later life, but he treated them kind by all records, and when a two of them were sick, he paid all their medical bills, looking after the gentleman (I forget his name) hand and foot himself. He was completely congenial in almost all matters. He threw Richard Garnett under the bus scandalously, inaccurately and unfairly, but that's his only known blemish as a human being, besides owning people, which is now obviously an absurd notion, but also absolutely must be viewed through different perspectives, considering the Era.

    He argued extensively against secession, as did Lee, Jubal Early and countless others, but ultimately sided with his State, unsurprising as he was a VMI professor. In my mind the "traitor" angle has become a lame excuse to undermine their obviously excruciating, complicated decision in siding with who they did.

    He grew up with unspeakable tragedy, and a lot of poverty at times, which followed him pretty much his whole life, was picked on extensively at times, including at VMI, he was a completely self made man, willing his way in to West Point and then ultimately succeeding there in a star studded class.

    I understand why people want the Monument(s) removed, the reasoning is pretty sound, and the shitty reasons why they were erected are undeniable, but to treat men like this as Nazi's and the other hysterics that are all the rage now is pretty shameful and is really shallow stuff.

    Sorry for the rant.
    Last edited by Dunny; 07-08-2020 at 06:24 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    Because they didn't come here as slaves and aren't thought of as "less than" because they look different?
    Slavery abolished some 200 years ago. Cant still use it as an excuse.
    Many latinos are ancestors of slaves, dont use it as an excuse.

    But I believe people in general are responsible for their own fate, especially in this country. The opportunities this country provides like no other place in the world. In my line of work i know many very successful blacks who dont sulk about being enslaved 300 years ago. And i know many who think the world owes them for that.
    My people had been hated and exterminated throughout the world for centuries. Guess what we did? We became scientists, doctors, businessmen, world renowned artists, etc. And all we wanted is to be left alone. I dont buy excuses. Excuses are for the weak and for failures.
    Last edited by Albatross; 07-08-2020 at 06:53 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 4EverRangerFrank View Post
    Generally asking is it right for the president to keep up reverence for Confederate leaders?

    The bolded statement has too many inappropriate connotations that I'm not going to assume you infer. Changing things...like drinking from the same fountains, using the same bathroom, schools, etc.? Ok then I agree, yes change was in order. Any other interpretation of that highlighted statement is troubling at best.
    Im not sure what you took from that one sentence.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dunny View Post
    Kinda hard when you're dead lol

    He founded a black parochial school, against persecution from locals, so they could learn to read and write

    'Tis true he had a few slaves through his later life, but he treated them kind by all records, and when a two of them were sick, he paid all their medical bills, looking after the gentleman (I forget his name) hand and foot himself. He was completely congenial in almost all matters. He threw Richard Garnett under the bus scandalously, inaccurately and unfairly, but that's his only known blemish as a human being, besides owning people, which is now obviously an absurd notion, but also absolutely must be viewed through different perspectives, considering the Era.

    He argued extensively against secession, as did Lee, Jubal Early and countless others, but ultimately sided with his State, unsurprising as he was a VMI professor. In my mind the "traitor" angle has become a lame excuse to undermine their obviously excruciating, complicated decision in siding with who they did.

    He grew up with unspeakable tragedy, and a lot of poverty at times, which followed him pretty much his whole life, was picked on extensively at times, including at VMI, he was a completely self made man, willing his way in to West Point and then ultimately succeeding there in a star studded class.

    I understand why people want the Monument(s) removed, the reasoning is pretty sound, and the shitty reasons why they were erected are undeniable, but to treat men like this as Nazi's and the other hysterics that are all the rage now is pretty shameful and is really shallow stuff.

    Sorry for the rant.
    Cant judge someone from 200 years ago by today’s standards and ethics. By this idiotic notion all white people should hang cause we exterminated neanderthals.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Albatross View Post
    Im not sure what you took from that one sentence.
    He took what you expanded on here. Racism.
    Quote Originally Posted by Albatross View Post
    Slavery abolished some 200 years ago. Cant still use it as an excuse.
    Many latinos are ancestors of slaves, dont use it as an excuse.

    But I believe people in general are responsible for their own fate, especially in this country. The opportunities this country provides like no other place in the world. In my line of work i know many very successful blacks who dont sulk about being enslaved 300 years ago. And i know many who think the world owes them for that.
    My people had been hated and exterminated throughout the world for centuries. Guess what we did? We became scientists, doctors, businessmen, world renowned artists, etc. And all we wanted is to be left alone. I dont buy excuses. Excuses are for the weak and for failures.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    He took what you expanded on here. Racism.
    Which part of what was said was racist exactly?

    This is exactly what I'm talking about with respect to diluting the word and it's meaning. He called out the portion of the black community who willfully hang on to slavery rather than attempting to better their own lives, while also recognizing and commending successful blacks who don't focus on 200 years ago, and work hard to better themselves and their lives. Where is the hatred in that? Drawing the line from what was said to "all unsuccessful blacks are lazy" is a strawman because it's not what was said or implied.

    This is the kind of retorting that pushes the entire message off the rails, and makes it into something it shouldn't be about.
    Last edited by Drew a Penalty; 07-08-2020 at 07:51 PM. Reason: Removed deleted post.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rmc51 View Post
    Which part of what was said was racist exactly?

    This is exactly what I'm talking about with respect to diluting the word and it's meaning. He called out the portion of the black community who willfully hang on to slavery rather than attempting to better their own lives, while also recognizing and commending successful blacks who don't focus on 200 years ago, and work hard to better themselves and their lives. Where is the hatred in that? Drawing the line from what was said to "all unsuccessful blacks are lazy" is a strawman because it's not what was said or implied.

    This is the kind of retorting that pushes the entire message off the rails, and makes it into something it shouldn't be about.
    You act like because he didn't outright say "I hate black people", that there weren't implications, connotations, and statements full of white privilege in 3-4 of his posts in this thread.

    I won't speak for John's post, but I said there was racism in the posts (I didn't call him a rac, and there is, and I can't believe in 2020 it still needs explaining.

    Quote Originally Posted by Albatross View Post
    I think this is a very general post without digging in too deep. There are many other minorities in this country who are doing fine, working hard, and raising their families. Not trying to change things to suit them. Why? Why aren’t they shooting each other every day? Why arent they abandoning their young? Why arent they defer to a life of crime on such scale? Why arent they glorify violence? Controversial topics
    The entire point being made here is that black people act this way specifically because they are black...Because ya know, other minorities don't "act this way". Which is, in case you didn't know, racist. Not only are the suggestions here offensive but we can now just blanket statement all black people now under generalities? Like all Asians are good at math, all Italians are in the mob, girls can't throw. You know, your every day judgments and biases that make others feel less than.

    Quote Originally Posted by Albatross View Post
    Slavery abolished some 200 years ago. Cant still use it as an excuse.
    Says the white man who was never a slave...And yet there was a whole Civil Rights movement around equality just 60-ish years ago.
    Many latinos are ancestors of slaves, dont use it as an excuse.
    So this just means blacks make excuses?

    But I believe people in general are responsible for their own fate, especially in this country. The opportunities this country provides like no other place in the world. In my line of work i know many very successful blacks who dont sulk about being enslaved 300 years ago. And i know many who think the world owes them for that.
    Anecdotal walk back here. "I have black friends, I can't be racist."
    My people had been hated and exterminated throughout the world for centuries. Guess what we did? We became scientists, doctors, businessmen, world renowned artists, etc. And all we wanted is to be left alone. I dont buy excuses. Excuses are for the weak and for failures.
    This is "All lives matter".

    I don't know when folks will start to understand that accepting what has happened to blacks in this country is on another level, especially given that this is supposedly the land of equality and opportunity.

    But of course there are folks who think there's no such thing as racism and that blacks have allllll the same opportunities that whites have.

    You can accuse other people all you want about diluting the word "racist", as you continue to ignore all the racism right in front of you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Albatross View Post
    Slavery abolished some 200 years ago. Cant still use it as an excuse.
    Many latinos are ancestors of slaves, dont use it as an excuse.

    But I believe people in general are responsible for their own fate, especially in this country. The opportunities this country provides like no other place in the world. In my line of work i know many very successful blacks who dont sulk about being enslaved 300 years ago. And i know many who think the world owes them for that.
    My people had been hated and exterminated throughout the world for centuries. Guess what we did? We became scientists, doctors, businessmen, world renowned artists, etc. And all we wanted is to be left alone. I dont buy excuses. Excuses are for the weak and for failures.
    This post is all kinds of wrong.

    The "pull yourselves up by your own boot straps" mentality only applies if you can afford boots in the first place, and is willfully ignorant of the fact that blacks start well behind others, especially whites, on the starting line of life. They're statistically more likely to face eviction, starvation, and single-parent households (largely because black men are disproportionately jailed en masse) which fundamentally puts them behind numerous eight balls.

    You really ought to familiarize yourself with the recorded data and stop relying on anecdotes like "the black people I know aren't like this."

    Cases in point:



    The employment-population ratio for Black Americans has historically tended to fall quite a bit lower than for whites or Latinos.


    The Bureau of Labor Statistics shows that 54% of employed Asians worked in management, professional, and related occupations — the highest-paying major occupational category — compared with 41% of employed whites, 31% employed Blacks, and 22% of employed Hispanics.

    This, in part, can be explained by racist hiring practices that kept Blacks out of business for decades under Jim Crow. It can also be explained by more subtle forms of prejudice today.


    A 2019 study by executive-staffing firm Crist Kolder associates looked at the CEOs of Fortune 500 and S&P 500 companies. Only 8.7% of the 675 companies in the study had CEOs of color.


    While the 116th Congress, which came into session after the 2018 midterm elections, was the most diverse ever, only 57 of the current 535 voting members of Congress are Black.


    In 2018, the average Black worker earned just 62% of what the average white worker made.






    That, and a whole lot more can be found here, here, and here.

    --

    The only "lazy" one here is anyone suggesting after all of this — after slavery, Jim Crow, redlining, and mass incarceration — that the only reason blacks are where they are is because they're unwilling to do anything about it.
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    The posts here and in other threads on this Board are testament to the difficulty for many to fully appreciate the phrase; ĎTry walking a mile in my shoes.í

    I may not fully appreciate what thatís like but Iím willing to listen with empathy and not judge what I havenít lived.

    If we, every last one of us, are unwilling to hear the message of the aggrieved then we donít deserve to be called a democracy or a republic of united states.

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    It's the appeals to anecdotes that kill me. I've said it a thousand times and I'll keep saying it until I don't have to anymore: the plural of anecdote is not data/evidence.
    "Everyone says you should be a good loser. If youíre a good loser, youíre a loser."
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    "Never be a spectator of unfairness or stupidity. Seek out argument and disputation for their own sake; the grave will supply plenty of time for silence."
    - Christopher Hitchens

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