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Thread: Removal of Confederate Monuments

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    Removal of Confederate Monuments

    Guys, let's open a new thread on this so these stories don't detract from the primary Floyd protests. These began with Confederate monuments, but have grown to include other historical figures. Please continue all discussions on this here, including new stories/links.

    Thanks,
    Phil
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    why are you removing those posts from their original location? don't you care about our history?


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    Removal of Confederate monuments: Ok. Sorry if you're great great grandpappy fought on the wrong side. Don't need a statue. My great great grandpappy didn't fight for the wrong side and he doesn't have a statue either.

    Removal of American heroes (Washington, Jefferson): Not ok. Have some respect for the great country you live in. Find another country if you hate this one down to the core of its founders.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rmc51 View Post
    Removal of Confederate monuments: Ok. Sorry if you're great great grandpappy fought on the wrong side. Don't need a statue. My great great grandpappy didn't fight for the wrong side and he doesn't have a statue either.

    Removal of American heroes (Washington, Jefferson): Not ok. Have some respect for the great country you live in. Find another country if you hate this one down to the core of its founders.
    Mostly agree except for the "love it or leave it".

    It's not rocket science, and I don't really think it's a slippery slope. Target Confederate monuments, names, etc.. That's it.

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    Yeah, to me, this is a simple one to navigate — Confederate statues everywhere should be torn down. They were insurrectionists who fought against the United States. Fuck them, and fuck what they fought for.

    That's the lane. If you are trying to use this to widen the lane and tear down monuments of the rest of our country's history because it doesn't comport to modern ethical standards and morals, you're starting from a fundamentally flawed and dishonest position. Yes, Jefferson had slaves. But that's not what defined him as a man, a patriot, and a nation-building founder. To tear his monuments down alongside Lee is to view them as equals when they sure as fuck aren't. Lee's legacy is defined solely by his leading an insurrectionist army too overthrow the United States in order to preserve slavery. Jefferson's legacy is — or should be — defined by his foundational principles of reason and logic and the guiding hand of his political influence which largely crafted our Declaration of Independence and established our national morality (if such a thing still exists).

    Dr. Clarence Jones — a black speechwriter for Martin Luther King Jr. — nailed it when he said of Washington and Jefferson:

    "There was no question they were morally compromised in their effort to fashion together this new country, a republic, based on the principles and precepts enshrined in the Declaration of Independence.

    "But neither of those two persons led the nation in treasonous insurrection to overthrow the government they had formed in order to preserve the institution of slavery. Period.

    "On the contrary, they devoted their life to saving and founding this country."
    So did Pete Buttigieg, albeit speaking about something entirely different, when he said:

    "This is the problem with issuing purity tests you cannot yourself pass."
    "Everyone says you should be a good loser. If you’re a good loser, you’re a loser."
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    "Never be a spectator of unfairness or stupidity. Seek out argument and disputation for their own sake; the grave will supply plenty of time for silence."
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    Quote Originally Posted by rmc51 View Post
    Removal of Confederate monuments: Ok. Sorry if you're great great grandpappy fought on the wrong side. Don't need a statue. My great great grandpappy didn't fight for the wrong side and he doesn't have a statue either.

    Removal of American heroes (Washington, Jefferson): Not ok. Have some respect for the great country you live in. Find another country if you hate this one down to the core of its founders.
    Yup. 100% agreed here.

    I must admit, I don't really understand how one can consider both the Confederacy and the United States their "heritage" and not find themselves in some sort of conflict. The Confederacy was an insurgent nation that violated the US Constitution to maintain the institution of slavery (let's not entertain the "states rights" argument; their declaration of independence cites slavery 18 times, and explicitly states that the reason for secession is "that the north has elected a man hostile to slavery as President"), subsequently waged war against the USA, and lost. What about this is heritage - doubly so as an American? Like, did we have statues of King George III getting fought over in the 1790s because some Massachuetts Pilgrims were screaming about their heritage?

    I don't get it.
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    The problem is, while I agree that the confederate crap should be gone, its spread into going after everyone. No one is perfect and squeaky clean, so now they are all going after ever person we've honored. At some point enough needs to be enough. It disgusts me that they are going after Washington, Jefferson, Roosevelt. These are people that changed our nation for the good, to dishonor them is atrocious. Fuck General Lee, not the car, the person, but not Teddy.

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    My biggest issue is the argument that the statues are about preserving history, and taking down statues is trying to erase history.

    that's not true at all though. Statues honor people/causes. Put these things in museums, teach about the civil war in schools. But to erect a statue of, or to name a school after confederate generals and whatnot, those are honors.

    It's not a coincidence that the majority of these statues were erected during jim crow and the civil rights movement. And anyone who tells you the civil war was NOT about slavery is being completely ignorant of history. That doesn't mean that people in the north were fans of black people at the time, but it was about slavery nonetheless.

    There's a reason the confederate flag is flown by white nationalists and nazis and the KKK. I can't imagine what it feels like for any black person to have to walk by confederate monuments every day or send their children to schools named after people who, if they had their way, would have enslaved them.

    So how it applies to others that maybe weren't confederates but were slave owners (as is being debated across the country. Here in Albany we're taking down our Phillip Schuyler statue), as we take down other statues, the same logic applies. We can learn about people, about their impact on the country, about their contributions. We can teach our children about them. But putting up statues of people is a way to honor them for being great. And I don't think anyone who owned slaves was great. They may have done great things. But they also participated in arguably the most awful thing to happen in human history.
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    John Oliver's segment is a few years old but it's really good

    Last edited by BlairBettsBlocksEverything; 06-23-2020 at 11:52 AM.
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    Yeah, you can make a water tight argument about the South in regards to slavery and their reason for fighting, and that's probably all you need to remove monuments to that effect, but slavery as a question for the Union had no bearing on their decision whatsoever.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NYR2711 View Post
    The problem is, while I agree that the confederate crap should be gone, its spread into going after everyone. No one is perfect and squeaky clean, so now they are all going after ever person we've honored. At some point enough needs to be enough. It disgusts me that they are going after Washington, Jefferson, Roosevelt. These are people that changed our nation for the good, to dishonor them is atrocious. Fuck General Lee, not the car, the person, but not Teddy.
    I think it's healthy to revisit legacies upon new information, or to view them through the current state of things. It's a good idea, especially as new information comes to light. This isn't really new information though; we know our founding fathers and our most legendary presidents had views and took actions that rightfully would garner criticism in today's world. Washington and Jefferson both have clouds in their legacies, but that shouldn't change their impact on history; history is littered with great people who by modern standards would be very heavily questioned. American presidents aren't immune; Washington and Jefferson were slaveowners; I'd reckon most of the first 10 Presidents were. Andrew Jackson was a slaveowner, a nepotist, and slaughtered indigenous people by the thousands. Ulysses Grant was an unbelievable drunk. Heck, how do we reckon with Lyndon Johnson, who was famously a sexual harrassment lawsuit waiting to happen? Or FDR, since socialism is basically a naughty word to half the country? Or Woodrow Wilson's noted and pronounced racism? Or JFK's extramarital affairs? All of these things are damning by modern standards (maybe not JFK, see Clinton, Bill and Trump, Donald), but are they such overarching flaws given the times they lived in that their positives should be stricken alongside their negatives?

    Theodore Roosevelt is interesting for a series of reasons. First, the issue at hand isn't so much Roosevelt himself, but the wars he fought (he was an aggressive imperialist) and the depictions of indigenous "trophies" on a lot of these statues. This isn't really a Roosevelt reckoning as much as it is a reckoning on the impact of imperialism, I think. Second, it very much falls into the category earlier - Roosevelt is 100% a person who did things consistent with the times he lived in that just would not stand up to today. The irony of Roosevelt being a flashpoint and how he's positioned - right defending, left asking for the takedown - is hilarious to me. Doubly so since Theodore Roosevelt's singular most important stances - and the ones he's most remembered for - were around the importance of ecology and the failure of capitalism to effectively trickle down to the employee. Feels like we're all on the wrong sides here.

    Again though, we're left asking if the negatives outweigh the positives such that it warrants removal of a monument honoring that person. And maybe we're doing so from a position of having benefited from those positives - especially in Roosevelt's case - which may be fair criticism too.
    Last edited by G1000; 06-23-2020 at 11:58 AM.
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    Removal of Confederate Monuments

    I think Roosevelt, (Teddy) would be a Democrat today. A very pro 2nd amendment moderate democrat, but a democrat none the less.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Puck Head View Post
    I think Roosevelt, (Teddy) would be a Democrat today. A very pro 2nd amendment moderate democrat, but a democrat none the less.


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    Hard to say. His second term (so to speak, since he was technically only elected once as his Bull Moose Party nomination would suggest) probably marks the beginning of the ideological "flip" of the Democratic and Republican parties. His actions would both piss off and overjoy both sides with relatively equal measure, as the left decries his cultural policies but loves his economic policies and the right calls him a communist but love his cultural stances.

    Probably why he's generally revered as a president/badass
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    Removal of Confederate Monuments

    Quote Originally Posted by G1000 View Post
    Hard to say. His second term (so to speak, since he was technically only elected once as his Bull Moose Party nomination would suggest) probably marks the beginning of the ideological "flip" of the Democratic and Republican parties. His actions would both piss off and overjoy both sides with relatively equal measure, as the left decries his cultural policies but loves his economic policies and the right calls him a communist but love his cultural stances.

    Probably why he's generally revered as a president/badass
    Was there any president stronger in regards to environmental policy?
    Anti trust acts, labor support, food and drug acts, addressing political corruption, THE champion for women’s rights, proponent for national healthcare, conservation..........all very progressive ideas even today.
    He also opposed putting In God We Trust on currency.
    Amazing how far “right” the right has gone.


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    Last edited by Puck Head; 06-23-2020 at 01:52 PM.

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    Hey - can we just start over with Adam and Eve?

    (PREDICTION: Somebody gonna' dig up dirt on one or both of them within the next 5 posts. LOL)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Puck Head View Post
    Was there any president stronger in regards to environmental policy?
    Anti trust acts, labor support, food and drug acts, addressing political corruption, THE champion for women’s rights, proponent for national healthcare, conservation..........all very progressive ideas even today.
    He also opposed putting In God We Trust on currency.
    Amazing how far “right” the right has gone.


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    There will never be a POTUS like him because he cared for the people and worked for them. None of today’s politicians have the spine like he does. Today, he would be an Independent party politician.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 4EverRangerFrank View Post
    Hey - can we just start over with Adam and Eve?

    (PREDICTION: Somebody gonna' dig up dirt on one or both of them within the next 5 posts. LOL)
    Did you know Eve was an ophiophilist?
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    Quote Originally Posted by G1000 View Post
    Did you know Eve was an ophiophilist?
    You got me on that one. LOL Snake lover...ha! BTW - it’s worth 22 points in Scrabble.

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    Is there a Hitler statue in Germany, reminding them all of their rich history?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    Is there a Hitler statue in Germany, reminding them all of their rich history?
    No.

    And it's really incredible. I went for a walking tour of Berlin when I was there and one of the first stops was this parking lot of an apartment building (I think). The tour guide said we were standing on where Hitler's bunker was when he shot himself. There's a small information board outside the parking lot he showed us afterwards, but nothing would have led you to believe anything important happened there if you were just passing by. It was just a parking lot.

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