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Thread: Adam Fox is a Stud

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drew a Penalty View Post
    We haven't had enough of a chance to see if someone can't be transitioned to another side. Quinn began using Fox and DeAngelo together at 4 on 4 and during offensive zone starts. Who's to say that DeAngelo can't learn to play on Trouba's left? The most NHL ready defenseman the Rangers have is yet another right-handed player in Lundkvist. Even then, we don't know how ready he is.

    What holes need to be addressed that can't be from within? You say trade DeAngelo for a wing? Why? How does that help? Panarin and Kreider are locked in on the top two left-wing spots for the perpetual future. Buchnevich likely doesn't have much time left on the team, but then you have Kakko, Kravtsov, and Gauthier all waiting to move up. They need time, but they'll hopefully get there and be cost-controlled. Adding another wing via trade probably means more salary which aligns with more of your "spending for the sake of spending" notion.
    You would have to ask Quinn why ADA isn't playing the left. He wants righties on the right side and lefties on the left side.

    Aside from that, ADA isn't going to play against the same competition Trouba is. So realistically, they'll never be a pair unless ADAs D dramatically improves.

    I'm not penciling in Gauthier for anything other than bottom 6. Fast is currently a top 6 player... And Kravtsov at this point is nothing but a wild card.

    They can absolutely use another wing and getting one today doesn't mean it has to be big money today.

    And then there is Nils....

    Look, I don't want to trade ADA but the fact is that Quinn plays his lefty righty thing, they won't trade Trouba, you can't pay everyone, they have a surplus of RD and you can get a boatload for him. He's the logical candidate to move.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keirik View Post
    A large reason we are on the up is because of ADA. You just don’t get rid of that. Offensively Fox is good but ADA is a large step above in my opinion. He improves the offense just be being an elite threat back there.
    I’ll never understand this logic of getting rid of a 23 yr old elite offensive d because we have a 21 year old 40 point rookie d. If ADA is really worth a truckload then I’d rather keep that talent in the first place. Try to lock him up for the next 2-3 years. Fox is an RFA for the start of the 22/23 season. The bigger decision can be made then. It’s also when Kakko hits RFA, Ziby UFA, and possibly Buch if his RFA deal is only a one year show me. That’s two more seasons worth of keeping threats together for a cup run. That is still the goal right?
    Unless other things change this team is nowhere near good enough to win a cup in the next two seasons.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    Unless other things change this team is nowhere near good enough to win a cup in the next two seasons.
    And that will happen (other things changing) if you let your team develop and gel as a team and system. Shesh for a full year, Kakko develop, Chytl, ziby continue the upswing, Fox and ADA improve, losing the excess “baggage” for lack of a better word in Staal, Smith, and to a lesser extent Henrik.
    I don’t see this team nearly as far away as you I guess but that’s the beauty of opinions. There are some seriously good core pieces here. I don’t see the need to trade one of them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    You would have to ask Quinn why ADA isn't playing the left. He wants righties on the right side and lefties on the left side.

    Aside from that, ADA isn't going to play against the same competition Trouba is. So realistically, they'll never be a pair unless ADAs D dramatically improves.

    I'm not penciling in Gauthier for anything other than bottom 6. Fast is currently a top 6 player... And Kravtsov at this point is nothing but a wild card.

    They can absolutely use another wing and getting one today doesn't mean it has to be big money today.

    And then there is Nils....

    Look, I don't want to trade ADA but the fact is that Quinn plays his lefty righty thing, they won't trade Trouba, you can't pay everyone, they have a surplus of RD and you can get a boatload for him. He's the logical candidate to move.
    Lindgren-Fox has become the de facto top pair. I can't see why Trouba can't be a steady partner for DeAngelo. Just tell Trouba to not lose positioning by trying to blow people up as often as he does. There's also nothing that really indicates a preference to left-right exclusive. That's just been the makeup of the defensive corps based on numbers. I'm sure if Quinn had more steady and talented options he would be open to experimentation if it worked.

    Fast is currently a top-six player because Kakko hasn't been. Kravtsov and Gauthier should be given opportunities to play on higher lines. Acquiring another wing, the least valuable position, is bad asset management. Who would they acquire that wouldn't need significant money. You're suggesting cashing in on DeAngelo so that means acquiring someone of equivalent value in what will presumably be a hockey trade. Who's available one-for-one that won't mean significant money in the immediate future or won't be prohibitive of top-six prospects playing in their eventual supposed roles?

    I've already mentioned Lundkvist. He's talented, sure. We don't know what kind of role he plays in the NHL.

    There's no pressing need for cap space like you're making out. Will they have to eventually trade Trouba? Probably. Is that in issue now when there's a guaranteed $20M+ coming off the books after 20-21 with no significant players up for extension save Shesterkin? No.

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    What have Gauthier, Kravtsov and even Kakko done to deserve playing on higher lines which I assume means top six? There's a whole lot of unknown there and IF Quinn is in theory at least sticking with his meritocracy they aren't top six players. I would do a ADA or better yet Trouba for a proven cost controlled top six solid winger.
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    What do you do when they are ready then? Who's this "cost-controlled solid winger" you're talking about? Why would someone trade them for Trouba who isn't? That's just poor asset management. Trading DeAngelo for a wing when you have talent in the wings is also poor asset management.

    If there's a worry about Kakko, Gauthier or Kravtsov being inadequate in a top-six role in the short-term then get a stopgap. You can sign one of those through free agency or trade for them by not using a valuable asset like DeAngelo. If you're trading a 60 point pacing defenseman, which don't grow on trees, at least make a trade for another center. Throw Strome on the wing. Don't make a shortsighted move.

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    IF ADA is that good there's not going to be anybody offering established cost controlled wingers for him? Certainly respect your opinion if you don't agree with moving him but to infer there would be nobody worth while out there to get for a guy some here hold so highly regarded is playing both sides of the argument. Wouldn't all kinds of teams be lining up for such a stud? Wouldn't we be dealing from strength again if he's such a stud? I think that's part of the problem, he's a one way guy who still can't defend much if at all most nights. DOn't make a short sighted move whole also not overplaying your hand.
    Last edited by jsrangers; 05-23-2020 at 07:34 PM.
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    Who are we trading our 60-70 point 23 year old rfa for that is going to be equal to in talent, production, age, and cost controlled? Or are we talking to dump ADA for a 40-50 point player?

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    I said who's trading a cost-controlled player for Trouba. Go back and read what I said regarding ADA. Anyone you're acquiring is either going to be cost-controlled short-term or be prohibitive for prospects who should be moving up the ranks soon. I never said no one would want him. That's you making that up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Keirik View Post
    Who are we trading our 60-70 point 23 year old rfa for that is going to be equal to in talent, production, age, and cost controlled? Or are we talking to dump ADA for a 40-50 point player?
    Exactly this. If you're acquiring someone of equal talent then it needs to be someone like Matt Tkachuk or Elias Lindholm from Calgary for instance. The issue being that Tkachuk is already earning $7M per season with only two more years left on his deal, and there's no reason to trade someone like Lindholm, a 30 goal scorer, on a sub $5M deal for four more seasons. It's then a bad sign for the up and coming players like Kakko et al. who are then blocked off from ever achieving any top-six role.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jsrangers View Post
    IF ADA is that good there's not going to be anybody offering established cost controlled wingers for him? Certainly respect your opinion if you don't agree with moving him but to infer there would be nobody worth while out there to get for a guy some here hold so highly regarded is playing both sides of the argument. Wouldn't all kinds of teams be lining up for such a stud? Wouldn't we be dealing from strength again if he's such a stud? I think that's part of the problem, he's a one way guy who still can't defend much if at all most nights. DOn't make a short sighted move whole also not overplaying your hand.
    It’s not that teams wouldn’t be interested in him. It’s that there really aren’t that many cost effective wingers that put up impactful numbers and aren’t about to break the bank and the ones that are, teams that have them tend not to deal. Think Zibanejad. At 5.9m the Rangers would be nuts to deal him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drew a Penalty View Post
    Lindgren-Fox has become the de facto top pair. I can't see why Trouba can't be a steady partner for DeAngelo. Just tell Trouba to not lose positioning by trying to blow people up as often as he does. There's also nothing that really indicates a preference to left-right exclusive. That's just been the makeup of the defensive corps based on numbers. I'm sure if Quinn had more steady and talented options he would be open to experimentation if it worked.

    Fast is currently a top-six player because Kakko hasn't been. Kravtsov and Gauthier should be given opportunities to play on higher lines. Acquiring another wing, the least valuable position, is bad asset management. Who would they acquire that wouldn't need significant money. You're suggesting cashing in on DeAngelo so that means acquiring someone of equivalent value in what will presumably be a hockey trade. Who's available one-for-one that won't mean significant money in the immediate future or won't be prohibitive of top-six prospects playing in their eventual supposed roles?

    I've already mentioned Lundkvist. He's talented, sure. We don't know what kind of role he plays in the NHL.

    There's no pressing need for cap space like you're making out. Will they have to eventually trade Trouba? Probably. Is that in issue now when there's a guaranteed $20M+ coming off the books after 20-21 with no significant players up for extension save Shesterkin? No.
    LOL what? The ice time charts don't say Lindgren and Fox are the top pair. Neither does common sense so stop trying to bend it to fit your narrative.

    Your post is ripe with assumptions. There's nothing proving lefty righty positioning except the fact that Quinn moves with lefty righty positioning.

    I wanted to go point by point but there's not really a reason to.

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    I also love how the same people who want multiple successful seasons as proof of everything are willing to buy off on ADA after one season.

    He could totally flop next year.

    These are the same people who don't want to sign Strome.

    Pick your lane guys.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    LOL what? The ice time charts don't say Lindgren and Fox are the top pair. Neither does common sense so stop trying to bend it to fit your narrative.

    Your post is ripe with assumptions. There's nothing proving lefty righty positioning except the fact that Quinn moves with lefty righty positioning.

    I wanted to go point by point but there's not really a reason to.
    Except for the fact that from January onward Trouba only had a slight ice time advantage over Fox which decreased as the season went on. Seems pretty much like he overtook him there at the end. But "common sense." Okay, bud.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    I also love how the same people who want multiple successful seasons as proof of everything are willing to buy off on ADA after one season.

    He could totally flop next year.

    These are the same people who don't want to sign Strome.

    Pick your lane guys.
    I think that might be less to do with a lane and more to do with Strome being 26 and in his 7th year in the league of a yo-yo career. ADA is 23. Personally I think they need both of them.

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    Ada has already shown his cards contract ask wise when he had zero leverage. There's a pretty decent chance he's could price himself out of here long term anyway which I believe was part of the original theme here which was you can't afford to pay everyone especially a 3rd pair one way dman when it's a position of strength. In three years I would bet against all three of them still being here.
    Quote Originally Posted by Keirik View Post
    It’s not that teams wouldn’t be interested in him. It’s that there really aren’t that many cost effective wingers that put up impactful numbers and aren’t about to break the bank and the ones that are, teams that have them tend not to deal. Think Zibanejad. At 5.9m the Rangers would be nuts to deal him.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drew a Penalty View Post
    Exactly this. If you're acquiring someone of equal talent then it needs to be someone like Matt Tkachuk or Elias Lindholm from Calgary for instance. The issue being that Tkachuk is already earning $7M per season with only two more years left on his deal, and there's no reason to trade someone like Lindholm, a 30 goal scorer, on a sub $5M deal for four more seasons. It's then a bad sign for the up and coming players like Kakko et al. who are then blocked off from ever achieving any top-six role.
    Even if we pretend dumping DeAngelo wasn't to clear cap space, and was just to get any winger regardless of cap hit, it wouldn't get Tkachuk. And if that was on the table, I'm making the trade and making the space for Tkachuk. But everyone here knows that's not going to happen.

    I haven't seen any names proposed as being 1) somewhere near DeAngelo's talent level and worth, 2) being cost controlled for the Rangers to save $$, and 3) the trading partner is willing to pay DeAngelo on a contract that's more than the player they are trading. I don't see how the Rangers get anywhere near equivalent value while also clearing cap.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    I also love how the same people who want multiple successful seasons as proof of everything are willing to buy off on ADA after one season.

    He could totally flop next year.

    These are the same people who don't want to sign Strome.

    Pick your lane guys.
    One passes the eye test. The other doesn't. Unless we are talking about which one takes the laziest penalties. One carried Staal. The other got carried by Panarin. One was top 5 in points scored at his position. The other is a serviceable, yet replaceable, middle 6 player. It's an easy lane to pick.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jsrangers View Post
    Ada has already shown his cards contract ask wise when he had zero leverage. There's a pretty decent chance he's could price himself out of here long term anyway which I believe was part of the original theme here which was you can't afford to pay everyone especially a 3rd pair one way dman when it's a position of strength. In three years I would bet against all three of them still being here.
    Well I suppose we will see. I get he took a hard stand but that doesn’t mean these two sides can’t get a 2-3 year deal for under 6m. He still is an RFA. Still up in the air if this pandemic helps or hurts any contract negotiations too.

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by rmc51 View Post
    One passes the eye test. The other doesn't. Unless we are talking about which one takes the laziest penalties. One carried Staal. The other got carried by Panarin. One was top 5 in points scored at his position. The other is a serviceable, yet replaceable, middle 6 player. It's an easy lane to pick.
    You're the only one hooked on the "lazy penalty" bandwagon.

    ADA carried Staal? You also say Staal is garbage so ADA didn't carry him too far.

    Strome got carried by Panarin? Guess Strome is so heavy Panarin couldn't carry Fast the same way.

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