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Thread: Rangers Locking Up Tony DeAngelo is Far From No-Brainer

  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuc View Post
    Fox has 2 years left on his ELC before many years as a RFA. A lot can happen by then, including a lot of dead cap space and some big horrible contracts will be gone.

    I dont get this "you cant pay much money for 3 RHD's" thing. 1) yes you can. 2) Fox won't get paid before atleast 2022. 3) One of the 3 could switch to the left side.

    ADA (6m) - Trouba (8m)
    Lindgren (ELC) - Fox (ELC)
    Someone - Lundkvist (ELC)

    If this is the defense in the 2021/22 season. How is this too much money for the D? in 2022 Fox will get paid, Lindgren will be bridged, Lundkvist still on ELC and a 3rd pair LD shouldnt be too expensive. Still not too much money on the D.
    You absolutely have to cap how much you're willing to pay on a position. It's a cap-leage. Every slot has its worth. You save a little money here or there, but overall you can't tie up over 15 million dollars on right defense.

    We haven't even talked about the financial situation of the league and the fact that the cap not only might not rise when they play again, it could even fall.

    Well-known fact, you can't pay everybody in your system. Eventually you have to make choices. Teams do it every day.
    Last edited by Pete; 03-31-2020 at 01:10 PM.

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    I know. Im just trying to keep the board going so I have something to do/read while I stay inside lol.

    Everything about the league is just a big question mark atm.

    That said, 15m on the right side sounds much, but when we only have rookies to play on the left side after next season, its not really a big problem. If we have 15m on the right side and 8m (one 5-6m, Lindgren ELC and a rookie on ELC or a 3rd pair LD on a min contract), is that really a problem? 23-25m on the defense is not so much.


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  3. #103
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    You can sign DeAngelo for 5 or 6 years now and trade later if you really want to. The first 3 years of the contract will not have trade protection since those are still RFA years. That means you can sign him and take your time about it. His value will also be higher in a deal if he's relatively cost controlled for 2-3 more seasons when a trade is made. A decision to trade him is not needed this summer or even next summer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuc View Post
    Fox has 2 years left on his ELC before many years as a RFA. A lot can happen by then, including a lot of dead cap space and some big horrible contracts will be gone.

    I dont get this "you cant pay much money for 3 RHD's" thing. 1) yes you can. 2) Fox won't get paid before atleast 2022. 3) One of the 3 could switch to the left side.

    ADA (6m) - Trouba (8m)
    Lindgren (ELC) - Fox (ELC)
    Someone - Lundkvist (ELC)

    If this is the defense in the 2021/22 season. How is this too much money for the D? in 2022 Fox will get paid, Lindgren will be bridged, Lundkvist still on ELC and a 3rd pair LD shouldnt be too expensive. Still not too much money on the D.
    The issue isn't so much "you cant pay much money for 3 RHD's" as "how much can you pay for roles". Moving ADA to the left doesn't make him a top pair D. If you give ADA 10% less OZ starts and trough him out there against the other teams top line then A) They're gonna get scored on a lot, and B) ADA won't produce as much. Regardless of the side ADA plays he's a 3rd pair PP specialist. Finding a 1st pair LD to play with Trouba is more important. I'd rather pay, say a Jonas Brodin (UFA in 2021) than ADA.

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Long live the King View Post
    The issue isn't so much "you cant pay much money for 3 RHD's" as "how much can you pay for roles". Moving ADA to the left doesn't make him a top pair D. If you give ADA 10% less OZ starts and trough him out there against the other teams top line then A) They're gonna get scored on a lot, and B) ADA won't produce as much. Regardless of the side ADA plays he's a 3rd pair PP specialist. Finding a 1st pair LD to play with Trouba is more important. I'd rather pay, say a Jonas Brodin (UFA in 2021) than ADA.
    He's more than that. He's 3rd in the league amongst defenseman in even strength points. He elevates players around him every bit as much at even strength as on the PP.

    We can talk about defensive deficiencies, but he had improved from dreadful last season to average towards the middle to end of this season.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rmc51 View Post
    He's more than that. He's 3rd in the league amongst defenseman in even strength points. He elevates players around him every bit as much at even strength as on the PP.

    We can talk about defensive deficiencies, but he had improved from dreadful last season to average towards the middle to end of this season.
    Cool, if he wasn't it'd be embarrassing. He started 56.3% of his shifts in the OZ. When you get those OZ starts and have the #3 and 7 P/G scorers in the league you're going to put up some points. You pair him with Trouba he isn't getting those opportunities nearly as much. Now he's spending his shifts chasing Pastrnak, Kucherov, Marner, and Svechnikov around in his own zone.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Long live the King View Post
    Cool, if he wasn't it'd be embarrassing. He started 56.3% of his shifts in the OZ. When you get those OZ starts and have the #3 and 7 P/G scorers in the league you're going to put up some points. You pair him with Trouba he isn't getting those opportunities nearly as much. Now he's spending his shifts chasing Pastrnak, Kucherov, Marner, and Svechnikov around in his own zone.
    It would be embarrassing if he was less than top 3 in defensemen ES points scored? Is that really what you want to hang your hat on?

    Who's to say he isn't spending those shifts with the puck on his stick, resulting in those guys having it on their sticks less often? You know what they say about what the best defense is, and it's extremely applicable in today's game.

    Also, let's not forget that DeAngelo has had to carry Marc Staal as his partner the majority of the time. You know, the guy who fumbles pucks away in his own zone all game long. So while competition gets tougher against other team's top lines, playing with Trouba is a significant step up.

  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Long live the King View Post
    The issue isn't so much "you cant pay much money for 3 RHD's" as "how much can you pay for roles". Moving ADA to the left doesn't make him a top pair D. If you give ADA 10% less OZ starts and trough him out there against the other teams top line then A) They're gonna get scored on a lot, and B) ADA won't produce as much. Regardless of the side ADA plays he's a 3rd pair PP specialist. Finding a 1st pair LD to play with Trouba is more important. I'd rather pay, say a Jonas Brodin (UFA in 2021) than ADA.
    Yea, I would never, ever, try to put ADA against another team's best lines in the D-Zone.

    That's just asking for trouble for a team that's not great at faceoffs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rmc51 View Post
    It would be embarrassing if he was less than top 3 in defensemen ES points scored? Is that really what you want to hang your hat on?

    Who's to say he isn't spending those shifts with the puck on his stick, resulting in those guys having it on their sticks less often? You know what they say about what the best defense is, and it's extremely applicable in today's game.

    Also, let's not forget that DeAngelo has had to carry Marc Staal as his partner the majority of the time. You know, the guy who fumbles pucks away in his own zone all game long. So while competition gets tougher against other team's top lines, playing with Trouba is a significant step up.
    No, what I'm hanging my hat on is that the TEAM offense is not going to suffer when Fox goes from 18:54 m/g this year to 20+ next year. The TEAM offense won't suffer if you give say Lundkvist, a youngster perfectly capable of moving the puck, a bunch of OZ starts with Panarin and Zibanejad. Likewise, my argument is that the TEAM defense will be vastly improved by paying a player like Brodin $6.5M per year versus paying ADA $6.5M per year.


    Hypothetically, what you're shooting for with a Brodin v. ADA swap is a trade off of slightly less GF/G to make a big improvement in GA/G. So instead of the 2019/2020 NYR being 5th at 3.33 GF/G and 23rd at 3.14 GA/G they align closer to the 2019/2020 Blues being 14th at 3.14 GF/G and 5th at 2.68 GA/G.

    You're ok scoring .2 less, because you can prevent .5 more.

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Long live the King View Post
    No, what I'm hanging my hat on is that the TEAM offense is not going to suffer when Fox goes from 18:54 m/g this year to 20+ next year. The TEAM offense won't suffer if you give say Lundkvist, a youngster perfectly capable of moving the puck, a bunch of OZ starts with Panarin and Zibanejad. Likewise, my argument is that the TEAM defense will be vastly improved by paying a player like Brodin $6.5M per year versus paying ADA $6.5M per year.


    Hypothetically, what you're shooting for with a Brodin v. ADA swap is a trade off of slightly less GF/G to make a big improvement in GA/G. So instead of the 2019/2020 NYR being 5th at 3.33 GF/G and 23rd at 3.14 GA/G they align closer to the 2019/2020 Blues being 14th at 3.14 GF/G and 5th at 2.68 GA/G.

    You're ok scoring .2 less, because you can prevent .5 more.
    All great in theory, but you aren't recognizing that Fox has had the same sheltered OZS% as DeAngelo, and with a significantly better defensive partner than Staal. Yeah, he has been better at passing the eye test in the defensive zone than DeAngelo, but he hasn't been saddled with a partner like Staal. Staal is shockingly bad now and that cannot be understated.

    As far as Lundkvist goes, he hasn't played a single minute over here so I'm not about to start penciling him in for DeAngelo with no degradation to the team offense. I've seen too many guys in these inferior leagues with good stats coming over and sinking or barely floating along. Even if he pans out, it might be several years before he's any good. He's just a kid.

    We need a 1LD, no question. I've been saying for a while now that the one move the Rangers need to make this summer is to find one. Not sure why that needs to be tied to trading DeAngelo. We've been through a bunch of cap projections here and there's no reason to rush it. If you need cap space in 2 or 3 years, then trade him at that point after you see how the roster has filled out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rmc51 View Post
    All great in theory, but you aren't recognizing that Fox has had the same sheltered OZS% as DeAngelo, and with a significantly better defensive partner than Staal. Yeah, he has been better at passing the eye test in the defensive zone than DeAngelo, but he hasn't been saddled with a partner like Staal. Staal is shockingly bad now and that cannot be understated.

    As far as Lundkvist goes, he hasn't played a single minute over here so I'm not about to start penciling him in for DeAngelo with no degradation to the team offense. I've seen too many guys in these inferior leagues with good stats coming over and sinking or barely floating along. Even if he pans out, it might be several years before he's any good. He's just a kid.

    We need a 1LD, no question. I've been saying for a while now that the one move the Rangers need to make this summer is to find one. Not sure why that needs to be tied to trading DeAngelo. We've been through a bunch of cap projections here and there's no reason to rush it. If you need cap space in 2 or 3 years, then trade him at that point after you see how the roster has filled out.
    Yes, Fox gets the same sheltering as ADA, great. You don't have to change how Fox is deployed, you just deploy Fox more.

    ADA and Fox have this role where they get favorable OZ starts split about 50-50 with both getting between about 16-17 minutes per game 5v5. Swap ADA for Lundkvist. Roles/deployment remain the same, but Fox gets 18-19 minutes and Lundkvist gets 13-14.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Long live the King View Post
    Yes, Fox gets the same sheltering as ADA, great. You don't have to change how Fox is deployed, you just deploy Fox more.

    ADA and Fox have this role where they get favorable OZ starts split about 50-50 with both getting between about 16-17 minutes per game 5v5. Swap ADA for Lundkvist. Roles/deployment remain the same, but Fox gets 18-19 minutes and Lundkvist gets 13-14.
    Fair enough. It's a viable and reasonable path forward. I'm just in the "Tony D is too good at hockey boat" to be the player who gets pushed out.

    That might change if they do trade him, depending on the return. I'm operating from the viewpoint that we won't get what I think he's worth.

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    Don't get me wrong. I'd love to see ADA signed long term and be able to add a #1 LHD. But you can't, because salary cap. So when you have to choose, and you have Adam Fox on your team, the choice seems pretty easy to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Long live the King View Post
    The issue isn't so much "you cant pay much money for 3 RHD's" as "how much can you pay for roles". Moving ADA to the left doesn't make him a top pair D. If you give ADA 10% less OZ starts and trough him out there against the other teams top line then A) They're gonna get scored on a lot, and B) ADA won't produce as much. Regardless of the side ADA plays he's a 3rd pair PP specialist. Finding a 1st pair LD to play with Trouba is more important. I'd rather pay, say a Jonas Brodin (UFA in 2021) than ADA.
    Who's to say that putting DeAngelo out there against top lines, doesn't give HIM an advantage? Having him out there MORE with the top six, may result in more time spent in the offensive zone. Add in that the top six is probably more defensively sound than the bottom six and I see little reason to be frightened to put DeAngelo out there more.

    Why is it always the Rangers are thinking they are outclassed by other teams top lines? That's not really the case anymore. Stack that offense and dominate.

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    Well because he's generally not a good defender? Don't the numbers prove that for the most part? I guess we either trust that Quinn knows what he's doing or he doesn't.
    A wise man once said: Vote Nonpathological 2020.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Dude View Post

    Why is it always the Rangers are thinking they are outclassed by other teams top lines? That's not really the case anymore. Stack that offense and dominate.
    Because they're one of the worst defensive teams in the NHL by almost every metric?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    Because they're one of the worst defensive teams in the NHL by almost every metric?
    That's because of Staal, Smith, and the rest of the mediocre to bad trash they have been forced to put out there. And to a lesser degree, Skjei. I think that changes for next year. I see them making a move to help solidify the left side.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rmc51 View Post
    That's because of Staal, Smith, and the rest of the mediocre to bad trash they have been forced to put out there. And to a lesser degree, Skjei. I think that changes for next year. I see them making a move to help solidify the left side.
    OK... But ADA doesn't help that.

    Regardless of who his partner is, ADA is a nightmare in coverage. That's his own shortcoming. Staal is actually a pretty positionally sound defenseman, you just don't want him handling the puck. ADA just has no clue what the fuck is going on in the D zone.

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    This is the complication with ADA. Bad in coverage to the point of at times just looking lost and apathetic about playing D.
    That will not improve by moving him to the other side, so IMO moving him to the other side is not a hugely viable option at this point. As for him improving defensively, his doing so is at least somewhat questionable and if he does, it won’t be huge.

    If you move Fox or Trouba, you’re presumably playing one of those guys with ADA. Goal here is to play ADA more if giving him a big payday. If they all stay as RD, Trouba and Fox are likely going to get a minimum of 42 minutes a night combined. So Trouba or Fox has to go to left side or you’re paying a guy $5-6 million per to play 18 minutes. That’s bad cap/roster management.

    Eliminate moving Trouba. ADA isn’t playing with him on the top pair as Trouba will continue to draw the tough assignments playing big minutes vs other teams top lines and carry a huge number of DZone starts.

    That leaves moving Fox. This is viable. But it’s still questionable given the fact that Fox will play more and more minutes in all situations because he’s so competent. He’ll get his share of tough assignments too. Coaches trust him as they should and are clearly comfortable to running him out there basically whenever against basically anyone. Looking like that feeling will only get stronger. But it’s complicated to do that if you don’t trust the guys partner.

    Which brings us back to where we are.
    Pay ADA big money to play on a 3rd pair and run your PP, while having to shelter his minutes, heavily manage his zone starts, and carefully watch the matchups he faces.

    And do you get the most out of ADA long-term if he’s on a bottom pair and you’re limiting his minutes and having to meticulously manage his deployment? Are they willing to do that over the course of a 5 or 6 year deal?

    If you feel his offense is worth the money and management of his ice time, then you do it. Otherwise you don’t and it’s trade or a bridge deal.
    It’s really a matter of opinion. And honestly, there’s really not a wrong answer.
    All options have their merits, demerits, and risks.
    The organization being unwilling to move guys to their offside is a factor.
    How ADA and his camp are in any negotiations and what they’re asking for are factors.
    Development of guys in pipeline is a factor.


    This could go anyway.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RangersIn7 View Post
    This is the complication with ADA. Bad in coverage to the point of at times just looking lost and apathetic about playing D.
    That will not improve by moving him to the other side, so IMO moving him to the other side is not a hugely viable option at this point. As for him improving defensively, his doing so is at least somewhat questionable and if he does, it won’t be huge.

    If you move Fox or Trouba, you’re presumably playing one of those guys with ADA. Goal here is to play ADA more if giving him a big payday. If they all stay as RD, Trouba and Fox are likely going to get a minimum of 42 minutes a night combined. So Trouba or Fox has to go to left side or you’re paying a guy $5-6 million per to play 18 minutes. That’s bad cap/roster management.

    Eliminate moving Trouba. ADA isn’t playing with him on the top pair as Trouba will continue to draw the tough assignments playing big minutes vs other teams top lines and carry a huge number of DZone starts.

    That leaves moving Fox. This is viable. But it’s still questionable given the fact that Fox will play more and more minutes in all situations because he’s so competent. He’ll get his share of tough assignments too. Coaches trust him as they should and are clearly comfortable to running him out there basically whenever against basically anyone. Looking like that feeling will only get stronger. But it’s complicated to do that if you don’t trust the guys partner.

    Which brings us back to where we are.
    Pay ADA big money to play on a 3rd pair and run your PP, while having to shelter his minutes, heavily manage his zone starts, and carefully watch the matchups he faces.

    And do you get the most out of ADA long-term if he’s on a bottom pair and you’re limiting his minutes and having to meticulously manage his deployment? Are they willing to do that over the course of a 5 or 6 year deal?

    If you feel his offense is worth the money and management of his ice time, then you do it. Otherwise you don’t and it’s trade or a bridge deal.
    It’s really a matter of opinion. And honestly, there’s really not a wrong answer.
    All options have their merits, demerits, and risks.
    The organization being unwilling to move guys to their offside is a factor.
    How ADA and his camp are in any negotiations and what they’re asking for are factors.
    Development of guys in pipeline is a factor.


    This could go anyway.
    Its interesting to see how both sides see him. Is he the next Karlsson or the next Shattenkirk?

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