[friedman] Rangers Are Thinking "More and More" About Keeping Kreider

I do agree that he’s hard to replace in a way

 

But paying him big money for several seasons as a diminished player when he gets into his mid-30’s is a very likely occurrence.

I don’t think they can risk that.

last 100 teams that won the cup didn't have Kreider on their roster. He's replaceable

even 5 is too long IMO. I don't want him here even in 4 years

It probably is

But I’m saying 5 as the absolute highest number you can live with.

If he signed a 5 year deal, you’d get his age 29/30 through age 33/34 seasons, covering 20/21 through 24/25

Probably by 23/24, age 32/33 is when you’d see the real decline. At that point he’s be in year 4.

So 1-2 seasons of paying him above his production.

That’s normal on most FA/extension deals for players his age.

You live with that

You can’t live with more than that

Kreider is my favorite player, seems to be a good leader, and adds a lot of value on the ice. If the NHL didn’t have a cap he would be a no brainer to keep around. All that said, there is no way the Rangers can extend him out for 4, 5, 6, or 7 years. He will be tough to replace in the short term, but when the team is ready to really compete in a few years we can go out and add a younger version if there is a need. It would have been nice to keep Hayes, Zuc, etc also.

When the team is doing better than expected and individual players are on a hot streak is the most difficult time to avoid making a long term commitment that hurts you down the road.

I do agree that he’s hard to replace in a way

 

But paying him big money for several seasons as a diminished player when he gets into his mid-30’s is a very likely occurrence.

I don’t think they can risk that.

People said the same thing about TJ Oshie.

I'm just wondering at what point we stop trading valuable players for picks. Right? If We trade Kreider, we're worse. Yeah, we have a pick but who the hell knows what that'll become. Then you have Zibanejad. Is he gonna be traded too before he's 30? Having players older than 30 isn't a bad thing. Look at the teams that actually win the cup. They've all been around the block. Blues, Caps, Pens, Bruins. At some point you need to stop tearing down and build up.

People said the same thing about TJ Oshie.

 

I'm just wondering at what point we stop trading valuable players for picks. Right? If We trade Kreider, we're worse. Yeah, we have a pick but who the hell knows what that'll become. Then you have Zibanejad. Is he gonna be traded too before he's 30? Having players older than 30 isn't a bad thing. Look at the teams that actually win the cup. They've all been around the block. Blues, Caps, Pens, Bruins. At some point you need to stop tearing down and build up.

This defense is still 2 - 3 seasons away. They struggled against a last placed Devils team last night.

I do agree that he’s hard to replace in a way

 

But paying him big money for several seasons as a diminished player when he gets into his mid-30’s is a very likely occurrence.

I don’t think they can risk that.

Kreider keeps in better shape than anyone on the team, maybe the league. Yes, he will eventually slow down but I'd argue there's more to his game than just that. Strong on the puck. Strong in front of the net. He goes to the dirty areas without pause. Rangers would struggle without him

Kreider is my favorite player, seems to be a good leader, and adds a lot of value on the ice. If the NHL didn’t have a cap he would be a no brainer to keep around. All that said, there is no way the Rangers can extend him out for 4, 5, 6, or 7 years. He will be tough to replace in the short term, but when the team is ready to really compete in a few years we can go out and add a younger version if there is a need. It would have been nice to keep Hayes, Zuc, etc also.

 

When the team is doing better than expected and individual players are on a hot streak is the most difficult time to avoid making a long term commitment that hurts you down the road.

This is more what I'm getting at, 3-1. It's not the "right now" that I'm looking at with CK, it's the 3 years down the pike...and then some.

He's been really hot of late and thank god. We can backfill a Kreider eventually...we may even obtain a younger version of him through a trade. But these kids are all in their early 20's and some in their teens. Kreider's speed is his biggest value. It will diminish, unfortunately.

I'm also not a big advocate of how plays in front of the net. I showed RJ last night the same thing; His timing and positioning are pretty bad. He hardly ever get a stick on a deflection, and his timing to get in front of shots is pretty poor. The goalies always see right past him. You never see them trying to look around him.

I hear your point loud and clear, and I'm as cautious as you are to think that the second we trade this guy, he's gonna go off for 50! :rofl:

This defense is still 2 - 3 seasons away. They struggled against a last placed Devils team last night.

2 - 3 seasons away from what? No kidding the D needs work, but at what point do we stop creating holes in the foundation and start building a house?

2 - 3 seasons away from what? No kidding the D needs work, but at what point do we stop creating holes in the foundation and start building a house?

There's only so many builders that can fit in the house.

There's only so many builders that can fit in the house.

Great. I'd love to know who's replacing Kreider then.

Kreider is my favorite player, seems to be a good leader, and adds a lot of value on the ice. If the NHL didn’t have a cap he would be a no brainer to keep around. All that said, there is no way the Rangers can extend him out for 4, 5, 6, or 7 years. He will be tough to replace in the short term, but when the team is ready to really compete in a few years we can go out and add a younger version if there is a need. It would have been nice to keep Hayes, Zuc, etc also.

 

When the team is doing better than expected and individual players are on a hot streak is the most difficult time to avoid making a long term commitment that hurts you down the road.

as I see it as well

Great. I'd love to know who's replacing Kreider then.

you saying he's irreplaceable? you think it would be hard to duplicate his 27-29 goals a season?

his replacement does not have to come this season. it could be next or the season after. this team is not competing for the cup in at least 5 years, and most likely even longer than that.

2 - 3 seasons away from what? No kidding the D needs work, but at what point do we stop creating holes in the foundation and start building a house?

I think that depends on what you consider the right foundation. Whether Kreider is part of the right foundation I don't know. I'd like to think good defense is the most important part of a team's foundation.

1) Defense

2) 2-3 high end franchise players to build around

3) Goaltending

Then build the house around it. A good argument could be made that Kreider is part of the house and not the foundation. I think we have 2 and 3 figured out. 1 is a work in progress which is what josh alluded to.

Great. I'd love to know who's replacing Kreider then.

With that cap savings, the possibilities are endless.

Agree with not keeping him. If he?s seriously willing to take a big discount, they should certainly consider it, but I still that the money is better spent on other players.

 

Probably better to just find a good deal and move on

 

Also, I think it would be foolish on Kreider?s behalf to take a discount and not go to market this summer. He?d be leaving so much on the table.

OK. Let him go.

Who are you signing on the list below to replace his production?

https://www.capfriendly.com/browse/free-agents/2021/caphit/all/forwards

last 100 teams that won the cup didn't have Kreider on their roster. He's replaceable

OK. By that logic, the last 100 teams that one the Cup didn't have Conor McDavid either. Is he replaceable too?

OK. By that logic, the last 100 teams that one the Cup didn't have Conor McDavid either. Is he replaceable too?

yes

OK. Let him go.

 

Who are you signing on the list below to replace his production?

 

https://www.capfriendly.com/browse/free-agents/2021/caphit/all/forwards

You should never look at replacing a specific player.

You need to look at what a player does, and ensure you can find player(s) that can complete these tasks with near equivalent efficiency.

- 2nd line player

- PP Net front Presence

- 25g

~50 points

- Speed

You should never look at replacing a specific player.

You need to look at what a player does, and ensure you can find player(s) that can complete these tasks with near equivalent efficiency.

 

- 2nd line player

- PP Net front Presence

- 25g

~50 points

- Speed

I agree with you regarding not looking to replace a specific player, but my question was who do you replace his production with? Using Phil's proposal earlier in this thread about pursuing a Jordan Eberle type of deal as the benchmark(5.5 million X 5 years) as the maximum, who can you grab on that list fill in what you laid out that Kreider brings?

Anthony Mantha or Sam Rheinhart could be an adequate replacement, but I think they will probably both get more than that on the open market; I certainly don't see either giving the NYR a hometown discount. Kakko could very well likely grow into that role(actually I think he will be much better minus the blazing speed). However, the point is not to have Kakko replace Kreider's production, but rather augment it. For the Rangers to compete up front, they are going to need Panarin & Zibanejad to continue producing at the elite level that they already are, but really develop consistent 40+ production in the remaining 7 of the top 9 forward spots. Why look elsewhere for what you already have if you can keep it in a cost controlled enviornment?

His skill set, 6’3” and 225lbs with elite speed is hard to find.

But as others say, what you’re replacing is his production and the role he plays in terms of what he does on the ice.

Let’s remember though that with that skill set, he still has never cracked 30 goals. He’s never cracked 55 points.

While his speed is elite, his skating is not. There’s a difference between having great speed and being a great skater. Gretzky was an amazing skater, but didn’t have elite level speed.

For all the talk of his net front presence, he doesn’t have great hands around the net. They’re good. Not great.

He doesn’t possess a great shot either. He’s about above average to good in that department.

Also has had some injuries and we all know about his streakiness and disappearing for 20+ games annually.

His greatest assets, the speed and strength, that will diminish as he gets into that 32-33 years old range in all likelihood.

While it’s a fair point to say that at some point they need to focus more on guys that are right now help and really try to keep guys that are part of that plan around, there are other guys who fall into that group named Strome, ADA, and maybe Fast, who qualify more for them.

They’re better with Kreider than without him. But there are other implications that result out of keeping him that probably have a bigger impact in a negative way than keeping him has in a positive way.

I agree with you regarding not looking to replace a specific player, but my question was who do you replace his production with? Using Phil's proposal earlier in this thread about pursuing a Jordan Eberle type of deal as the benchmark(5.5 million X 5 years) as the maximum, who can you grab on that list fill in what you laid out that Kreider brings?

 

Anthony Mantha or Sam Rheinhart could be an adequate replacement, but I think they will probably both get more than that on the open market; I certainly don't see either giving the NYR a hometown discount. Kakko could very well likely grow into that role(actually I think he will be much better minus the blazing speed). However, the point is not to have Kakko replace Kreider's production, but rather augment it. For the Rangers to compete up front, they are going to need Panarin & Zibanejad to continue producing at the elite level that they already are, but really develop consistent 40+ production in the remaining 7 of the top 9 forward spots. Why look elsewhere for what you already have if you can keep it in a cost controlled enviornment?

The question for me is not how you replace his production. How much and for how long do you pay for that production knowing it will diminish with age? If you pay him now how difficult will it be for you to pay other younger players in their prime down the road?

We got plenty of top 6 forward options in the future. Why pay a guy now and have his skills diminishing in 3 or 4 years when we are hopefully real contenders? Kreider skill set is not that special that we couldn?t find it on the market in a few years.

I agree with you regarding not looking to replace a specific player, but my question was who do you replace his production with? Using Phil's proposal earlier in this thread about pursuing a Jordan Eberle type of deal as the benchmark(5.5 million X 5 years) as the maximum, who can you grab on that list fill in what you laid out that Kreider brings?

 

Anthony Mantha or Sam Rheinhart could be an adequate replacement, but I think they will probably both get more than that on the open market; I certainly don't see either giving the NYR a hometown discount. Kakko could very well likely grow into that role(actually I think he will be much better minus the blazing speed). However, the point is not to have Kakko replace Kreider's production, but rather augment it. For the Rangers to compete up front, they are going to need Panarin & Zibanejad to continue producing at the elite level that they already are, but really develop consistent 40+ production in the remaining 7 of the top 9 forward spots. Why look elsewhere for what you already have if you can keep it in a cost controlled enviornment?

Kreider won’t be “cost controlled”

He’d just be expensive

How much longer do you see him having "elite" speed? Maybe 3 years max?

Also, he plays slow.

How much longer do you see him having "elite" speed? Maybe 3 years max?

 

Also, he plays slow.

I wouldn’t even say he has it now. He barely ever burns people. The play yesterday was a set play. Zibs, Cheats seem just as fast.

Same with his size and strength. He’s not physical. When he uses his size it’s on the PP, and we’ve seen young Lemieux do well, and even Howden had a great screen yesterday and always makes good plays around the net.

Kreider is still a good player, but the things that made him special are no longer dominant traits in his game.

How much longer do you see him having "elite" speed? Maybe 3 years max?

 

Also, he plays slow.

I think the decline becomes significant and noticeable by age 32/33.