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Thread: Let's Talk About Socialism

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by G1000 View Post
    Who said anything about unions or the IRS? Like, where'd that come from?

    And yes, when it comes to the reality that there are many, many families choosing between "eat" and "get healthcare" in the richest country in the world because the costs of healthcare are completely out of control, privatization has indeed failed. If you want to call it mortally flawed, but not yet failed, sure.

    And yes, I'd rather hand it over to bureaucrats than oligarchs. One can be legislated out.
    Pete said the irs was run well

    a large portion of the population is happy with their insurance. Myself included. It is to expensive and an alternative needs to be figured out for those in need Scrapping it all to do that is insane though. The same candidates that want socialism want to give it to undocumented people here and want open borders. What could possibly go wrong? Please argue that logic. I think logic is the wrong word.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Niko View Post
    Pete, in one of the other threads, you said “you have more faith in people than I do”, and here, you seemingly contradict that.

    You want to know why socialism won’t work in the US? Look at the number of children born out of wedlock, the number of single parents in the US, the level of obesity, the drop out rate (which admittedly is getting better) etc. You can’t trust 1/2 of this country to make sound, rational decisions for themselves and their own/their families well being, but you expect them to get it together when the other half of the country is paying their way?

    https://datacenter.kidscount.org/dat...9,12,1,185,13/

    https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...frican-americ/

    https://www.cdc.gov/obesity/data/adult.html

    https://www.dosomething.org/us/facts...-dropout-rates

    And who’s going to oversee it all? The American government, who can’t manage a check book, can’t run anything properly for veterans, can give you even remotely decent service in any branch of service they provide, which will be budgeted by corrupt politicians? C’mon man.

    You’re a parent in a high tax area, trying to support your family, as am I. Why do you think making YOUR families life more difficult by socialism is the answer? My main concerns are getting people healthcare and making sure children and the elderly are taken care of. Everyone else can fuck off. I’m not paying a 70% tax rate to support those who consciously make shitty decisions in their life.
    All of those things - literally, all of them - are linked to socioeconomic factors driven by poor support systems.

    Also, you're nowhere near rich enough to pay the 70% tax rate. You're more Jeff Foxworthy than Jeff Bezos.
    Last edited by G1000; 12-05-2019 at 09:30 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fatfrancesa View Post
    Pete said the irs was run well

    a large portion of the population is happy with their insurance. Myself included. It is to expensive and an alternative needs to be figured out for those in need Scrapping it all to do that is insane though. The same candidates that want socialism want to give it to undocumented people here and want open borders. What could possibly go wrong? Please argue that logic. I think logic is the wrong word.
    I'm never sure what your point is because it's so all over the place and you jump between issues.

    You like your insurance? Bullshit. You like your doctor, and you like the fact that you can see her for $20 whenever you get sick because you've front-paid 10% of your pay for the insurance premium.

    The system is too expensive and an alternative needs to be worked out? Yep. Spot on. It's expensive because it's profit driven, not service driven. Publicizing the system would fix that pretty quickly.

    Undocumented people and open borders aren't relevant to the discussion.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Niko View Post
    Pete, in one of the other threads, you said ďyou have more faith in people than I doĒ, and here, you seemingly contradict that.

    You want to know why socialism wonít work in the US? Look at the number of children born out of wedlock, the number of single parents in the US, the level of obesity, the drop out rate (which admittedly is getting better) etc. You canít trust 1/2 of this country to make sound, rational decisions for themselves and their own/their families well being, but you expect them to get it together when the other half of the country is paying their way?

    https://datacenter.kidscount.org/dat...9,12,1,185,13/

    https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...frican-americ/

    https://www.cdc.gov/obesity/data/adult.html

    https://www.dosomething.org/us/facts...-dropout-rates

    And whoís going to oversee it all? The American government, who canít manage a check book, canít run anything properly for veterans, can give you even remotely decent service in any branch of service they provide, which will be budgeted by corrupt politicians? Címon man.

    Youíre a parent in a high tax area, trying to support your family, as am I. Why do you think making YOUR families life more difficult by socialism is the answer? My main concerns are getting people healthcare and making sure children and the elderly are taken care of. Everyone else can fuck off. Iím not paying a 70% tax rate to support those who consciously make shitty decisions in their life.
    We simply don't agree.

    I'm also not a socialist, and neither are Bernie or Warren. I'm just tired of arguing against a scare tactic. It's just a cheap trick. I believe the government and social programs should work for the majority of people and the current systems don't.

    By the way, this post basically says "I'm not going to pay more because minorities are irresponsible". That's kinda racist.

    That said, my post said I trust people to pull their own weight when they're on a level playing field. Level the playing field.
    Last edited by Pete; 12-05-2019 at 10:20 PM.

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    You start leveling the playing field and donate any earnings over the average annual earnings. Be sure to account for those that have no annual income, as well.
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    Pete, you have this idea of this horrible ceo that says rich and has slaves and works in a big building and abuses workers. Lives in a fancy house, drives nice cars, has nice things, Etc etc.
    To 50% of the people in the country, you are the same guy.
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    Quote Originally Posted by josh View Post
    Pete, you have this idea of this horrible ceo that says rich and has slaves and works in a big building and abuses workers. Lives in a fancy house, drives nice cars, has nice things, Etc etc.
    To 50% of the people in the country, you are the same guy.
    Posts about me don't contribute to the discussion.

    Keep it about the issues.

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    You know the discussion is over when you’re called a racist. Facts and logic win so “racist” comes out

    By the way open borders and providing healthcare to undocumented should concern anyone pushing for universal healthcare. How is that sustainable. I would think you would want the new system to have a chance at working.

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    Quote Originally Posted by josh View Post
    Pete, you have this idea of this horrible ceo that says rich and has slaves and works in a big building and abuses workers. Lives in a fancy house, drives nice cars, has nice things, Etc etc.
    To 50% of the people in the country, you are the same guy.
    I don't think that's quite it.

    I'd probably start here:



    This is a double-pie chart juxtaposing tax revenue against general expenditures. It's of note that this is the largest budget deficit in recent history. We've literally never been this bad in the past.

    It's worth understanding this, because it's fundamental to the debate we're having. I'll note that I wholly reject the libertarian angle of privatizing everything and doing away with taxes; it's about as realistic as a ten dicked unicorn. Death and Taxes are certainties, so the libertarian low-tax/no-tax fantasyland isn't really a thing I find meaningful to engage in.

    From my perspective:

    1 - How are we spending over a trillion dollars on Health and Human Services? I'd imagine much of that is Medicaid/Medicare.
    2 - How is our tax revenue from income taxes less than 5% GDP? Further, why is the corporate tax literally 1/9 of the income tax?
    3 - Why is a trillion dollars of spending going into Social Security? If we're at record employment, we should be at record contribution.

    What someone like me, or like Pete, might say is more along the lines of

    1 - "This isn't really well spent. Where it is well spent, it's at the mercy of profit driven forces that perhaps shouldn't be a part of this process."
    2 - "Income and Payroll taxes cannot possibly be such outsized drivers of a good tax policy that allows for us to intelligently reinvest these funds. Where is the corporate contribution? Where's the investment contribution?"
    3 - Honestly, this one is weird. It might just be a line item quirk (we collected x and put it in SS), but I'm honestly shocked it wasn't defense.

    It's really a question of "is this the best way to spend this money?" and if so, "how do we maximize the ROI so as many people as possible can get the benefits of their tax dollars?" So when we see this outsized chunk of taxes coming from income and payroll, and we see that Healthcare is such a massive chunk of our government spending while simultaneously being the leading cause of bankruptcy among Americans....something doesn't really add up on both the fiscal and moral compasses here.
    Last edited by G1000; 12-05-2019 at 11:18 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fatfrancesa View Post
    You know the discussion is over when you’re called a racist. Facts and logic win so “racist” comes out

    By the way open borders and providing healthcare to undocumented should concern anyone pushing for universal healthcare. How is that sustainable. I would think you would want the new system to have a chance at working.
    It would if it were in any way a significant thing. It's not.

    The CBO and the IRS estimate that somewhere between 50 and 75% of illegal/undocumented immigrants pay taxes. Seeing as a massive chunk of that group are children, that's probably right in line with average Americans.

    Buncha people looking for a better life pay taxes to a country that routinely raids their communities to send them home and are only here because they want a better life? Yeah, sorry, not at all giving a shit about that "illegals don't contribute" talking point.
    Last edited by G1000; 12-05-2019 at 11:19 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    We simply don't agree.

    I'm also not a socialist, and neither are Bernie or Warren. I'm just tired of arguing against a scare tactic. It's just a cheap trick. I believe the government and social programs should work for the majority of people and the current systems don't.

    By the way, this post basically says "I'm not going to pay more because minorities are irresponsible". That's kinda racist.

    That said, my post said I trust people to pull their own weight when they're on a level playing field. Level the playing field.
    I get what you’re saying.

    However, I disagree that it’s racist. It’s data. How can numbers be racist?

    My argument was derivative of Ben Shapiro always saying that “if you complete high school and don’t have children out of wedlock as a teenager, the probability of you advancing further economically over the position you were born is greatly improved”, or something to that affect. But I wouldn’t post Ben Shapiro as a direct link here, so I pulled the data myself. FTR, I don’t usually agree with Ben Shapiro (our stances differ greatly on gun control, pro choice v pro life, net neutrality, etc.) but I believe he’s correct in his opinion here.

    But data is data. How can it be good for hockey analytics but racist for this point? Numbers are numbers.

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    Also, my point in terms of obesity and the drop out rate is to speak on free will and the poor decisions people make when the consequences are fairly obvious/well known/we documented. If you’re overweight and eat poorly, you will have health problems. Public education is free and it’s importance is stressed everywhere, from an early age, but people still drop out. People knowingly making bad decisions is on them. It’s like smokers. If you choose to smoke knowing thing consequences of smoking, I can feel bad for you, but I shouldn’t have to deal with the consequences of your actions. YOU made that decision, not me. That seems like a YOU problem. Not you as in Pete, but you get what I mean, lol.

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    Quote Originally Posted by G1000 View Post
    I don't think that's quite it.

    I'd probably start here:



    This is a double-pie chart juxtaposing tax revenue against general expenditures. It's of note that this is the largest budget deficit in recent history. We've literally never been this bad in the past.

    It's worth understanding this, because it's fundamental to the debate we're having. I'll note that I wholly reject the libertarian angle of privatizing everything and doing away with taxes; it's about as realistic as a ten dicked unicorn. Death and Taxes are certainties, so the libertarian low-tax/no-tax fantasyland isn't really a thing I find meaningful to engage in.

    From my perspective:

    1 - How are we spending over a trillion dollars on Health and Human Services? I'd imagine much of that is Medicaid/Medicare.
    2 - How is our tax revenue from income taxes less than 5% GDP? Further, why is the corporate tax literally 1/9 of the income tax?
    3 - Why is a trillion dollars of spending going into Social Security? If we're at record employment, we should be at record contribution.

    What someone like me, or like Pete, might say is more along the lines of

    1 - "This isn't really well spent. Where it is well spent, it's at the mercy of profit driven forces that perhaps shouldn't be a part of this process."
    2 - "Income and Payroll taxes cannot possibly be such outsized drivers of a good tax policy that allows for us to intelligently reinvest these funds. Where is the corporate contribution? Where's the investment contribution?"
    3 - Honestly, this one is weird. It might just be a line item quirk (we collected x and put it in SS), but I'm honestly shocked it wasn't defense.

    It's really a question of "is this the best way to spend this money?" and if so, "how do we maximize the ROI so as many people as possible can get the benefits of their tax dollars?" So when we see this outsized chunk of taxes coming from income and payroll, and we see that Healthcare is such a massive chunk of our government spending while simultaneously being the leading cause of bankruptcy among Americans....something doesn't really add up on both the fiscal and moral compasses here.
    I agree with most of it, but I believe these issues are a result of being... too “socialist” of a government.

    Business wise, I think the issues arise from too many regulations - causing more money to be spent on BS instead of going to the workers. Even healthcare, pay the hospital/office, not the insurance company.
    The CEOs are making more because they are bigger assholes. They make more because they are bigger targets.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Niko View Post
    I get what you’re saying.

    However, I disagree that it’s racist. It’s data. How can numbers be racist?

    My argument was derivative of Ben Shapiro always saying that “if you complete high school and don’t have children out of wedlock as a teenager, the probability of you advancing further economically over the position you were born is greatly improved”, or something to that affect. But I wouldn’t post Ben Shapiro as a direct link here, so I pulled the data myself. FTR, I don’t usually agree with Ben Shapiro (our stances differ greatly on gun control, pro choice v pro life, net neutrality, etc.) but I believe he’s correct in his opinion here.

    But data is data. How can it be good for hockey analytics but racist for this point? Numbers are numbers.
    Data can absolutely be racist. This data, not so much, but especially with something like polling, it's really easy to bias your sample, lets say.

    The undertone of your post is unintentional but noteworthy:

    1 - Children out of wedlock is a really bad metric for "sound, rational decisions". Marriage isn't the dividing line for rationality, and frankly, marriage in and of itself is on the decline. Age might be a better way to measure this - teenage pregnancy perhaps? - but those data are STRONGLY correlated to both economic status (specifically access to healthcare, actually), quality of education, and, yes, race. Straight on ditto for "single parents".

    2 - Obesity is a weird one. There's an inverse correlation between the cost of food and the healthiness of it - that is, you can eat cheaper if you eat unhealthy. It's not quite apples to apples (sorry) though; there's probably an education element to this as well. It sorta kinda falls in to the same points above.

    Then there's people like me, who hate exercising and like cake and don't really make good food decisions. Yell at me all you want - I'm your guilty party here. Just bring me a pork bun if you do.

    It's interesting, because your post basically says "man, we've got all these problems that could be fixed by investing tax dollars in government institutions like our schools and our health services but I don't really trust them to do good with that money". There's a choice - is the chance of that good outcome worth the risk that nothing changes?
    Last edited by G1000; 12-05-2019 at 11:41 PM.
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    Its pretty racist to think only minorities are single parents, obese, and with high drop out rates.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Albatross View Post
    Its pretty racist to think only minorities are single parents, obese, and with high drop out rates.
    I Immediately thought of white trailer trash, honestly. Huge burden on society.
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    Quote Originally Posted by josh View Post
    I agree with most of it, but I believe these issues are a result of being... too “socialist” of a government.

    Business wise, I think the issues arise from too many regulations - causing more money to be spent on BS instead of going to the workers. Even healthcare, pay the hospital/office, not the insurance company.
    The CEOs are making more because they are bigger assholes. They make more because they are bigger targets.
    I wish I could agree, but over the last 40 years or so, that stance has been proven wrong - or at least seriously damaged. Tax reductions, deregulation, and all of that stuff hasn't led to higher wages for workers, hasn't led to better healthcare, hasn't led to the removal of the middleman. It's led to higher CEO salaries, greater wage disparity, higher costs (because we all need to show that year over year growth), etc.

    I think that would be true if corporations were altruistic. That feels cynical to me.

    Unfettered capitalism wasn't designed for today's businesses, but today's businesses are absolutely designed to get as close to unfettered capitalism as possible. That's not a good thing for most employees.
    Last edited by G1000; 12-05-2019 at 11:42 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by josh View Post
    I Immediately thought of white trailer trash, honestly. Huge burden on society.
    I kinda went to the "people of walmart" paradigm tbqh.
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    Quote Originally Posted by G1000 View Post
    I wish I could agree, but over the last 40 years or so, that stance has been proven wrong. Tax reductions, deregulation, and all of that stuff hasn't led to higher wages for workers, hasn't led to better healthcare, hasn't led to the removal of the middleman. It's led to higher CEO salaries, greater wage disparity, higher costs (because we all need to show that year over year growth), etc.

    Unfettered capitalism wasn't designed for today's businesses, but today's businesses are absolutely designed to get as close to unfettered capitalism as possible. That's not a good thing for most employees.
    I’m more comfortable with capitalism because that asshole ceo will eventually be replaced, removed, etc. I can’t say that about a government, which has more power, more reach, and no regulation.
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    Quote Originally Posted by josh View Post
    I’m more comfortable with capitalism because that asshole ceo will eventually be replaced, removed, etc. I can’t say that about a government, which has more power, more reach, and no regulation.
    I mean, we get a chance to remove the asshole CEO of the government every four years, don't we?
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