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Thread: Let's Talk About Socialism

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    Let's Talk About Socialism

    Why is socialism such a non starter? Because the government has proven at every turn to have no ability to run anything efficiently or even well Ask the veterans how their healthcare is. How’s social security looking? How about those shovel ready stimulus jobs? Post office, trains. Anything. Name something they run well? Elections? Haha. When you prove yourself to be so incompetent at best totally corrupt at worst. Reasonable people should give pause before handing them more money and power. I do notice that all these politicians are somehow enriched by serving as our representatives. Is it possible they use their power for their benefit not the people they represent? They voted to exempt themselves from Obamacare. Socialism in theory is great, it has failed everywhere because of the human element in power. Proven forever yet it’s a wonder why some see it as a non starter? Seriously?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fatfrancesa View Post
    Why is socialism such a non starter? Because the government has proven at every turn to have no ability to run anything efficiently or even well Ask the veterans how their healthcare is. Howís social security looking? How about those shovel ready stimulus jobs? Post office, trains. Anything. Name something they run well? Elections? Haha. When you prove yourself to be so incompetent at best totally corrupt at worst. Reasonable people should give pause before handing them more money and power. I do notice that all these politicians are somehow enriched by serving as our representatives. Is it possible they use their power for their benefit not the people they represent? They voted to exempt themselves from Obamacare. Socialism in theory is great, it has failed everywhere because of the human element in power. Proven forever yet itís a wonder why some see it as a non starter? Seriously?
    Yes you're right. We should totally trust privatized services like any healthcare or pharma. Sounds like a solid plan.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    Yes you're right. We should totally trust privatized services like any healthcare or pharma. Sounds like a solid plan.
    Did I say that? How about responding to what I said or just don’t respond? The government runs nothing well. The people in control have all enriched themselves while running every program like shit. That is my points. Nothing about private anything. Can you give an example of a well run government program?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fatfrancesa View Post
    Did I say that? How about responding to what I said or just donít respond? The government runs nothing well. The people in control have all enriched themselves while running every program like shit. That is my points. Nothing about private anything. Can you give an example of a well run government program?
    Yes, you did say that.

    Can you give an example of a well run privatized for profit healthcare company?

    Greed is greed.

    The government doesn't do anything well, so don't let the government do anything is inherently flawed logic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fatfrancesa View Post
    Did I say that? How about responding to what I said or just don’t respond? The government runs nothing well. The people in control have all enriched themselves while running every program like shit. That is my points. Nothing about private anything. Can you give an example of a well run government program?
    I mean, if it's not public, it's private, isn't it? Is there a third way?

    Privatized has failed. It's basically done EXACTLY what you assert public will.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    Yes, you did say that.

    Can you give an example of a well run privatized for profit healthcare company?

    Greed is greed.

    The government doesn't do anything well, so don't let the government do anything is inherently flawed logic.

    Said nothing about private healthcare. Typical. Can’t answer a simple question so deflect. Also said nothing about government doing nothing. My point is I don’t want government doing more, with socialism they would be doing it all.

    So again, before handing over even more power to government, can you please name a well run govetnment program?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fatfrancesa View Post
    Said nothing about private healthcare. Typical. Canít answer a simple question so deflect. Also said nothing about government doing nothing. My point is I donít want government doing more, with socialism they would be doing it all.

    So again, before handing over even more power to government, can you please name a well run govetnment program?
    The IRS.

    I mean, if it's not public, it's private, isn't it? Is there a third way?

    Privatized has failed. It's basically done EXACTLY what you assert public will.

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    Quote Originally Posted by G1000 View Post
    I mean, if it's not public, it's private, isn't it? Is there a third way?

    Privatized has failed. It's basically done EXACTLY what you assert public will.
    Privatized has failed? Too expensive is not failed. Improvements can be made no doubt. That doesn’t mean you just scrap it and hand it over to bureaucrats. Are we living in some third world country? Tell the unions of state employees they no longer get their health insurance. You’re talking in absolutes. Is there s third way? Of course there is. Reform what needs to be fixed don’t scrap the entire system.

    The irs is run well? There are millions right now cheating on their taxes. The President is accused of doing just that. Billion dollar corporations pay nothing through loop holes. The only people who pay full boat are those who can’t afford not to. No average American can understand the tax code. The tax code is exhibit a in what the bureaucrats do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by G1000 View Post
    I mean, if it's not public, it's private, isn't it? Is there a third way?

    Privatized has failed. It's basically done EXACTLY what you assert public will.
    There is, but you're not going to like it.

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    I dont trust anyone. Socialism requires me to have complete trust and faith in everyone, and that they will pull their own weight. lol. yeah right.
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    I'd trust people to pull their weight on a level playing field.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    I'd trust people to pull their weight on a level playing field.
    This thread can really hard stop here. This is where the fundamental disagreement lies. Those against socialism do not trust the people under the system as well as those running the show, and those for socialism do. Plain and simple. We can talk about the policies and how they would get implemented until we are all blue in the face, but it won't change that simple fact.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rmc51 View Post
    This thread can really hard stop here. This is where the fundamental disagreement lies. Those against socialism do not trust the people under the system as well as those running the show, and those for socialism do. Plain and simple. We can talk about the policies and how they would get implemented until we are all blue in the face, but it won't change that simple fact.
    Agreed. I’m Sure they would trust a candidate they didn’t like to run the government they are opining for. Could you imagine trump with more power? Or is it socialism once implemented the right is dead?

    So yes your right I don’t trust that people can do the right thing. I don’t even trust this thread in its anything but a power grab to destroy their political enemies. Can anyone possibly believe they can eliminate the human element of corruption? The government now is corrupt. Our spy agencies and career bureaucrats are openly contesting our elected officials. The answer is to add more unelected bureaucracy? Are you kidding me? This is a hard stop.

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    It’s not like anyone has ever been accused of abusing their power. Why not give them unlimited power. I trust them

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    Quote Originally Posted by NY Chief View Post
    Per the wiki definition of corruption.... "Political corruption occurs when an office-holder or other governmental employee acts in an official capacity for personal gain."
    Would never happen.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fatfrancesa View Post
    Privatized has failed? Too expensive is not failed. Improvements can be made no doubt. That doesn’t mean you just scrap it and hand it over to bureaucrats. Are we living in some third world country? Tell the unions of state employees they no longer get their health insurance. You’re talking in absolutes. Is there s third way? Of course there is. Reform what needs to be fixed don’t scrap the entire system.

    The irs is run well? There are millions right now cheating on their taxes. The President is accused of doing just that. Billion dollar corporations pay nothing through loop holes. The only people who pay full boat are those who can’t afford not to. No average American can understand the tax code. The tax code is exhibit a in what the bureaucrats do.
    Who said anything about unions or the IRS? Like, where'd that come from?

    And yes, when it comes to the reality that there are many, many families choosing between "eat" and "get healthcare" in the richest country in the world because the costs of healthcare are completely out of control, privatization has indeed failed. If you want to call it mortally flawed, but not yet failed, sure.

    And yes, I'd rather hand it over to bureaucrats than oligarchs. One can be legislated out.
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    Quote Originally Posted by rmc51 View Post
    This thread can really hard stop here. This is where the fundamental disagreement lies. Those against socialism do not trust the people under the system as well as those running the show, and those for socialism do. Plain and simple. We can talk about the policies and how they would get implemented until we are all blue in the face, but it won't change that simple fact.
    Hobbes v Locke. Nearly 400+ years later, they're still arguing.

    Surely we'll come to an answer soon.
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    Pete, in one of the other threads, you said “you have more faith in people than I do”, and here, you seemingly contradict that.

    You want to know why socialism won’t work in the US? Look at the number of children born out of wedlock, the number of single parents in the US, the level of obesity, the drop out rate (which admittedly is getting better) etc. You can’t trust 1/2 of this country to make sound, rational decisions for themselves and their own/their families well being, but you expect them to get it together when the other half of the country is paying their way?

    https://datacenter.kidscount.org/dat...9,12,1,185,13/

    https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...frican-americ/

    https://www.cdc.gov/obesity/data/adult.html

    https://www.dosomething.org/us/facts...-dropout-rates

    And who’s going to oversee it all? The American government, who can’t manage a check book, can’t run anything properly for veterans, can give you even remotely decent service in any branch of service they provide, which will be budgeted by corrupt politicians? C’mon man.

    You’re a parent in a high tax area, trying to support your family, as am I. Why do you think making YOUR families life more difficult by socialism is the answer? My main concerns are getting people healthcare and making sure children and the elderly are taken care of. Everyone else can fuck off. I’m not paying a 70% tax rate to support those who consciously make shitty decisions in their life.

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    Quote Originally Posted by G1000 View Post
    Who said anything about unions or the IRS? Like, where'd that come from?

    And yes, when it comes to the reality that there are many, many families choosing between "eat" and "get healthcare" in the richest country in the world because the costs of healthcare are completely out of control, privatization has indeed failed. If you want to call it mortally flawed, but not yet failed, sure.

    And yes, I'd rather hand it over to bureaucrats than oligarchs. One can be legislated out.
    Pete said the irs was run well

    a large portion of the population is happy with their insurance. Myself included. It is to expensive and an alternative needs to be figured out for those in need Scrapping it all to do that is insane though. The same candidates that want socialism want to give it to undocumented people here and want open borders. What could possibly go wrong? Please argue that logic. I think logic is the wrong word.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Niko View Post
    Pete, in one of the other threads, you said “you have more faith in people than I do”, and here, you seemingly contradict that.

    You want to know why socialism won’t work in the US? Look at the number of children born out of wedlock, the number of single parents in the US, the level of obesity, the drop out rate (which admittedly is getting better) etc. You can’t trust 1/2 of this country to make sound, rational decisions for themselves and their own/their families well being, but you expect them to get it together when the other half of the country is paying their way?

    https://datacenter.kidscount.org/dat...9,12,1,185,13/

    https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...frican-americ/

    https://www.cdc.gov/obesity/data/adult.html

    https://www.dosomething.org/us/facts...-dropout-rates

    And who’s going to oversee it all? The American government, who can’t manage a check book, can’t run anything properly for veterans, can give you even remotely decent service in any branch of service they provide, which will be budgeted by corrupt politicians? C’mon man.

    You’re a parent in a high tax area, trying to support your family, as am I. Why do you think making YOUR families life more difficult by socialism is the answer? My main concerns are getting people healthcare and making sure children and the elderly are taken care of. Everyone else can fuck off. I’m not paying a 70% tax rate to support those who consciously make shitty decisions in their life.
    All of those things - literally, all of them - are linked to socioeconomic factors driven by poor support systems.

    Also, you're nowhere near rich enough to pay the 70% tax rate. You're more Jeff Foxworthy than Jeff Bezos.
    Last edited by G1000; 12-05-2019 at 08:30 PM.
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