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Thread: Let's Talk About Socialism

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by G1000 View Post
    I mean, we get a chance to remove the asshole CEO of the government every four years, don't we?
    Why would you anticipate people following the law under socialism when they don’t now?
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    Quote Originally Posted by josh View Post
    Why would you anticipate people following the law under socialism when they don’t now?
    I'm not entirely sure what you're getting at here, but there will always be people who break the law. How we govern and how we punish feel like two different things to me.
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    To speak just on socialism for a moment, I think the most telling thing is a conversation with a Russian person that lived in the USSR. I played hockey with a bunch of Russian guys, a lot of which were trump fans (which surprised me) and they they spoke about how much they hate Bernie and AOC. And the most common thing said between these older men was “my family came to this country to escape socialism, why would anyone want that here?” and “you don’t know what it’s like until you’ve lived in a socialist country”.

    That plays into the whole “if it’s been a failure in every other venture, what would we do differently, with an even higher population, that would make it work” line of questioning.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Niko View Post
    To speak just on socialism for a moment, I think the most telling thing is a conversation with a Russian person that lived in the USSR. I played hockey with a bunch of Russian guys, a lot of which were trump fans (which surprised me) and they they spoke about how much they hate Bernie and AOC. And the most common thing said between these older men was “my family came to this country to escape socialism, why would anyone want that here?” and “you don’t know what it’s like until you’ve lived in a socialist country”.

    That plays into the whole “if it’s been a failure in every other venture, what would we do differently, with an even higher population, that would make it work” line of questioning.
    Because if you call it democratic socialism it sounds warm and fuzzy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Niko View Post
    To speak just on socialism for a moment, I think the most telling thing is a conversation with a Russian person that lived in the USSR. I played hockey with a bunch of Russian guys, a lot of which were trump fans (which surprised me) and they they spoke about how much they hate Bernie and AOC. And the most common thing said between these older men was “my family came to this country to escape socialism, why would anyone want that here?” and “you don’t know what it’s like until you’ve lived in a socialist country”.

    That plays into the whole “if it’s been a failure in every other venture, what would we do differently, with an even higher population, that would make it work” line of questioning.
    Except it hasn't been a failure in every other venture.

    Plus, Russia is a communist dictatorship.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Niko View Post
    I get what you’re saying.

    However, I disagree that it’s racist. It’s data. How can numbers be racist?

    My argument was derivative of Ben Shapiro always saying that “if you complete high school and don’t have children out of wedlock as a teenager, the probability of you advancing further economically over the position you were born is greatly improved”, or something to that affect. But I wouldn’t post Ben Shapiro as a direct link here, so I pulled the data myself. FTR, I don’t usually agree with Ben Shapiro (our stances differ greatly on gun control, pro choice v pro life, net neutrality, etc.) but I believe he’s correct in his opinion here.

    But data is data. How can it be good for hockey analytics but racist for this point? Numbers are numbers.
    Quote Originally Posted by josh View Post
    I Immediately thought of white trailer trash, honestly. Huge burden on society.
    Quote Originally Posted by G1000 View Post
    I kinda went to the "people of walmart" paradigm tbqh.
    Well if I hadn't opened the links, I'd have thought the same based on the post alone.

    But when you read "people don't make good decisions and I'm not paying for that" and the support links are:

    African Americans having babies out of wedlock
    Single parent families sliced by race
    Obesity stats, mostly sliced by race

    There's a message there that's kind of hard to ignore.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    Well if I hadn't opened the links, I'd have thought the same based on the post alone.

    But when you read "people don't make good decisions and I'm not paying for that" and the support links are:

    African Americans having babies out of wedlock
    Single parent families sliced by race
    Obesity stats, mostly sliced by race

    There's a message there that's kind of hard to ignore.
    I felt that posting it. However, I learned not to post here with out some sort of data.

    Google “obesity in America”, “single parents jn America” and “dropout rate in US” and look at the top hits that contain facts/data and not opinion pieces. You’ll see exactly what I posted.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    Except it hasn't been a failure in every other venture.

    Plus, Russia is a communist dictatorship.
    Where has communism/socialism worked? And if your answer is a country with the population the size of Pennsylvania, I’d immediately discredit it. Bc the US is so large, so diverse that its incomparable.

    What may work in a classroom of 30 students won’t work extrapolated across a school of 3000 when you start factoring in special needs students, ESL students, and a bunch of other variables, IMO.

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    Norway is greatest country on earth. Don’t you know. Their contributions to society through innovation is listed here:





    Also they have strict immigration laws. So good luck trying to move there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Niko View Post
    Where has communism/socialism worked? And if your answer is a country with the population the size of Pennsylvania, I’d immediately discredit it. Bc the US is so large, so diverse that its incomparable.

    What may work in a classroom of 30 students won’t work extrapolated across a school of 3000 when you start factoring in special needs students, ESL students, and a bunch of other variables, IMO.
    There's a lot of nuance in this largely because of the Cold War, so bear with.

    Three schools of thought here:

    1 - Communism
    2 - Socialism
    3 - Democratic Socialism (what you're mostly seeing here)

    Under Communism - think USSR, Vietnam, Cuba - there is one party in the government that controls all the means of production through a planned economy run by the state. No private ownership of anything.

    Under Socialism - Government isn't actually relevant to the theory. It's strictly economic, and it's strictly "society owns the means of production". Critically, not the government. A socialist state, to my knowledge, that isn't Marxist/Communist, has not existed for any meaningful length of time.

    Under Democratic Socialism - think most of 1st world Europe - the government remains democratic. Private ownership remains, but excessive hoarding of wealth is limited. The government exists to provide and enhance the social well-being of its people - and it controls public transit, utilities, need-functions (healthcare).

    So, you ask, where has Socialism worked? Nowhere is in fact the answer, because socialism without democracy eventually becomes oligarchy or communism.

    Where has Democratic Socialism worked? Damn near everywhere it's been implemented. France, Germany, and even India have enacted Democratic Socialist programs and policies that have been wildly successful.
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  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fatfrancesa View Post
    Norway is greatest country on earth. Don’t you know. Their contributions to society through innovation is listed here:





    Also they have strict immigration laws. So good luck trying to move there.
    Routinely ranked one of the happiest countries on earth, wildly productive, incredibly safe, phenomenal standard of living, very low poverty, very little corruption, probably freer than the USA. Did you have a point to make here?
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  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Niko View Post
    I felt that posting it. However, I learned not to post here with out some sort of data.

    Google “obesity in America”, “single parents jn America” and “dropout rate in US” and look at the top hits that contain facts/data and not opinion pieces. You’ll see exactly what I posted.
    I did this just because you asked me to. These were the hits I got with stats:
    “obesity in America”: https://www.publichealth.org/public-awareness/obesity/
    “single parents jn America”: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_parent
    “dropout rate in US”: Same as yours

    You know Google personalizes your search results, right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Niko View Post
    Where has communism/socialism worked? And if your answer is a country with the population the size of Pennsylvania, I’d immediately discredit it. Bc the US is so large, so diverse that its incomparable.

    What may work in a classroom of 30 students won’t work extrapolated across a school of 3000 when you start factoring in special needs students, ESL students, and a bunch of other variables, IMO.
    Why are we continuing to creep the scope here? It went from talking about universal healthcare, to some socialized programs, to socialism to communism. There's no reason to even discuss the latter 2, here.

    I will be happy to discuss the benefits and drawbacks of the candidates' plans. If you want to continue to label things what they're not, then I'm not participating in that. Then I find myself arguing with you just to argue, and I don't want to do that.

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fatfrancesa View Post
    Because if you call it democratic socialism it sounds warm and fuzzy.
    This post does nothing to add to the conversation and kills the momentum being made in an otherwise civil exchange. I'm leaving it up to serve as a shining example of what NOT to do in these political topics.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    I did this just because you asked me to. These were the hits I got with stats:
    “obesity in America”: https://www.publichealth.org/public-awareness/obesity/
    “single parents jn America”: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_parent
    “dropout rate in US”: Same as yours

    You know Google personalizes your search results, right?



    Why are we continuing to creep the scope here? It went from talking about universal healthcare, to some socialized programs, to socialism to communism. There's no reason to even discuss the latter 2, here.

    I will be happy to discuss the benefits and drawbacks of the candidates' plans. If you want to continue to label things what they're not, then I'm not participating in that. Then I find myself arguing with you just to argue, and I don't want to do that.

    I don’t really care for the insinuation there, Pedro. It’s uncalled for.

    Secondly; you’re in the “let’s talk about socialism thread” not the democratic candidates thread, so the talking point is valid.

    I agree with you in that we won’t agree. And that’s ok. I think that we both can agree though that the idea of socialism will make or break the next election. I personally understand the necessity for some socialized programs (SS, some form of universal healthcare), but I don’t see it would expand further successfully more so than those programs in the US.

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    We may not all agree but we should clarify the facts here. Rhom's post (#52) is, IMO, critical reading for participating in this thread.

    "Socialism" is a dirty political word. What it actaully means matters. A lot. Which is why Democratic Socialists use the term properly, and why it's not just a way of "softening" the impact. It fundamnetally changes the manner in which it operates.

    Much like how Sodium (Na) would kill you if you ingested it, but Sodium Chloride (NaCl) is simple table salt. The "Democratic" component is not just window dressing. It's directive. It wholly controls the outcome.
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  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Niko View Post
    I don’t really care for the insinuation there, Pedro. It’s uncalled for.
    I'm replying to what you're posting. I don't think you're a racist but I don't know why you're posting things that might make one think otherwise.

    Secondly; you’re in the “let’s talk about socialism thread” not the democratic candidates thread, so the talking point is valid.

    I agree with you in that we won’t agree. And that’s ok. I think that we both can agree though that the idea of socialism will make or break the next election. I personally understand the necessity for some socialized programs (SS, some form of universal healthcare), but I don’t see it would expand further successfully more so than those programs in the US.
    This was a spin off thread from the Democratic candidate thread, I didn't name it. I don't know why we're talking about socialism, much less communism. I'm just continuing the conversation, but I'm also putting up guard rails so I don't find myself defending the thing you're attacking, just because you're attacking it (if that makes sense).

  17. #57
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    We pulled this conversation out from the Dem Candidates thread becuase it had nothing to do with the Dem Candidates. We can use this to discuss socialism (or Democratic Socialism, more likely), otherwise, use the other approrpiate threads on health care and Dem Candidates.

    I don't want to have the Dem Candidates thread get completely run off the rails with six pages of debate on communism versus socialism versus democratic socialism because of a throwaway remark aimed at Sanders, for example. It should be about the candidates as a whole, not the granluar nature of their beliefs. Those topics — like this — should be their own thing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil in Absentia View Post
    We pulled this conversation out from the Dem Candidates thread becuase it had nothing to do with the Dem Candidates. We can use this to discuss socialism (or Democratic Socialism, more likely), otherwise, use the other approrpiate threads on health care and Dem Candidates.

    I don't want to have the Dem Candidates thread get completely run off the rails with six pages of debate on communism versus socialism versus democratic socialism because of a throwaway remark aimed at Sanders, for example. It should be about the candidates as a whole, not the granluar nature of their beliefs. Those topics — like this — should be their own thing.
    Yea, that makes sense for it not to be in the Dems thread, but I also don't want to sit here and defend a position that's not mine.

    I'm on board with a democracy that has expanded social programs that help the less fortunate, level the playing field, and work for everyone.

    [Insert your post about the word "socialist" being a dirty political word, vs Democratic Socialism]

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    Same. Democratic socialism. As in, Democratically controlled socialism. Much like we already have in Social Security, police and fire forces, Social Security, the U.S. Military/defense, Highways & roads, public libraries, the postal service, bridges, the FBI, the CIA, vaccines, museums, PUBLIC SCHOOLS, etc.
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    If we agree that all politicians are dirty why would anyone want to give them more control?

    And the point the democratic socialists don’t want you to think about is that while the candidate maybe on the ballot the bureaucrats are not. Expanding the government expands the bureaucracy. They have already shown that they think they run the country regardless of what the population votes for. We are witnessing it right now.

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