2019-20 Reports From the Rink ? Practice Updates Thread

Kakko isnt Eichel or McJesus. Gotta give him another year or so but do believe he’ll be a force. He’s got the tools

I think what has gone largely unmentioned here is who Kakko has been playing with compared to Jack Hughes.

 

https://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/nhl2019e.html

 

Hughes has been playing largely 1st and 2nd line minutes with much better linemates and almost 5+ minutes more of ice time per night despite almost identical production.

 

https://www.dailyfaceoff.com/teams/new-jersey-devils/line-combinations/

 

Hirschiser & Palmieri > Chytil & Lemieux

 

https://www.nhl.com/player/kaapo-kakko-8481554

https://www.nhl.com/player/jack-hughes-8481559

 

Like Gravesy said, if you are disappointed that he is not dominating like McDavid's rookie campaign, that is on you. I think the Rangers have handled him well, by letting him play sheltered minutes so that he can get acclimated to the North American game and really identify what he needs to work on for the off season, in which we hopefully will see him start to break out into a 20+ goal scoring power forward next season. That superstar we all want him to be, may not actually arrive until the 2021 or 2022 NHL seasons, but watch out when he does arrive.

I hear ya, Muddy! It's just gonna take some time to "ripen on the vine", my man!!

 

It's gonna take something that some of us Rangers fans are known to be a little short on.

 

(what's that Guns 'N Roses song again????) OH YEAH!!!! .....Patience!! ;)

I think what has gone largely unmentioned here is who Kakko has been playing with compared to Jack Hughes.

 

https://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/nhl2019e.html

 

Hughes has been playing largely 1st and 2nd line minutes with much better linemates and almost 5+ minutes more of ice time per night despite almost identical production.

 

https://www.dailyfaceoff.com/teams/new-jersey-devils/line-combinations/

 

Hirschiser & Palmieri > Chytil & Lemieux

 

https://www.nhl.com/player/kaapo-kakko-8481554

https://www.nhl.com/player/jack-hughes-8481559

 

Like Gravesy said, if you are disappointed that he is not dominating like McDavid's rookie campaign, that is on you. I think the Rangers have handled him well, by letting him play sheltered minutes so that he can get acclimated to the North American game and really identify what he needs to work on for the off season, in which we hopefully will see him start to break out into a 20+ goal scoring power forward next season. That superstar we all want him to be, may not actually arrive until the 2021 or 2022 NHL seasons, but watch out when he does arrive.

 

Maybe the minutes mean something and maybe the linemates mean something but just watching Hughes recently against Detroit would have given me wood if he was on the Rangers. He is far and away a better player than Kakko at this moment and shows signs of being a top-tier player. I haven't seen that with Kakko. Not saying it's not going to happen, but there's no comparing the two at this point.

Just to clarify, if you're suggesting anyone thought he was McDavid, then you're coming from the entirely wrong angle because no one has said or thought that. Maybe it's just hyperbole?

 

The issue isn't that Kakko isn't dominant. The issue is that he's not even a dominant third liner. He's barely serviceable. And the reason that is...He can't skate and he can't shoot, and it seems like his hands need to acclimate as well.

 

Those are just the observations of what he is today. That doesn't mean he won't be good in three years. It just mean's he isn't good today, and that's OK.

Maybe the minutes mean something and maybe the linemates mean something but just watching Hughes recently against Detroit would have given me wood if he was on the Rangers. He is far and away a better player than Kakko at this moment and shows signs of being a top-tier player. I haven't seen that with Kakko. Not saying it's not going to happen, but there's no comparing the two at this point.

 

Yes and no; you are using the eye test to measure. I only have seen Hughes play in the pre-seaon and he looked like a boy playing in a men's league and often over matched. Will take your word for it that he has come along from the preseason getting more minutes, but have marked the 3/7 game vs. the Devils to see for myself.

 

I would have to assume the minutes and line mates mean something in regards to production. The Devils are a borderline AHL team right now, but Hughes is getting top minutes with their top players; so if Kakko was playing on the Panarin line(not trying to start a discussion whether he should be), you have to assume that he would have to have a minimum of 5-10 more points. This would put his most important metric(production), at 1? times of a player that you said gives you wood, and by far the scoring lead for the 2019 draft class. It would also put him on pace for 35-40 points, and I don't think people would be critiquing his skating or shooting as much if that were the case.

 

Completely agree that right now, based on what he is showing and his deployment, it is underwhelming; the only point that I am making is that it is not abnormal either.

I believe Kakko will be good but I sincerely hope he takes some skating classes this summer. He just can?t keep up with nhl skaters.

 

 

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Seguin had 22 points his rookie season as a third liner

Seguin had 22 points his rookie season as a third liner

 

On a stacked Bruins team that won the Cup that year.

 

https://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/leagues/seasons/teams/0000322011.html

On a stacked Bruins team that won the Cup that year.

 

https://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/leagues/seasons/teams/0000322011.html

 

Speaking of which, that Seguin trade to Dallas has to go down as one of the all time worst NHL trades ever.

 

2013-Jul-04 Tyler Seguin traded from Boston Bruins with Ryan Button and Rich Peverley to Dallas Stars for Reilly Smith, Joe Morrow, Matt Fraser and Loui Eriksson

Just to add, here is a list of 18 year old nhl players and their production over nhl history

https://www.quanthockey.com/nhl/player-age/18-year-old-nhl-players.html

Seguin had 22 points his rookie season as a third liner

What do you think the reaction was from Bruins fans?

 

Just thinking people are having 2 different conversations. There's no one saying Kakko is a bust, but people are reacting as if that's what is being said.

It’s way too premature to call him a bust but there are a few very non nhl alarming traits about him for a guy that was predicted to be nhl ready.

Not really a mistake, just that this isn't some generational talent. Those guys produce in year one.

 

This.

I was hoping for a Matthews, Eichel, Laine, etc.

He?s not a franchise player

 

 

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I think if we're still having this discussion at the halfway point next season (or maybe even earlier), then we can start worrying. I'm not saying he has to look like a superstar but at the very least a competent NHL player.

This.

I was hoping for a Matthews, Eichel, Laine, etc.

He’s not a franchise player

 

 

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Franchise is a better word than generational

This.

I was hoping for a Matthews, Eichel, Laine, etc.

He’s not a franchise player

 

 

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How can you say something so ridiculous?

 

Using a modified form of Keirik's list(I filtered out defenseman & goalies as they have different metrics). By your definition, Mark Messier(33 points in 75 games), Patrick Marleau(32 points in 74 games), Brendan Shanahan(26 points in 65 games), Vinny Lecavlier( 28 points in 82 games), Tyler Seguin(22 points in 74 games), and Joe Thornton(7 points in 55 games) are all not franchise players.

 

In that same narrow definition, Trevor Linden(59 points in 89 games) & Sam Gagner(49 points in 79 games) as an 18 year old are franchise players; while both are/were great NHLers, nobody is building a franchise around either of those guys in their prime.

 

Have said before development is not linear, players grow and develop at different rates. While I understand that nobody is saying that Kakko is a bust, it is way too premature to even say whether he is going to be a franchise player(however you define that). Would think that the absolute earliest even the best scouts can accurately project what a player is going to be would be towards the end of the third year after their draft season. We really need to stop the negative speculation and just enjoy Kakko's progress which he has made since camp.

 

https://www.quanthockey.com/nhl/player-age/18-year-old-nhl-forwards.html

He’s not a bust

 

No one said generational talent.

In fact I heard a couple of people make that abundantly clear.

 

Franchise-altering talent/franchise player is what I heard. More than a few times.

I'm on the Kakko Choo Choo as well...

 

50 goals and 62 assists next year!!! Here we go!! Let's do this!!!

 

 

(.../looks for his medication)

How can you say something so ridiculous?

 

Using a modified form of Keirik's list(I filtered out defenseman & goalies as they have different metrics). By your definition, Mark Messier(33 points in 75 games), Patrick Marleau(32 points in 74 games), Brendan Shanahan(26 points in 65 games), Vinny Lecavlier( 28 points in 82 games), Tyler Seguin(22 points in 74 games), and Joe Thornton(7 points in 55 games) are all not franchise players.

 

In that same narrow definition, Trevor Linden(59 points in 89 games) & Sam Gagner(49 points in 79 games) as an 18 year old are franchise players; while both are/were great NHLers, nobody is building a franchise around either of those guys in their prime.

 

Have said before development is not linear, players grow and develop at different rates. While I understand that nobody is saying that Kakko is a bust, it is way too premature to even say whether he is going to be a franchise player(however you define that). Would think that the absolute earliest even the best scouts can accurately project what a player is going to be would be towards the end of the third year after their draft season. We really need to stop the negative speculation and just enjoy Kakko's progress which he has made since camp.

 

https://www.quanthockey.com/nhl/player-age/18-year-old-nhl-forwards.html

 

You're using rookie year production as a barometer for the conversation.

 

I don't think anyone else is looking at points.

 

Currently, he's not a good skater, not a great shooter, not a great puck handler, shies from contact, doesn't go to the tough areas of the ice, and isn't showing much hockey IQ.

 

There's no way to quantify any of that (except his xGF is embarrassing), but it's what i see when I watch him play most nights. Every 10th game or so, he's have a fire under his ass.

 

Otherwise you would never know he played in the other 9 games.

To be fair Hughes has only recently (~2 weeks ago) been moved up to play wing on their top line. Prior to that he was more often than not centering their 3rd line behind Hischier and Zajac. He's been playing down the lineup most of the season with hot garbage. His best game by far was the last one against the worst team in the league. Point being he's done virtually nothing as well like Kakko. Hughes build is more scary to me he's been getting smacked around all season. But maybe because he's more engaging more so it's more noticeable? Neither should be written off but neither has been good this season.

You're using rookie year production as a barometer for the conversation.

 

I don't think anyone else is looking at points.

 

Currently, he's not a good skater, not a great shooter, not a great puck handler, shies from contact, doesn't go to the tough areas of the ice, and isn't showing much hockey IQ.

 

There's no way to quantify any of that (except his xGF is embarrassing), but it's what i see when I watch him play most nights. Every 10th game or so, he's have a fire under his ass.

 

Otherwise you would never know he played in the other 9 games.

 

Thinking that we are completely talking past each other here(again).

 

As I stated, I am using production as a metric for some of the naysayers who are saying "Wow. I wish we were able to draft a franchise player with the #2 overall pick in last year's draft". My issue is that there is no way to possibly tell if he is going to be a "franchise player" whatever that means.

 

Is everything that you laid out, spot on? Yeah, he looks pretty invisible most nights. Having said that, I don't think anyone has watched enough film of Tyler Seguin or Patrick Marleau their rookie years to determine if they did not have the same struggles adapting the NHL game. If you have please feel free to speak up.

 

Time will tell.

Kakko needs a good amount of work (burst/first step, strength) with an offseason of training. I don't think many disagree with that. From what I've seen, the disagreement is whether he is better off being here versus working on his game in the AHL. Only a hockey break followed by an offseason of training will help with his current short comings. Playing in the AHL won't do anything right now. But he is learning a lot of other valuable lessons up in the NHL which is why I think he is where he needs to be.

For the most part the only time he’s noticeable is when he’s 2 steps behind everyone else and hooking his man as he blows by kaapo. He has 8 points at even strength.

 

I know some guys get defensive or upset if you call out these truths but it is what it is. No one wants him to fail or is booing him off the ice. We all know his age. I just think it’s painfully obvious he’s a boy among men and age is only part of the reason. Every single thing he does is slow and without conviction sans the once every 10 games as Pete said. If he were doing everything at an NHL speed and conviction I would feel so much better. I’m just hoping this is mostly due to intimidation and being uncomfortable in both the US and NY but in the same sense I’m not too excited if a fragile nature is the explanation for this as well.

For the most part the only time he’s noticeable is when he’s 2 steps behind everyone else and hooking his man as he blows by kaapo. He has 8 points at even strength.

 

I know some guys get defensive or upset if you call out these truths but it is what it is. No one wants him to fail or is booing him off the ice. We all know his age. I just think it’s painfully obvious he’s a boy among men and age is only part of the reason. Every single thing he does is slow and without conviction sans the once every 10 games as Pete said. If he were doing everything at an NHL speed and conviction I would feel so much better. I’m just hoping this is mostly due to intimidation and being uncomfortable in both the US and NY but in the same sense I’m not too excited if a fragile nature is the explanation for this as well.

 

nicely done.