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Thread: Universal Basic Income

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    Quote Originally Posted by rmc51 View Post
    Those examples aren't good enough. Tax refund? That's my money that I've already paid into the system. Paycheck? That's my money I have earned through labor. Keyword: earned. I'm unclear how you can view these as the same thing, and quite frankly, I'm unclear how you are so optimistic about people's ability to manage money. I certainly do not share the optimism. Additionally, if they are spending responsibly, then putting necessity restrictions on how they can spend it should be of no argument.
    I'm unsure how you're so pessimistic about it. Half of Americans don't have the fiscal bandwidth to be frivolous with a $1000 pay increase every month. Why police it? All you're doing is funneling that money to Wal-Mart instead of local restaurants, small businesses, and others who wouldn't have the capacity to actually stand up systems to take an EBT-ish thing.

    Further, the argument for "earned" is frivolous. The whole point of UBI is that you're paying into a system for this stipend. Pretending like it's any different from your tax refund is an arbitrary distinction designed to allow you to do the mental gymnastics needed to justify treating this concept like food stamps instead of economic stimulus.
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    Quote Originally Posted by G1000 View Post
    I'm unsure how you're so pessimistic about it. Half of Americans don't have the fiscal bandwidth to be frivolous with a $1000 pay increase every month. Why police it? All you're doing is funneling that money to Wal-Mart instead of local restaurants, small businesses, and others who wouldn't have the capacity to actually stand up systems to take an EBT-ish thing.

    Further, the argument for "earned" is frivolous. The whole point of UBI is that you're paying into a system for this stipend. Pretending like it's any different from your tax refund is an arbitrary distinction designed to allow you to do the mental gymnastics needed to justify treating this concept like food stamps instead of economic stimulus.
    Yeah. Looks like we're just so far apart on this one. There's no closing that gap in how we view free versus earned money. No mental gymnastics, just common sense.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Puck Head View Post
    Perhaps true. But a secondary possibility at best.
    But once again, stimulus packages are meant to generate the eco omg through goods and services. Not savings or debt relief
    That’s Econ 101.




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    Initially, yes. Most Americans would probably take that $1000 or so and put it toward their credit cards, student loans, car payments - existing debts. Think about some of the things you might do with an extra $12k a year, though - especially once that more immediate debt is relieved. Would you remodel your kitchen and employ a local contractor? Would that be enough for you to think about making a hobby a little more than a hobby and invest in some higher end equipment? Would that be the difference between renting a home and owning a home?

    A debt-reduced America is one where consumers have more spending power. That's going to lead to more jobs, more sales, more exchanges, etc. It's not an economic stimulus like the '08 bills; it's a demand-side stimulus.
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    Quote Originally Posted by rmc51 View Post
    Yeah. Looks like we're just so far apart on this one. There's no closing that gap in how we view free versus earned money. No mental gymnastics, just common sense.
    It's actually not that hard. You're an American and a taxpayer...you get a check. Your argument hinges entirely on a false narrative/common right-wing talking point that receiving something for the tax money you give the government to operate is somehow "free things", and that those who receive free things are lazy/wasteful/untrustworthy. There's a few layers to that argument - economic inequality, class-based, a bit of racism ("bling and iphones" or whatever that was earlier), and so on.

    In a less charged environment, it's Hobbes vs Locke and the nature of humans. I'd prefer to live in a world where I've got a shred of faith in my neighbor to do right.
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    Quote Originally Posted by G1000 View Post
    It's actually not that hard. You're an American and a taxpayer...you get a check. Your argument hinges entirely on a false narrative/common right-wing talking point that receiving something for the tax money you give the government to operate is somehow "free things", and that those who receive free things are lazy/wasteful/untrustworthy. There's a few layers to that argument - economic inequality, class-based, a bit of racism ("bling and iphones" or whatever that was earlier), and so on.

    In a less charged environment, it's Hobbes vs Locke and the nature of humans. I'd prefer to live in a world where I've got a shred of faith in my neighbor to do right.
    I don't know what form of UBI you are pushing, but proposals I have seen (i.e., Yang's for example) do not have requirements in order to qualify. You should clarify what your idea of UBI is here.

    This isn't right wing or left wing. This is the concept that people who pay nothing into the system, qualify for free money. Speaking of mental gymnastics, you can spin that one however you want. It's still free money.

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    Universal Basic Income

    Quote Originally Posted by rmc51 View Post
    I don't know what form of UBI you are pushing, but proposals I have seen (i.e., Yang's for example) do not have requirements in order to qualify. You should clarify what your idea of UBI is here.

    This isn't right wing or left wing. This is the concept that people who pay nothing into the system, qualify for free money. Speaking of mental gymnastics, you can spin that one however you want. It's still free money.
    I would guess the majority of users here are getting more benefits from social programs and federal/local funding then they pay in taxes.
    Itís all a matter of degree.


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    Before worrying about people "not putting into the pot", I think the public at large should be way more concerned with the things that the pot is spend on (military industry, graft gov't contracts)...And then the amount of people who can afford to put in the pot yet avoid putting in or put in as little as they can (the wealthy elite).

    Then we can worry about giving $12k annually to an immigrant family trying to live on minimum wage across 3 jobs and acting like they are the problem.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rmc51 View Post
    I don't know what form of UBI you are pushing, but proposals I have seen (i.e., Yang's for example) do not have requirements in order to qualify. You should clarify what your idea of UBI is here.

    This isn't right wing or left wing. This is the concept that people who pay nothing into the system, qualify for free money. Speaking of mental gymnastics, you can spin that one however you want. It's still free money.
    It's only "free money" if you think your tax dollars aren't yours to begin with. That's another story.

    This might be where we differ; the qualification for Yang's system is that you're an American over the age of 18. That's probably fine; most Americans over the age of 18 are either workers (and thus paying in), college students (and thus while not currently paying in, likely have a future of 40+ years of paying in), or retired (and thus have already paid in for 40+ years).

    Sure, there are some unemployed in there, and some lazy folk; UBI still leaves them behind as $12k/year is still not enough to live on.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    Before worrying about people "not putting into the pot", I think the public at large should be way more concerned with the things that the pot is spend on (military industry, graft gov't contracts)...And then the amount of people who can afford to put in the pot yet avoid putting in or put in as little as they can (the wealthy elite).

    Then we can worry about giving $12k annually to an immigrant family trying to live on minimum wage across 3 jobs and acting like they are the problem.
    Repped you, but public rep too. This is the thing that gets me: we can spend endlessly to bomb deserts half a world away and help banks write off trillions in debt, but god forbid we figure out a way for ordinary Americans to skill up, get educated, stay healthy, or get out of their debts.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    What data are you basing the first paragraph on?
    there isn't much if any data on this. This is a new concept, I imagine. but knowing spending habits of people in general, not many will be putting that money into savings accounts or paying off their student loans

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    Quote Originally Posted by CCCP View Post
    there isn't much if any data on this. This is a new concept, I imagine. but knowing spending habits of people in general, not many will be putting that money into savings accounts or paying off their student loans
    Good


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    Quote Originally Posted by Puck Head View Post
    In theory, we’d want that money spent rather than savings or paying down Debt


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    to stimulate the economy, I would agree. but just giving money away, not sure that's a good idea. and inflation will eventually catch up to this

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    Quote Originally Posted by G1000 View Post
    Initially, yes. Most Americans would probably take that $1000 or so and put it toward their credit cards, student loans, car payments - existing debts. Think about some of the things you might do with an extra $12k a year, though - especially once that more immediate debt is relieved. Would you remodel your kitchen and employ a local contractor? Would that be enough for you to think about making a hobby a little more than a hobby and invest in some higher end equipment? Would that be the difference between renting a home and owning a home?

    A debt-reduced America is one where consumers have more spending power. That's going to lead to more jobs, more sales, more exchanges, etc. It's not an economic stimulus like the '08 bills; it's a demand-side stimulus.
    your way of thinking is so utopian, its scary. its a naÔve way of thinking that people will spend their free money responsibly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by G1000 View Post
    It's actually not that hard. You're an American and a taxpayer...you get a check. Your argument hinges entirely on a false narrative/common right-wing talking point that receiving something for the tax money you give the government to operate is somehow "free things", and that those who receive free things are lazy/wasteful/untrustworthy. There's a few layers to that argument - economic inequality, class-based, a bit of racism ("bling and iphones" or whatever that was earlier), and so on.

    In a less charged environment, it's Hobbes vs Locke and the nature of humans. I'd prefer to live in a world where I've got a shred of faith in my neighbor to do right.
    so im a racist now, mike? nice going

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    Quote Originally Posted by Puck Head View Post
    I know where you getting at and I agree, but only for economic stimulus.

    I would probably lease a more expensive car with that money. ...fine, give the $1000/month please

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    I tend to be very anxious about my future money. Sadly I am 36 and probably a few years behind where I should be in my 401k. If I were to get an extra $1000 a month in income I would probably just put it to work for me by maxing out my 401K through my employer and dumping the $1000 monthly into a separate vanguard account or something to build another retirement nest.

    Like anything, some people will use it to their benefit and others will piss it away. But that decision should fall on them and their household.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunnar Stahl View Post
    I tend to be very anxious about my future money. Sadly I am 36 and probably a few years behind where I should be in my 401k. If I were to get an extra $1000 a month in income I would probably just put it to work for me by maxing out my 401K through my employer and dumping the $1000 monthly into a separate vanguard account or something to build another retirement nest.

    Like anything, some people will use it to their benefit and others will piss it away. But that decision should fall on them and their household.
    Not to branch off into another topic, but I contribute enough to my 401k to get my employer's contribution match, and then everything else goes into my Vanguard account. I've been really fond of the Roth IRA. I like the idea of a taxes already paid retirement account, though I hope the government doesn't try to change shit to get their grubby little hands on it.

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    Maybe my view is a bit different, but this seems to be going away from how I view "UBI".

    I dont see this as an additional income, but more along the line of income replacement (for the 2nd adult no longer working). Instead of paying for daycare, not raising your kids, running around all day, you rec a portion of that income to, essentially, stay home and take care of your family. But with this, you eliminate other "hand outs", so you dont need to necessarily "increase" the pot. The money's there, just listed under a different billing number
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    Quote Originally Posted by CCCP View Post
    your way of thinking is so utopian, its scary. its a naÔve way of thinking that people will spend their free money responsibly.
    Gotta believe in something, right? Why not that the people of the richest, greatest country ever would make different decisions?

    Or, back to my greater point, why does it matter? If you want to take your 1k and do something different than your neighbor...go for it. Not my business.

    If putting your faith in fellow Americans is scary, naive, and utopian, well...I'm not really sure what to tell you.
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    Quote Originally Posted by josh View Post
    Maybe my view is a bit different, but this seems to be going away from how I view "UBI".

    I dont see this as an additional income, but more along the line of income replacement (for the 2nd adult no longer working). Instead of paying for daycare, not raising your kids, running around all day, you rec a portion of that income to, essentially, stay home and take care of your family. But with this, you eliminate other "hand outs", so you dont need to necessarily "increase" the pot. The money's there, just listed under a different billing number
    The beauty of the idea is that it's situationally agnostic. You don't need welfare/stamps, because UBI. You ostensibly pay the Stay-at-Home parent 12k (24k if you're a two-parent household, if you want to look at it that way) if that's a life decision you choose to make. You've got a bit of a safety net if you want to try your hand at being an enterprenuer - you don't lose it all.

    For those who choose to maintain the status quo - it's an "oh shit" fund for a broken AC, an unexpected hospital bill, car repairs - or a chance to invest in savings, or..well...whatever. Sure, plenty of folks will take that check and run to the bar, or the nightclub...heck, I'd probably buy Rangers tickets if I were feeling like I deserved a break. Others won't - either way, that kind of cashflow is good for the local economy.
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