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Thread: Rangers Manage Expectations After Adding Panarin, Trouba, Kakko

  1. #321
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    Quote Originally Posted by Future View Post
    There's no such thing as accelerating a rebuild...you're either rebuilding or you're not. They're not anymore, they're trying to win.
    Ummmm, okay. You literally just used the phrase.

    Quote Originally Posted by Future View Post
    I think it's pretty easy to be a Rangers fan and not be thrilled with this offseason if you don't agree with accelerating the rebuild. I'm not, especially since I don't really buy Trouba as a #1.

    Winning the lottery probably changes things, but I don't like that they have reset expectations so quickly. I think they've put themselves in an awful tough spot if they end up being bad this year, especially if you plan on moving on from Kreider. Or, what if you're in the playoffs at the deadline, but get a big offer for Kreider? Now you're in a situation where you either sell making a run, or continuing the rebuild despite being good, similar to what CBJ did last year.
    Quote Originally Posted by Future View Post
    The issue is if this core isn't good enough to be a contender, because you've abandoned patience. The Rangers are betting that it is, and that they don't need to continue to add prospects, because you don't trade a first-round pick and spend $20m on 2 players and say, "Yea, it's ok if we suck this year." There's basically 3 scenarios that can play out in the next two years:

    1. They're a contender because all the prospects make the leap.
    2. They make the playoffs but are clearly not good enough to contend.
    3. They still suck.

    If 1 is true, you're either re-signing Kreider and getting closer to the cap or losing a major contributor (as it stands now) AND the package that he'd bring back. If 2 is true, you're stuck in the middle and trading picks/prospects to get better quickly, plus you missed out on the top of a loaded 2020 class. If 3 is true, then the Panarin and Trouba acquisitions didn't move the needle at all, and the offseason is a waste.

    I don't doubt the talent in the pipeline that this org has built, but by "accelerating," you've forfeited the ability to be patient with the group as a whole. I haven't liked the pacing of the rebuild since the Stepan trade, and they've drawn a line in the sand that this offseason changes things. That's a tough sell to me.
    They didn't forfeit anything. Trouba is 25. If the current prospects will be developed before he's 30. Ya'll are acting like they traded a 1st rounder for a rental and signed a bunch of mid-30's UFAs.

  2. #322
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    All I wanted to know is what people expected panarin s production to be. I say 92 points. So if he’s in the neighborhood than production wise he would have lived up to expectations. Not trying to dive back into the logic of signing him or not. His salary is important because with being paid like a star he should produce like a star and be expected to as well.

    Just like when a player is drafted puts expectations on a player so does a contract.

  3. #323
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    Quote Originally Posted by Long live the King View Post
    Ummmm, okay. You literally just used the phrase.

    They didn't forfeit anything. Trouba is 25. If the current prospects will be developed before he's 30. Ya'll are acting like they traded a 1st rounder for a rental and signed a bunch of mid-30's UFAs.
    Ummm for the sake of conversation, b/c others do.

    No I'm not. It doesn't matter if Trouba is 25 or 35 or Panarin is 28 or 38. They're not going to hold onto the same team for 8 years if they aren't good enough to win. If, in 3 years, they aren't contending, they're going to have to move some of young guys to bring in better players. There is no flexibility on that, because you can't justify paying Trouba and Panarin for all those years and not getting better in a hurry. Do people honestly think they're ok with being bad-mediocre for another 4 years until all of the prospects are ready?

    I mean seriously...what if Lias, Howden and Chytil are what they are? What if Kravtsov is Buch 2.0 and Kakko isn't actually ready for an 82-game slate until he's 21? What if Fox is so deficient defensively that he needs to years in A? What if Shesty can't transition, Rykov chooses to go back to the motherland, There are a LOT of things that all have to go right for this team to be a contender any time soon. You think this organization is going to be ok with finishing 10th in the East in 2022 with Panarin here?

  4. #324
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    I don’t understand what you point is. Are u saying that they shouldn’t have signed Panarin because our draft picks may not pan out and be a contender in 3-4 years?

  5. #325
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    I'm not understanding either.
    So they shouldn't sign any free agents or trade for anyone because their draft picks might turn into crap?

  6. #326
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    Quote Originally Posted by CCCP View Post
    I don’t understand what you point is. Are u saying that they shouldn’t have signed Panarin because our draft picks may not pan out and be a contender in 3-4 years?
    No. I'm saying that when you sign Panarin AND Trouba, you have completely changed the expectations overnight. It could work, sure. But you've now lost the ability to be as patient because you no longer have the "we're rebuilding" approach to lean on, you've lost flexibilty in player movement in the future - including Kreider - because there is now a win/loss context that matters, and you subject yourself to that grey area of 10th place, where you don't get premium picks and you're not really a contender.

    Panarin and Trouba make a lot more sense to me 3 years from now, when you know what the prospects actually are. Those are guys that should be finishing pieces to a rebuild, not key components of it. Now, whether we like it or not, they're looking for pieces to compliment Trouba, compliment Panarin, which could very well mean moving a Lundqvist, Kravtsov, etc. etc., instead of naturally letting your building blocks sort themselves out.

    Though I don't agree with the amount of patience Gorton has shown in tearing it down, I'll give him credit in that it worked to acquire a lot of really good talent and prospects. However, he is now flipping on that approach and betting that those prospects are enough to be championship type team. That's a pretty serious bet, and if it doesn't come to fruition quickly, you've got to undo a lot of that initial work, instead of hedging against some of those guys not hitting.

  7. #327
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    In short, signing starts the clock on competitiveness.

  8. #328
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fatfrancesa View Post
    All I wanted to know is what people expected panarin s production to be. I say 92 points. So if hes in the neighborhood than production wise he would have lived up to expectations. Not trying to dive back into the logic of signing him or not. His salary is important because with being paid like a star he should produce like a star and be expected to as well.

    Just like when a player is drafted puts expectations on a player so does a contract.
    Personally, I'm not holding high expectations for Panarin to set personal point records on this team in year 1. There's a lot of kids being injected into the lineup. I don't think you'll see the kind of production you are expecting, at least until the second year. So I don't think it's a black and white question of an exact point number he has to hit for year 1 to be considered a success for him. If he gets 25 goals and 70 points this year, and the rest of the team does pretty shitty, how do we interpret that? I'd call it pretty successful, knowing that the following year the kids will have more experience and would presumably elevate their play (hopefully).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dunny View Post
    In short, signing starts the clock on competitiveness.
    Right. So it's really smart that they signed a 25 and 27 year old, and not 31-32 year olds like Minnesota.

  10. #330
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    Quote Originally Posted by rmc51 View Post
    Personally, I'm not holding high expectations for Panarin to set personal point records on this team in year 1. There's a lot of kids being injected into the lineup. I don't think you'll see the kind of production you are expecting, at least until the second year. So I don't think it's a black and white question of an exact point number he has to hit for year 1 to be considered a success for him. If he gets 25 goals and 70 points this year, and the rest of the team does pretty shitty, how do we interpret that? I'd call it pretty successful, knowing that the following year the kids will have more experience and would presumably elevate their play (hopefully).
    Of course it’s hypothetical and we can discuss his impact when the season is over. But it’s august and it’s just for conversation sake. A lot more goes into a players worth than points obviously. I was just curious what people’s expectations were being that some will throw his point totals in past years as the reason they signed him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fatfrancesa View Post
    Of course it’s hypothetical and we can discuss his impact when the season is over. But it’s august and it’s just for conversation sake. A lot more goes into a players worth than points obviously. I was just curious what people’s expectations were being that some will throw his point totals in past years as the reason they signed him.
    I expect him to hit 90 points at some point during his contract here. Probably multiple times. Just not this year. I don't expect 100, but it's possible.

  12. #332
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    Right. So it's really smart that they signed a 25 and 27 year old, and not 31-32 year olds like Minnesota.
    Yes, in some respects, certainly.

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    Just curious if the goal posts will be moved. Like pre draft kakko is a generational talent ready right now to be a star. Post draft the expectations along with reality settles down a bit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fatfrancesa View Post
    Just curious if the goal posts will be moved. Like pre draft kakko is a generational talent ready right now to be a star. Post draft the expectations along with reality settles down a bit.
    No, but if I'm honest, if the Rangers win a Cup I won't give a flying fuck if Panarin is a 75 point player or a 95 point player.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rmc51 View Post
    No, but if I'm honest, if the Rangers win a Cup I won't give a flying fuck if Panarin is a 75 point player or a 95 point player.
    Agreed

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    Put him on the 2nd line with Chytil and Kravtsov. Help develop the kids and spread out scoring. And if he helps those guys progress, and helps the team win, I'd be fine with a 70 point season.

    I'll be more worried about points when the team is a cup contender. If theyre a cup contender this season or next season, and Panarin isnt doing shit, then yes, there will be issues.
    Lias Andersson for #AJT2019

  17. #337
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    Zibanejad scores and career high 74 points last year on a crap team, but Panarin is going to come in and score a career low. Just doesn't make sense.

  18. #338
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fatfrancesa View Post
    Just curious if the goal posts will be moved. Like pre draft kakko is a generational talent ready right now to be a star. Post draft the expectations along with reality settles down a bit.
    Link to someone even remotely credible describing Kakko as a generational talent?
    I don’t mean to be a prick, but it feels like you’re just making shit up to fabricate a point at this stage.
    Last edited by Gravesy; 08-22-2019 at 02:34 AM.

  19. #339
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    For the record Vegas still has us as a fringe playoff team. We are tied with the Hurricanes as 8th most likely team to win the Eastern Conference. Odds as of Mon Aug 19. Sixth to win the Metro behind Capitals, Penguins, Hurricanes, Devils, Islanders

    http://www.vegasinsider.com/nhl/odds/futures/
    "We're all f*cked. It helps to remember that." - George Carlin

    "How many Cups you've got?" - Esa Tikkanen

    "Hatred can keep you warm when you run out of liquor" - Ray Ratto, Dan Patrick show 1/20/2017

  20. #340
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gravesy View Post
    Link to someone even remotely credible describing Kakko as a generational talent?
    I don’t mean to be a prick, but it feels like you’re just making shit up to fabricate a point at this stage.
    Not at all. The underlying point is that it’s a given that kakko is penciled in as a top line forward at minimum. I don’t doubt that but just reading posts on here the general discussion pre draft has tempered as it should. He’s a kid that needs time and the least amount of pressure possible. Not to go down this hole but Kenny Albert for one is reliable, no?

    My general point is to get people’s expectation of what panarin will produce. Pre July 1st when his destination was uncertain arguments were made at what he’d mean signing here and what he’d bring. Obviously intangibles, effect on others play, etc will have to sorted out and is not easily determined. Point totals are just that and that’s all I’m asking.

    You don’t need to read into it anymore than that. Kakko, Kravtsov, Fox, and trouba production have all been discussed without incident. Why can’t the same be discussed with panarin

    My expectations
    Kakko 55 points
    Kravtsov 40 points
    Fox. 25 points
    Trouba. 45 points
    Panarin. 92 points

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