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Thread: Rangers Buyout Kevin Shattenkirk

  1. #201
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    You're not, but you're also not really being objective in the same way you're asking others to be...And you're cherry picking.

    No one said he was close to being a bust. What was said was he was closer to a bust than a 25 goal scorer...And the 25 goal marker was one that you introduced for hyperbole. You also haven't really stated what Andersson has done to warrant being given anything at all? I know what you're gonna say, "Howden sucked, yada yada..." but I'll get to that in a second.

    It's silly to ask for statistics driven argument for things that happen in training camp. For one thing, unless you're going to look back at pre-season box scores and add up stats, they're not readily available. On top of that, it's impossible to gauge the quality of competition in pre-season games when teams could be dressing their AHL team or guys on PTO.

    The bold is certainly accurate and probably the only salient point. The rest of it is pretty much a straw man, like the section above. Howden is 6 months older, not a year. He was picked at 27, not 7. While people don't want to act like draft position matters, it most certainly does. People try to make siloed or obscure contrarian arguments on how many picks go on to play in the NHL and are productive vs draft position....yet everyone shot their load when we won the lottery...So yea, it matters.

    Back to Howden...When it seems like players who don't deserve ice time are getting a role over a player who you think does, you have to look at what's happening off the ice. There is no question that ADA was better than Pionk and Shattenkirk last year. But ADA has well documented off ice issues that Quinn is not dealing with. So ADA sits. Chytil, at times, sits. Howden sat. You really have to ask yourself what Lias is doing off the ice (or not doing) that he can't beat out Brandan Smith for a 4th line role on this team.

    That speaks volumes as to what Quinn feels he's getting from Andersson.
    Well said and on the money imo.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Future View Post
    Yea, agreed with next year as an important season, but even still, it's not like he has to produce.

    I don't think people consider Brayden Schenn a bust, and he didn't score 20 goals until 5 years after he was drafted. Lias could go 10-20 and be right where he should be in his development, but some will simply look at that and think he's a bust. Valli made a good point that Cally was 23 when he entered the league, and that's important. Lias has higher expectations because of his draft status, but that doesn't mean they should be impatient with him.
    That's probably the positive outcome here; Brayden Schenn would be an ideal outcome from the Lias pick. Keep in mind, though - Schenn was traded before he really found his footing in like his...D+5 season.
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  3. #203
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    Quote Originally Posted by G1000 View Post
    That's probably the positive outcome here; Brayden Schenn would be an ideal outcome from the Lias pick. Keep in mind, though - Schenn was traded before he really found his footing in like his...D+5 season.
    Right, but that's what I mean. D+5 is where a guy like Lias is likely to hit his stride. Not when he's 21. Couturier was in that same boat.

    Schenn was traded as part of the Richards deal though, it wasn't like the Kings were giving up on him. I'm not saying you can't or shouldn't trade Lias, I'd be fine with it, but there's a difference between trading him because you think he's a bust, and trading him to get an All Star back.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Future View Post
    Right, but that's what I mean. D+5 is where a guy like Lias is likely to hit his stride. Not when he's 21. Couturier was in that same boat.

    Schenn was traded as part of the Richards deal though, it wasn't like the Kings were giving up on him. I'm not saying you can't or shouldn't trade Lias, I'd be fine with it, but there's a difference between trading him because you think he's a bust, and trading him to get an All Star back.
    Fair, but didn't LA get kind of impatient with him? They were sitting there with Brown, Doughty, Kopitar, etc and needing Schenn to take the next step faster.

    I might be making shit up; I don't really remember the details of non-Rangers deals that took place 8 years ago.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Dude View Post
    And never elivated any mediocre players game. Never dominated seasons. Never won. Way to combine two players point totals to equal over a ppg. Logical.
    He didnít. The games played was combined from both of them.


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  6. #206
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    Quote Originally Posted by Long live the King View Post
    I'm not talking Hank and Datsyuk late. Those are indeed extreme examples. I'm talking about, for example, Kucherov (58) and Gaudreau (104) being the best players in the 2011 draft while there's 6 first rounders with 0, 0, 2, 12, 20, and 31 NHL games. Draft rankings aren't perfect and no team has a perfect draft history.

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    And I bet fans of those teams get on message boards and talk about how their team made a bad pick.

    So why are we not allowed to?

  7. #207
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    But again, no one called him a bust. It's a straw man.

    The hockey player today is not good. Does not mean he'll never be good. Just that he's not, today.

    Why can people (not you, others) not separate a current assessment vs projection?
    Quote Originally Posted by G1000 View Post
    Ah. Small N there; highly unlikely you get that player beyond round 1. It happens, but not commonly.

    It's all overblown at this point, though. He's right at the spot where he SHOULD be making the transition properly to the NHL. It's fair to say this is a big season for him and for his future, and it's probably fair to start throwing around the B word if he can't get it together this year. Not quite yet though.

    This is a big year for damn near every player picked after Elias Pettersson in that draft, though. Lots of very interesting talents, lots of very questionable players.

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    Rangers Buyout Kevin Shattenkirk

    Quote Originally Posted by 4EverRangerFrank View Post
    https://t.co/PjO6lEe6zw

    NY Post: Kevin Shattenkirk is not close to Rangersí worst free-agent bust
    Those were all pre salary cap with the exception of one.
    Shatt should be up there


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    Last edited by Puck Head; 08-05-2019 at 02:27 PM.

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    Looks like Shatty signed with Tampa:

  10. #210
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    Why can people (not you, others) not separate a current assessment vs projection?
    I am almost entirely sure that nobody in this thread has tried to say Andersson's play has been good. Can you show me where someone made the assessment that 6 points in 42 games was a better result than "not good"?

    Speaking for myself, through 7+ posts the only thing that I have been trying to articulate is that it is too soon to call him a bust and that he has higher/unreasonable expectations on his development because the Rangers reached for him at #7. It almost sounds like you are saying the same thing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    But again, no one called him a bust. It's a straw man.

    The hockey player today is not good. Does not mean he'll never be good. Just that he's not, today.

    Why can people (not you, others) not separate a current assessment vs projection?
    Immediate gratification world combined with better than ever scouting combined with lofty expectations given draft position?

    In truth, it's probably expectation bias. At this very moment, Lias Andersson is not a good NHL player, but he was drafted 7th overall, thus he has to be a good NHL player. It's not an either/or - both can be true (or neither, for that matter).
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  12. #212
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    Quote Originally Posted by MuddyInTheMiddle View Post
    I am almost entirely sure that nobody in this thread has tried to say Andersson's play has been good. Can you show me where someone made the assessment that 6 points in 42 games was a better result than "not good"?

    Speaking for myself, through 7+ posts the only thing that I have been trying to articulate is that it is too soon to call him a bust and that he has higher/unreasonable expectations on his development because the Rangers reached for him at #7. It almost sounds like you are saying the same thing.
    Just to challenge that: Lias has had two cups of coffee in the NHL including an extended stint in his D+2 year. That puts him 9th in his draft class right now, and in spite of his production, being an NHLer at 19 is a big accomplishment. It's not necessarily a predictor of future success, but it's a big deal.

    Hard to tell if it was a reach though - the rankings and assessments for this draft were all over the place, and revisionist history kicking in makes this way worse. This draft was an oddball.
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    Quote Originally Posted by G1000 View Post
    Just to challenge that: Lias has had two cups of coffee in the NHL including an extended stint in his D+2 year. That puts him 9th in his draft class right now, and in spite of his production, being an NHLer at 19 is a big accomplishment. It's not necessarily a predictor of future success, but it's a big deal.

    Hard to tell if it was a reach though - the rankings and assessments for this draft were all over the place, and revisionist history kicking in makes this way worse. This draft was an oddball.
    Him being in the NHL at 19, even on a bad team, is a fair point and to be honest might be working against him.

    I think though that he was at least somewhat of a reach. While you are right that a number of the major outlets and ďexpertsĒ had discrepancies when comparing (ISS had Pettersson at 20 in their final rankings) Andersson consistently fell in the 12-18 range. I havenít seen him ranked higher than 11 anywhere, ISS had him in the mid-20ís. Really, based on the rankings, he should have been like mid-teens.

    But Iíll agree that itís way too early and this draft class seems hard to nail down based on the rankings being at least somewhat inconsistent
    Last edited by RangersIn7; 08-05-2019 at 03:46 PM.

  14. #214
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    Quote Originally Posted by G1000 View Post
    Just to challenge that: Lias has had two cups of coffee in the NHL including an extended stint in his D+2 year. That puts him 9th in his draft class right now, and in spite of his production, being an NHLer at 19 is a big accomplishment. It's not necessarily a predictor of future success, but it's a big deal.

    Hard to tell if it was a reach though - the rankings and assessments for this draft were all over the place, and revisionist history kicking in makes this way worse. This draft was an oddball.
    This where I draw the line between defending Andersson as a "potential bust" and acknowledging a big accomplishment on his part. If you look at 2012-2015 draft classes, every single 1-15 1st round pick has gotten at least a 30 game audition in the NHL; this list includes Griffin Rheinhart, Slater Koekkoek, Samuel Morin, Michael Dalle Colle, & Haydn Fleury who are all legitimate 1st round busts. The reality is that 1st round draft picks, especially ones from the 1st half of the 1st round are extremely valuable as those are where all NHL teams have the best chance of finding "develop-able" talent.

    Personally speaking, I am patient and optimistic that Andersson's development will follow a Brayden Schenn or Sean Courtier, but even if he turns out to be more Oscar Lindberg, the Rangers will still have acquired a useful bottom 6 talent. If that is what he ultimately develops into, it's really on Jeff Gorton, Gordie Clark, or whoever lobbied for that pick to be used on him instead of a Casey Middlestadt, Gabe Vilardi, Nick Suzuki, or Ryan Poehling who all look like legitimate NHLers right now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MuddyInTheMiddle View Post
    This where I draw the line between defending Andersson as a "potential bust" and acknowledging a big accomplishment on his part. If you look at 2012-2015 draft classes, every single 1-15 1st round pick has gotten at least a 30 game audition in the NHL; this list includes Griffin Rheinhart, Slater Koekkoek, Samuel Morin, Michael Dalle Colle, & Haydn Fleury who are all legitimate 1st round busts. The reality is that 1st round draft picks, especially ones from the 1st half of the 1st round are extremely valuable as those are where all NHL teams have the best chance of finding "develop-able" talent.

    Personally speaking, I am patient and optimistic that Andersson's development will follow a Brayden Schenn or Sean Courtier, but even if he turns out to be more Oscar Lindberg, the Rangers will still have acquired a useful bottom 6 talent. If that is what he ultimately develops into, it's really on Jeff Gorton, Gordie Clark, or whoever lobbied for that pick to be used on him instead of a Casey Middlestadt, Gabe Vilardi, Nick Suzuki, or Ryan Poehling who all look like legitimate NHLers right now.
    Fair, though Mittelstadt looks like he's suffering from being on Buffalo, Poehling looks like he'll be more like a bottom 6 center (in spite of his first game hatty), and Vilardi's development has been in neutral since the Kings selected him.

    As I said, weird draft. Vilardi might be the oddest of the bunch; the scouts were talking about him like he was a surefire 1c.
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    Quote Originally Posted by G1000 View Post
    Fair, though Mittelstadt looks like he's suffering from being on Buffalo, Poehling looks like he'll be more like a bottom 6 center (in spite of his first game hatty), and Vilardi's development has been in neutral since the Kings selected him.

    As I said, weird draft. Vilardi might be the oddest of the bunch; the scouts were talking about him like he was a surefire 1c.
    It's almost as if the writers at Blue Line Station are reading this thread considering this went up today(kidding).

    https://bluelinestation.com/2019/08/...mittelstadt/2/

  17. #217
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    Quote Originally Posted by MuddyInTheMiddle View Post
    I am almost entirely sure that nobody in this thread has tried to say Andersson's play has been good. Can you show me where someone made the assessment that 6 points in 42 games was a better result than "not good"?

    Speaking for myself, through 7+ posts the only thing that I have been trying to articulate is that it is too soon to call him a bust and that he has higher/unreasonable expectations on his development because the Rangers reached for him at #7. It almost sounds like you are saying the same thing.
    I am. He should not have went at 7, that's an indictment of the team, not the player. Most times, it is. McIlrath is a bust. His fault? No, he shouldn't have been picked where he was.

  18. #218
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    Quote Originally Posted by MuddyInTheMiddle View Post

    Personally speaking, I am patient and optimistic that Andersson's development will follow a Brayden Schenn or Sean Courtier, but even if he turns out to be more Oscar Lindberg, the Rangers will still have acquired a useful bottom 6 talent. If that is what he ultimately develops into, it's really on Jeff Gorton, Gordie Clark, or whoever lobbied for that pick to be used on him instead of a Casey Middlestadt, Gabe Vilardi, Nick Suzuki, or Ryan Poehling who all look like legitimate NHLers right now.
    I agree with a lot of what you've been saying in here, but

    Vilardi - 0 NHL games
    Suzuki - 0 NHL games
    Poehling - 1 NHL game, admittedly scoring a hat trick

    I'm not sure how we can conclude that either of these guys look like legitimate NHLers "right now".

  19. #219
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gravesy View Post
    I agree with a lot of what you've been saying in here, but

    Vilardi - 0 NHL games
    Suzuki - 0 NHL games
    Poehling - 1 NHL game, admittedly scoring a hat trick

    I'm not sure how we can conclude that either of these guys look like legitimate NHLers "right now".
    Totally fair point. Not worth getting into the minutia of each player, but what I meant to and should have said was they were all available, and have continued to develop into higher ceiling players.

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