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Thread: Why Kevin Shattenkirk Will Soon be Rangers Salary-Cap Casualty

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    The thing about Kreider is that his speed is the source of too few goals, while his size and savvy in front of the net is where he gets most of them. He'll be fast for a long time to come, and when he loses a step, he'll be a pretty good player. It's too bad that we likely are going to lose him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sod16 View Post
    The thing about Kreider is that his speed is the source of too few goals, while his size and savvy in front of the net is where he gets most of them. He'll be fast for a long time to come, and when he loses a step, he'll be a pretty good player. It's too bad that we likely are going to lose him.
    I agree with that for the most part. Taking all the bumps around the net in the dirty areas will take its toll though.

    It’s not too bad they’ll lose him though if they have to shell out $45-50 million to keep him.

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    Seems like it will be just wait and see time with Kreider. If there was much of a market he would have been dealt by now. In the unlikely event we have a playoff shot we keep him. Otherwise we deal him at deadline. Makes no sense to sign him long term. Donít have the money and we could not lock up another 7 years for a player approaching 30. I hate the idea of a buyout at this stage of the build since it will just make things tougher in a few years. Good news is we will have 4 nice lines if young centers work out.

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    I don't think there's any scenario where you can keep him for the whole season and let him walk. That would be a terrible thing to do. We're not winning a cup this season so what's the point? There isn't one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RangersIn7 View Post
    Do you think that they donít have a good idea of his ask in both dollars and term just because a formal negotiation hasnít occurred?
    As for having to wait, heís in the last year of his deal, so Iím pretty sure he can sign whenever. Unless Iím wrong, only on a 1year deal does the January 1st date apply, if thatís what youíre referring to.

    And if youíre saying they werenít pushing that hard at the draft, how do you know that? And define ďpushing hard.Ē
    If he had conversations with 5 teams would that be pushing hard?
    Or would it have to be 10?

    Itís not speculation

    Itís deductive reasoning

    Arriving at a conclusion that Kreider is a likely candidate to be moved based on him entering the final year of his contract, will likely want more than they can afford, will likely want to get paid till heís 35+, has had no negotiation as of yet, theyíve already attempted to trade him, and the numerous articles about the topic is the likely conclusion you arrive at. That isnít speculation. Itís logic.

    And this is a fan forum. Weíre supposed to do that.

    Is it that you feel Iím speculating?
    Or that I say they ďdonít want himĒ?
    Or do you love Kreider and not want to accept that itís at least fairly likely heís not here any more in the foreseeable future?

    Heís gotta be looking at what Hayes got a d shoot close to that. Even at a discount itís still gonna be $40 million
    Still too much.

    Heís a good player. But heís replaceable
    I donít understand why itís a thing for some fans of his that we try desperately to keep him. Even if he does go elsewhere and thrive, which I believe could happen, what does it cost.
    Heís not the future of this team.
    Others are.
    Make room for them
    Very few players in the league are players you don't trade, and CK isn't one of them. In fact, no one on the team is like that. My issue is that you are jumping to conclusions in saying he doesn't fit into their plans moving forward, when its far from the truth. Im sure they were listening to offers on everyone at the draft. Kreider's name comes up more because after this season he is a free agent. He can't sign anything until I believe its December 1st, might be January 1st, so thats why there isn't any talk. They won't talk numbers because say he is on pace for 40 goals this season, you don't think he is going to want more than what he wants now? Or if he is having a worse year than thought, he knows he will get less, not to mention, the Rangers still have 2 RFA's to deal with plus possible buy outs. Plus, this isn't the time of year you move a player like him, you make the move at the deadline if nothing is going on.

    Saying he doesn't have a future here is far from the truth. What he brings on the ice with his speed and size alone is a rare commodity in the NHL. I don't care if the move him, just like I don't care if any player gets moved, I just don't get the speculation that because they were listening to deals at the draft or that they haven't started negotiations yet, that that means he doesn't fit into their plans anymore.

    This is a fan forum, but when your making speculative posts with no evidence to back it up, then yes Im going to question it. If they were shopping him as hard as you are saying, what were they asking for him and who were they talking with? Again, he was available, which they said, but Im sure that everyone on the team was available at the right price as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NYR2711 View Post
    Very few players in the league are players you don't trade, and CK isn't one of them. In fact, no one on the team is like that. My issue is that you are jumping to conclusions in saying he doesn't fit into their plans moving forward, when its far from the truth. Im sure they were listening to offers on everyone at the draft. Kreider's name comes up more because after this season he is a free agent. He can't sign anything until I believe its December 1st, might be January 1st, so thats why there isn't any talk. They won't talk numbers because say he is on pace for 40 goals this season, you don't think he is going to want more than what he wants now? Or if he is having a worse year than thought, he knows he will get less, not to mention, the Rangers still have 2 RFA's to deal with plus possible buy outs. Plus, this isn't the time of year you move a player like him, you make the move at the deadline if nothing is going on.

    Saying he doesn't have a future here is far from the truth. What he brings on the ice with his speed and size alone is a rare commodity in the NHL. I don't care if the move him, just like I don't care if any player gets moved, I just don't get the speculation that because they were listening to deals at the draft or that they haven't started negotiations yet, that that means he doesn't fit into their plans anymore.

    This is a fan forum, but when your making speculative posts with no evidence to back it up, then yes Im going to question it. If they were shopping him as hard as you are saying, what were they asking for him and who were they talking with? Again, he was available, which they said, but Im sure that everyone on the team was available at the right price as well.
    Pretty sure he can sign an extension now. I think the Jan 1st requirement on extensions is only for players who just signed a 1 year deal or went to arbitration.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NYR2711 View Post
    Very few players in the league are players you don't trade, and CK isn't one of them. In fact, no one on the team is like that. My issue is that you are jumping to conclusions in saying he doesn't fit into their plans moving forward, when its far from the truth. Im sure they were listening to offers on everyone at the draft. Kreider's name comes up more because after this season he is a free agent. He can't sign anything until I believe its December 1st, might be January 1st, so thats why there isn't any talk. They won't talk numbers because say he is on pace for 40 goals this season, you don't think he is going to want more than what he wants now? Or if he is having a worse year than thought, he knows he will get less, not to mention, the Rangers still have 2 RFA's to deal with plus possible buy outs. Plus, this isn't the time of year you move a player like him, you make the move at the deadline if nothing is going on.

    Saying he doesn't have a future here is far from the truth. What he brings on the ice with his speed and size alone is a rare commodity in the NHL. I don't care if the move him, just like I don't care if any player gets moved, I just don't get the speculation that because they were listening to deals at the draft or that they haven't started negotiations yet, that that means he doesn't fit into their plans anymore.

    This is a fan forum, but when your making speculative posts with no evidence to back it up, then yes Im going to question it. If they were shopping him as hard as you are saying, what were they asking for him and who were they talking with? Again, he was available, which they said, but Im sure that everyone on the team was available at the right price as well.

    Just because you choose to ignore or not view these points as evidence that he isn’t in the long-term plan, doesn’t make it so. And that’s aside from the fact that it’s hard to see them finding the kind of money they’ll need to sign him. And not to mention, his contract wouldn’t kick in till next year, when he’s 29, so they’d be paying a guy who isn’t elite into the age 34-36 range, which they shouldn’t do.

    As for not talking numbers, we all have a good idea as to where they’re going to be more or less. Gorton knows roughly what it will cost to keep him around and it’s very likely to be a cost prohibitive number in dollars and term.

    Knowing that, plus his age, plus their cap situation, plus him being made available, plus no negotiation, plus the many articles and comments from the media IS evidence that you base an assertion of him not being in the plan long-term upon. Just because there’s no smoking gun doesn’t mean those pieces don’t add up to that conclusion potentially.

    As for the date of January 1, you may be right on that, but I do believe that only applies to players on 1 year deals. He’s not on a 1 year deal, and being in the last year of a deal doesn’t qualify as that. And you can only sign an extension in the final year of your current deal.

    And I’ll say this logically.

    Ignoring what I present, do you really want him in the fold for the next 7-8 season at a number like $6.5 million per or better? Can you not see that as something that is potentially disastrous?

    On top of that, all of the media speculation surrounding him, which comes from guys who are way more plugged into the league and it’s teams than we are, should lead you to believe that a deal involving him is more than likely. While it’s true that they may not be dealing him now, it’s hard to see him being here in 6-7 months.
    This is all a logical conclusion based on facts, all of which indicate that keeping him around log-term isn’t really a priority for them and is something they aren’t too likely to do. Negotiation aside, if they had the idea in their head that they’d like to keep him, based on your point of not formally getting his asking price even though they know the range , don’t you think they’d at least ask so that they can maybe maneuver to start getting near a position to be able to do that?

    Now at this point I will agree that they’ve resigned themselves to going into the season with no extension in place, and they will probably just let it ride and wind up revisiting things at a later date.

    But I don’t see how you can say it’s pure speculation. There’s too much clearly apparent stuff that indicates he’s not going to be in Rangerstown for much longer.

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    I was on the "keep Kreider" band wagon up until now. Long-term deal? I'm beginning to face the pro$pect of that likelihood and am beginning to see the light differently. I'd definitely agree with keeping him 2-3 years but he won't sign that deal as he begins to look towards the twilight of his career. He's not at that point now, but the 5th, 6th and 7th year of the deal to keep him a Ranger no longer makes sense to me. I'll miss the speed of his game, but as others have pointed out, his speed alone is not piling up 40-50 goal seasons. I'm not convinced that he won't disappear from 110% effort once he gets paid. CK is one of those enigmas that confounds a fan's logic. (Not inferring anything to the poster using 'logic' in the thread.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by 4EverRangerFrank View Post
    I was on the "keep Kreider" band wagon up until now. Long-term deal? I'm beginning to face the pro$pect of that likelihood and am beginning to see the light differently. I'd definitely agree with keeping him 2-3 years but he won't sign that deal as he begins to look towards the twilight of his career. He's not at that point now, but the 5th, 6th and 7th year of the deal to keep him a Ranger no longer makes sense to me. I'll miss the speed of his game, but as others have pointed out, his speed alone is not piling up 40-50 goal seasons. I'm not convinced that he won't disappear from 110% effort once he gets paid. CK is one of those enigmas that confounds a fan's logic. (Not inferring anything to the poster using 'logic' in the thread.)
    My feelings too

    And actually I think he’ll go elsewhere and really excel for the next few seasons. But then he’ll decline.

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    We can’t invest $7m per for 7 years in another wing. Put Kreider on one of top 2 lines so he gets off to good start. He should be an attractive trade target for a team looking to make a deep run.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tphilly5 View Post
    We can’t invest $7m per for 7 years in another wing. Put Kreider on one of top 2 lines so he gets off to good start. He should be an attractive trade target for a team looking to make a deep run.
    He would definitely be a top target at this deadline, no doubt.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThirtyONE View Post
    He would definitely be a top target at this deadline, no doubt.
    Absolutely he would be.
    I don’t understand why he isn’t a top target now. I’d rather have 82 games of him than 25 and wonder if he’ll find chemistry and be productive in a short time span. And his salary and cap hit aren’t prohibitive. And I don’t think the price of getting him now vs later will be hugely different.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RangersIn7 View Post
    Absolutely he would be.
    I don’t understand why he isn’t a top target now. I’d rather have 82 games of him than 25 and wonder if he’ll find chemistry and be productive in a short time span. And his salary and cap hit aren’t prohibitive. And I don’t think the price of getting him now vs later will be hugely different.
    I don't think there's any reason not to think he's a top target right now. Colorado didn't want him for the 16th overall, and that's fine, it doesn't mean nobody wants him. But the Rangers haven't spoken to him because they can't afford him ATM. No matter what his contract is, they can't afford it. Until the defensive situation is resolved, Kreider is on the back burner.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RangersIn7 View Post
    Just because you choose to ignore or not view these points as evidence that he isn’t in the long-term plan, doesn’t make it so. And that’s aside from the fact that it’s hard to see them finding the kind of money they’ll need to sign him. And not to mention, his contract wouldn’t kick in till next year, when he’s 29, so they’d be paying a guy who isn’t elite into the age 34-36 range, which they shouldn’t do.

    As for not talking numbers, we all have a good idea as to where they’re going to be more or less. Gorton knows roughly what it will cost to keep him around and it’s very likely to be a cost prohibitive number in dollars and term.

    Knowing that, plus his age, plus their cap situation, plus him being made available, plus no negotiation, plus the many articles and comments from the media IS evidence that you base an assertion of him not being in the plan long-term upon. Just because there’s no smoking gun doesn’t mean those pieces don’t add up to that conclusion potentially.

    As for the date of January 1, you may be right on that, but I do believe that only applies to players on 1 year deals. He’s not on a 1 year deal, and being in the last year of a deal doesn’t qualify as that. And you can only sign an extension in the final year of your current deal.
    Sorry dude, but I think you're jumping a step or two to actually draw the conclusion that Kreider isn't in the plan. It's starting to feel that way, and I know there was a single report saying they'd rather have this tidied up before camp, but it's by no means concrete. The team hasn't got a reason to rush this; they've got him under team control for another year. They've got no replacement. They've got no sense of his actual contract demands. They've probably got no true suitors based on current cap realities. And, given the last few months, they may want to see what they've actually got on hand with this team before forcing the issue.

    To say he's a trade target? Last year of the contract, probably on a team that will struggle to get to 80 points, probably up there on the list of most attractive trade pieces on a team with a GM that's not shy to make moves. Very fair.
    To say he's not in the plan? Eh. Need a few more pieces to come into play before that's a fair statement.

    I also don't think it fair to look at the situation as a binary - either part or not. It's almost assuredly based on offers on the table - trade and contract, I reckon - and the team's relative assessment of likelihood of success. Very gray variables.

    And I’ll say this logically.

    Ignoring what I present, do you really want him in the fold for the next 7-8 season at a number like $6.5 million per or better? Can you not see that as something that is potentially disastrous?

    On top of that, all of the media speculation surrounding him, which comes from guys who are way more plugged into the league and it’s teams than we are, should lead you to believe that a deal involving him is more than likely. While it’s true that they may not be dealing him now, it’s hard to see him being here in 6-7 months.
    This is all a logical conclusion based on facts, all of which indicate that keeping him around log-term isn’t really a priority for them and is something they aren’t too likely to do. Negotiation aside, if they had the idea in their head that they’d like to keep him, based on your point of not formally getting his asking price even though they know the range , don’t you think they’d at least ask so that they can maybe maneuver to start getting near a position to be able to do that?

    Now at this point I will agree that they’ve resigned themselves to going into the season with no extension in place, and they will probably just let it ride and wind up revisiting things at a later date.

    But I don’t see how you can say it’s pure speculation. There’s too much clearly apparent stuff that indicates he’s not going to be in Rangerstown for much longer.
    I've been throwing around a hypothetical in my head here - what if he wants less the Anders Lee deal and more the Dustin Brown deal? What if instead of 7/49, it was...8/44? He could still get around 21M in the first three years of the deal, and it would pay him through his age 36 season at a rate that's not too bad. What's a 34/35 year old Chris Kreider like? If he can still get 35 points and be a netfront presence, he's probably still tradeable/serviceable.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RangersIn7 View Post
    Just because you choose to ignore or not view these points as evidence that he isn’t in the long-term plan, doesn’t make it so. And that’s aside from the fact that it’s hard to see them finding the kind of money they’ll need to sign him. And not to mention, his contract wouldn’t kick in till next year, when he’s 29, so they’d be paying a guy who isn’t elite into the age 34-36 range, which they shouldn’t do.

    As for not talking numbers, we all have a good idea as to where they’re going to be more or less. Gorton knows roughly what it will cost to keep him around and it’s very likely to be a cost prohibitive number in dollars and term.

    Knowing that, plus his age, plus their cap situation, plus him being made available, plus no negotiation, plus the many articles and comments from the media IS evidence that you base an assertion of him not being in the plan long-term upon. Just because there’s no smoking gun doesn’t mean those pieces don’t add up to that conclusion potentially.

    As for the date of January 1, you may be right on that, but I do believe that only applies to players on 1 year deals. He’s not on a 1 year deal, and being in the last year of a deal doesn’t qualify as that. And you can only sign an extension in the final year of your current deal.

    And I’ll say this logically.

    Ignoring what I present, do you really want him in the fold for the next 7-8 season at a number like $6.5 million per or better? Can you not see that as something that is potentially disastrous?

    On top of that, all of the media speculation surrounding him, which comes from guys who are way more plugged into the league and it’s teams than we are, should lead you to believe that a deal involving him is more than likely. While it’s true that they may not be dealing him now, it’s hard to see him being here in 6-7 months.
    This is all a logical conclusion based on facts, all of which indicate that keeping him around log-term isn’t really a priority for them and is something they aren’t too likely to do. Negotiation aside, if they had the idea in their head that they’d like to keep him, based on your point of not formally getting his asking price even though they know the range , don’t you think they’d at least ask so that they can maybe maneuver to start getting near a position to be able to do that?

    Now at this point I will agree that they’ve resigned themselves to going into the season with no extension in place, and they will probably just let it ride and wind up revisiting things at a later date.

    But I don’t see how you can say it’s pure speculation. There’s too much clearly apparent stuff that indicates he’s not going to be in Rangerstown for much longer.
    Next year, a lot of money comes off the books, pending any buy outs, they will have almost $21M in cap space next year, with Kreider being the only big contract. Again, they shop players, doesn't mean that they don't see him fitting in with the team. Its more of a cap casualty than not seeing him as a fit for the team, which is my entire argument. And again, he can't sign anything yet, which is why Lundqvist's wasn't official until like December, so teams will take care of the immediate things prior to the start of the season, and that isn't amongst their top things right now. Like I said, there aren't negotiations in the summer for the following year because anything can happen. And also, trading him right now makes no sense, your not getting anything for him at this point, thats why there are very few big trades this time of the year.

    Im saying its pure speculation because no one has sid that he doesn't fit into their plans. If they were actively shopping him, Brooks would have come out with what they are looking for, especially right now, or would have written a piece saying he doesn't fit in with this team, which is untrue because he plays Quins style of play. What is being said is that because of what he will make that its an issue, which is totally different from saying he is being moved because they don't see him as a fit for the team. Do you honestly think that they couldn't get a 2nd plus or possibly 1st rounder for him at the draft if they were actively shopping him?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ThirtyONE View Post
    I don't think there's any reason not to think he's a top target right now. Colorado didn't want him for the 16th overall, and that's fine, it doesn't mean nobody wants him. But the Rangers haven't spoken to him because they can't afford him ATM. No matter what his contract is, they can't afford it. Until the defensive situation is resolved, Kreider is on the back burner.
    Quote Originally Posted by G1000 View Post
    Sorry dude, but I think you're jumping a step or two to actually draw the conclusion that Kreider isn't in the plan. It's starting to feel that way, and I know there was a single report saying they'd rather have this tidied up before camp, but it's by no means concrete. The team hasn't got a reason to rush this; they've got him under team control for another year. They've got no replacement. They've got no sense of his actual contract demands. They've probably got no true suitors based on current cap realities. And, given the last few months, they may want to see what they've actually got on hand with this team before forcing the issue.

    To say he's a trade target? Last year of the contract, probably on a team that will struggle to get to 80 points, probably up there on the list of most attractive trade pieces on a team with a GM that's not shy to make moves. Very fair.
    To say he's not in the plan? Eh. Need a few more pieces to come into play before that's a fair statement.

    I also don't think it fair to look at the situation as a binary - either part or not. It's almost assuredly based on offers on the table - trade and contract, I reckon - and the team's relative assessment of likelihood of success. Very gray variables.



    I've been throwing around a hypothetical in my head here - what if he wants less the Anders Lee deal and more the Dustin Brown deal? What if instead of 7/49, it was...8/44? He could still get around 21M in the first three years of the deal, and it would pay him through his age 36 season at a rate that's not too bad. What's a 34/35 year old Chris Kreider like? If he can still get 35 points and be a netfront presence, he's probably still tradeable/serviceable.

    These two posts are exactly what I have been arguing this entire post. They will have over $20M next summer, pending any buyouts, and Kreider is the only high priced player they would need to sign. They issue is this year if they can't make any moves.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NYR2711 View Post
    These two posts are exactly what I have been arguing this entire post. They will have over $20M next summer, pending any buyouts, and Kreider is the only high priced player they would need to sign. They issue is this year if they can't make any moves.
    Not to be a downer, but they'll have more like $12.5M next summer. Closer to 10 if all bonuses hit, closer to 13 if they don't.
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    Quote Originally Posted by NYR2711 View Post
    Next year, a lot of money comes off the books, pending any buy outs, they will have almost $21M in cap space next year, with Kreider being the only big contract. Again, they shop players, doesn't mean that they don't see him fitting in with the team. Its more of a cap casualty than not seeing him as a fit for the team, which is my entire argument. And again, he can't sign anything yet, which is why Lundqvist's wasn't official until like December, so teams will take care of the immediate things prior to the start of the season, and that isn't amongst their top things right now. Like I said, there aren't negotiations in the summer for the following year because anything can happen. And also, trading him right now makes no sense, your not getting anything for him at this point, thats why there are very few big trades this time of the year.

    Im saying its pure speculation because no one has sid that he doesn't fit into their plans. If they were actively shopping him, Brooks would have come out with what they are looking for, especially right now, or would have written a piece saying he doesn't fit in with this team, which is untrue because he plays Quins style of play. What is being said is that because of what he will make that its an issue, which is totally different from saying he is being moved because they don't see him as a fit for the team. Do you honestly think that they couldn't get a 2nd plus or possibly 1st rounder for him at the draft if they were actively shopping him?
    You’re still ignoring the obvious points on him, and what they really represent.

    They’re not going to say anything publicly regarding his standing or status internally, number 1.
    They tried to trade him number 2. You don’t trade guys if they’re key to your plan. How hard they shopped him is almost irrelevant. If he were really a huge piece of the puzzle in their minds, they wouldn’t consider it.

    And the biggest one. Number 3. The fact that they haven’t made any attempt to negotiate.

    What’s the biggest indication that a guy isn’t really a huge piece for you moving forward when he’s coming up on needing a new contract?
    I’d say it’s not pursuing him with a new contract.

    And it has nothing to do with them not wanting him.
    It’s economic. I’ve agreed with you that it’s about the investment they’d have to make.

    If you feel it’s speculation, that’s fine. It’s all speculation if we don’t know for sure which almost never happens. But the indicators are all there. It’s a reasonable conclusion that he’s more likely at this point to be dealt than extended. And it’s not based on nothing.

    I also agree at this point that it appears they’ve changed their previously stated position on him in that they now seem comfortable with going into the season without a contract extension in place and that they will probably not deal him now.

    But I think come deadline time in February, he’s a goner. And it could still happen before then.

  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by RangersIn7 View Post
    My feelings too

    And actually I think he’ll go elsewhere and really excel for the next few seasons. But then he’ll decline.
    Not sure why you feel so strongly that he's going to decline quickly. Net front guys don't always decline like that... Even guys that played in more a physical era showed that they could still score, like Kreider, in front of the net in their early to mid 30's. Holmstrom, Pavelski, LeClair, Ciccarelli...all those guys did it and all did most of their damage right in front of the net.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RangersIn7 View Post
    You’re still ignoring the obvious points on him, and what they really represent.

    They’re not going to say anything publicly regarding his standing or status internally, number 1.
    They tried to trade him number 2. You don’t trade guys if they’re key to your plan. How hard they shopped him is almost irrelevant. If he were really a huge piece of the puzzle in their minds, they wouldn’t consider it.

    And the biggest one. Number 3. The fact that they haven’t made any attempt to negotiate.

    What’s the biggest indication that a guy isn’t really a huge piece for you moving forward when he’s coming up on needing a new contract?
    I’d say it’s not pursuing him with a new contract.

    And it has nothing to do with them not wanting him.
    It’s economic. I’ve agreed with you that it’s about the investment they’d have to make.

    If you feel it’s speculation, that’s fine. It’s all speculation if we don’t know for sure which almost never happens. But the indicators are all there. It’s a reasonable conclusion that he’s more likely at this point to be dealt than extended. And it’s not based on nothing.

    I also agree at this point that it appears they’ve changed their previously stated position on him in that they now seem comfortable with going into the season without a contract extension in place and that they will probably not deal him now.

    But I think come deadline time in February, he’s a goner. And it could still happen before then.
    I'll give you an alternate scenario: with Panarin and Trouba in the fold, tying up the Kreider deal is simply not a priority over getting the cap worked out. It's not as if even the worst comparables we've seen couldn't fit under the 2020-21 cap.
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