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Thread: Why Kevin Shattenkirk Will Soon be Rangers Salary-Cap Casualty

  1. #21
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    Here’s more indication that he’s not in the plan

    https://www.thescore.com/nhl/news/18...ssed-extension

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    Quote Originally Posted by josh View Post
    Regardless. Can’t justify that devastating 2nd year cap hit.

    If management resorts to this, they are extremely overrated
    I don't think it's that black and white. I'm sure they're wanting to trade Shattenkirk. If it's true that literally no one wants him, even for free, then what else are they supposed to do?

    In a summer where literally everything has gone perfectly, I think it's sounding a little spoiled to say management is "overrated" if a single thing doesn't go according to plan.
    GORTON 2020

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gravesy View Post
    They tried to trade him at the draft. How's that for indication he's not part of their plans?
    The reason you move him is because you're not going to resign him to a 7x7 contract or somewhere in that neighborhood. If they were considering that there's no way they try to flip him at the draft imo.
    That being said, I'm starting to think they're struggling to find a buyer and it's quite possible they'll have to wait for the deadline.
    So because he wasn’t moved at the draft, that means that no one wants him? What were the offers for him? And I guess we will ignore the fact that Gorton said they like him and want to keep him here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RangersIn7 View Post
    Here’s more indication that he’s not in the plan

    https://www.thescore.com/nhl/news/18...ssed-extension
    You do know that they can’t extend him yet, right? So they aren’t going to start negotiations now with his agent.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NYR2711 View Post
    So because he wasn’t moved at the draft, that means that no one wants him? What were the offers for him? And I guess we will ignore the fact that Gorton said they like him and want to keep him here.
    Gorton has to say that dude.
    What’s he going to say? “We don’t like him much. We aren’t intending to keep him.”
    How would that help him get a good return?
    How would that look to other players on the team or prospective players he’d like to add down the road?

    How did everyone knowing that Trouba wasn’t going to stay in Winnipeg and that he wanted out help Winnipeg get a return?


    There are plenty of teams that would want him. The Rangers just want a price for him. They may not have that price yet. Or they may have an offer they like, and they’re waiting cause maybe they feel they can do better.

    People want him. Make no mistake. They just maybe can’t or won’t meet the price. Or they want to wait and see if something better comes along.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NYR2711 View Post
    So because he wasn’t moved at the draft, that means that no one wants him? What were the offers for him? And I guess we will ignore the fact that Gorton said they like him and want to keep him here.
    I don’t understand what point you’re trying to make here.
    I said the fact they tried to move him at the draft is an indication he’s not in their long term plans.
    I’m sure plenty of teams want him, but there aren’t many potential trade partners with cap space at the moment.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gravesy View Post
    I don’t understand what point you’re trying to make here.
    I said the fact they tried to move him at the draft is an indication he’s not in their long term plans.
    I’m sure plenty of teams want him, but there aren’t many potential trade partners with cap space at the moment.
    And Rangers in 7 is saying that the team doesn’t want him, and I am asking where he is getting it from. They aren’t going move him because they don’t want him, if they move him, it’s a salary cap issue, not that they want to because he doesn’t like him. It’s the same issue it was with Stefan and Hayes. But Gorton has come out saying if they can work something out, they would like to keep him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NYR2711 View Post
    And Rangers in 7 is saying that the team doesn’t want him, and I am asking where he is getting it from. They aren’t going move him because they don’t want him, if they move him, it’s a salary cap issue, not that they want to because he doesn’t like him. It’s the same issue it was with Stefan and Hayes. But Gorton has come out saying if they can work something out, they would like to keep him.
    I never said at all that they don’t want him. I said that he’s not in their plans because they don’t want to pay him.
    That’s all.
    If you want to treat that as a cap issue, ok. That’s fine.
    I’ve said repeatedly that they like him cause I’m sure they do.
    But they don’t want to pay him.

    And if he’s asking for what he likely is asking for, they shouldn’t pay him.

    And when they traded Stepan, he was already under contract. He got moved because his NMC was about to kick in and they didn’t want to be tied to him

    And again, I’m getting it from 3 places:
    1) He has no extension and they haven’t even discussed one.
    2) They’ve already attempted to trade him.
    3) The significant number of articles and interviews published discussing his potential trade
    Last edited by RangersIn7; 07-28-2019 at 05:00 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RangersIn7 View Post
    Gorton has to say that dude.
    What’s he going to say? “We don’t like him much. We aren’t intending to keep him.”
    How would that help him get a good return?
    How would that look to other players on the team or prospective players he’d like to add down the road?

    How did everyone knowing that Trouba wasn’t going to stay in Winnipeg and that he wanted out help Winnipeg get a return?

    There are plenty of teams that would want him. The Rangers just want a price for him. They may not have that price yet. Or they may have an offer they like, and they’re waiting cause maybe they feel they can do better.

    People want him. Make no mistake. They just maybe can’t or won’t meet the price. Or they want to wait and see if something better comes along.
    Gorton doesn’t have to say shit. He doesn’t have to answer at all about what’s going on with Kreider. If they were actively shopping him, we would have heard from someone what they asking for, and no one has reported it. He hasn’t demanded a traded, so this is nothing like Trouba, in fact they are very different. The team doesn’t have to move him either, but like any player, if a good deal is offered, they will take it, doesn’t mean they don’t want him like you are saying.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RangersIn7 View Post
    I never said at all that they don’t want him. I said that he’s not in their plans because they don’t want to pay him.
    Saying he is t a part of their plans, is saying it. They aren’t actively shopping him. And where has anyone in the team said that they don’t want to pay him? You assuming a lot here with zero facts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NYR2711 View Post
    Gorton doesn’t have to say shit. He doesn’t have to answer at all about what’s going on with Kreider. If they were actively shopping him, we would have heard from someone what they asking for, and no one has reported it. He hasn’t demanded a traded, so this is nothing like Trouba, in fact they are very different. The team doesn’t have to move him either, but like any player, if a good deal is offered, they will take it, doesn’t mean they don’t want him like you are saying.
    He does have to say something if he’s asked about it. Which he was. Him saying we’d like to work something out is what anyone would expect him to say.

    He’s not going to say anything else that might tip his hand.
    And we wouldn’t have heard from other teams. They can’t comment about guys they’ve tried to acquire or would like to acquire that are under contract with other teams.
    People have reported it.
    It’s been out there on a few different outlets that Colorado absolutely wanted him, just didn’t want to meet the price.


    I never said they don’t want the guy.

    I said just the opposite
    Go back to post # 18 of this very thread and read the last paragraph.

    Saying he isn’t part of their plans is not the same as them not wanting him.
    It’s pretty clear they don’t want to pay him. And they aren’t going to say that publicly either.
    Since when do teams and GM’s put their internal assessments and intentions regarding their own players out in public?
    That’s what’s fucking bad for business.

    My assumption is based on facts.
    No extension or negotiations regarding an extension is a fact.
    The attempted trade at the draft is a fact
    The numerous reports by media outlets of them trying to trade him and listening to offers that he’s available, actively shopped or not. These are facts.

    But again, I’ll say it.

    THEYD LOVE TO KEEP HIM. BUT NOT AT HIS ASKING PRICE

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    Quote Originally Posted by RangersIn7 View Post
    He does have to say something if he’s asked about it. Which he was. Him saying we’d like to work something out is what anyone would expect him to say.

    He’s not going to say anything else that might tip his hand.
    And we wouldn’t have heard from other teams. They can’t comment about guys they’ve tried to acquire or would like to acquire that are under contract with other teams.
    People have reported it.
    It’s been out there on a few different outlets that Colorado absolutely wanted him, just didn’t want to meet the price.


    I never said they don’t want the guy.

    I said just the opposite
    Go back to post # 18 of this very thread and read the last paragraph.

    Saying he isn’t part of their plans is not the same as them not wanting him.
    It’s pretty clear they don’t want to pay him. And they aren’t going to say that publicly either.
    Since when do teams and GM’s put their internal assessments and intentions regarding their own players out in public?
    That’s what’s fucking bad for business.

    My assumption is based on facts.
    No extension or negotiations regarding an extension is a fact.
    The attempted trade at the draft is a fact
    The numerous reports by media outlets of them trying to trade him and listening to offers that he’s available, actively shopped or not. These are facts.

    But again, I’ll say it.

    THEYD LOVE TO KEEP HIM. BUT NOT AT HIS ASKING PRICE
    Again, there are no negotiations going on, so he has no asking price yet. No one knows how much he is asking for. And like I said earlier, there are no negotiations going on because neither side can sign yet, so why negotiate anything? Doesn’t mean that because there are no negotiations that it means they are looking to trade him. They weren’t pushing that hard at the draft to trade him, nor are there any now. There is talk that he might be moved, but there is still nothing concrete that they have been made any offers or are listening to any offers. Again, like any player, anyone can be moved, we’ve seen it before here. You jumping to conclusions here when there really is not that much going on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NYR2711 View Post
    Again, there are no negotiations going on, so he has no asking price yet. No one knows how much he is asking for. And like I said earlier, there are no negotiations going on because neither side can sign yet, so why negotiate anything? Doesn’t mean that because there are no negotiations that it means they are looking to trade him. They weren’t pushing that hard at the draft to trade him, nor are there any now. There is talk that he might be moved, but there is still nothing concrete that they have been made any offers or are listening to any offers. Again, like any player, anyone can be moved, we’ve seen it before here. You jumping to conclusions here when there really is not that much going on.

    Do you think that they don’t have a good idea of his ask in both dollars and term just because a formal negotiation hasn’t occurred?
    As for having to wait, he’s in the last year of his deal, so I’m pretty sure he can sign whenever. Unless I’m wrong, only on a 1year deal does the January 1st date apply, if that’s what you’re referring to.

    And if you’re saying they weren’t pushing that hard at the draft, how do you know that? And define “pushing hard.”
    If he had conversations with 5 teams would that be pushing hard?
    Or would it have to be 10?

    It’s not speculation

    It’s deductive reasoning

    Arriving at a conclusion that Kreider is a likely candidate to be moved based on him entering the final year of his contract, will likely want more than they can afford, will likely want to get paid till he’s 35+, has had no negotiation as of yet, they’ve already attempted to trade him, and the numerous articles about the topic is the likely conclusion you arrive at. That isn’t speculation. It’s logic.

    And this is a fan forum. We’re supposed to do that.

    Is it that you feel I’m speculating?
    Or that I say they “don’t want him”?
    Or do you love Kreider and not want to accept that it’s at least fairly likely he’s not here any more in the foreseeable future?

    He’s gotta be looking at what Hayes got a d shoot close to that. Even at a discount it’s still gonna be $40 million
    Still too much.

    He’s a good player. But he’s replaceable
    I don’t understand why it’s a thing for some fans of his that we try desperately to keep him. Even if he does go elsewhere and thrive, which I believe could happen, what does it cost.
    He’s not the future of this team.
    Others are.
    Make room for them

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    I'm not sure I fully "get" what's going on in this thread.

    1. I think it's reasonably clear that a move has to be made here. Buch signed at a very specific time; this was not accidental. Either Gorton's got a trade lined up to clear space, or he's moving on a buyout.
    2. I think it's also pretty fair to say that there's not a trade market on Smith or Staal, and possibly not even on Namestnikov. That's unfortunate, but probably a reality we're going to deal with.
    3. If you're a team interested in Shattenkirk, and you knew those two bits of info (which at this point are either public facing or pretty solid speculation), would you actually trade for Shattenkirk? He can cost you an asset and $3.25m/y or he can come in on a 1y/2m "prove it" deal. Which do you prefer if you're any of the other 30 GMs?
    4. Selling on Kreider right now is frankly, insane. If you want to move him after the cap settles, fine, but he's a premium enough piece to fetch much more than cap space, especially at the deadline.

    Now, if you're talking about buyout options, Shattenkirk is the silver bullet move too. He's the best of the three defenders being discussed, but he's also the most cap relief. Fie on the big hit for next year. It's a grow year where the only valuable asset we've got in need of a contract is Kreider, who, depending on the year, doesn't even end the season with us. Even with the buyout and heavy bonuses, we'd go into the FA period with some 10m in space to deal with Nieves, Strome, and Georgiev, of whom only Georgiev likely stays. All of that ugly cap is gone when we need to give the money to key players.

    Finally, history should show us that being the team to sign Kreider is going to end poorly. Any of you want Andrew Ladd, Kyle Okposo, David Backes, Milan Lucic, Dustin Penner? Much as we love him, history has not been kind to players like him. Father Time catches those big wings fast.
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    Quote Originally Posted by G1000 View Post
    I'm not sure I fully "get" what's going on in this thread.

    1. I think it's reasonably clear that a move has to be made here. Buch signed at a very specific time; this was not accidental. Either Gorton's got a trade lined up to clear space, or he's moving on a buyout.
    2. I think it's also pretty fair to say that there's not a trade market on Smith or Staal, and possibly not even on Namestnikov. That's unfortunate, but probably a reality we're going to deal with.
    3. If you're a team interested in Shattenkirk, and you knew those two bits of info (which at this point are either public facing or pretty solid speculation), would you actually trade for Shattenkirk? He can cost you an asset and $3.25m/y or he can come in on a 1y/2m "prove it" deal. Which do you prefer if you're any of the other 30 GMs?
    4. Selling on Kreider right now is frankly, insane. If you want to move him after the cap settles, fine, but he's a premium enough piece to fetch much more than cap space, especially at the deadline.

    Now, if you're talking about buyout options, Shattenkirk is the silver bullet move too. He's the best of the three defenders being discussed, but he's also the most cap relief. Fie on the big hit for next year. It's a grow year where the only valuable asset we've got in need of a contract is Kreider, who, depending on the year, doesn't even end the season with us. Even with the buyout and heavy bonuses, we'd go into the FA period with some 10m in space to deal with Nieves, Strome, and Georgiev, of whom only Georgiev likely stays. All of that ugly cap is gone when we need to give the money to key players.

    Finally, history should show us that being the team to sign Kreider is going to end poorly. Any of you want Andrew Ladd, Kyle Okposo, David Backes, Milan Lucic, Dustin Penner? Much as we love him, history has not been kind to players like him. Father Time catches those big wings fast.
    My point is simply that Kreider seems not to be in the plan and they might as well move him. Doing so sooner gives the team more time with Kreider and this should get you more in return. I’m not advocating trading him simply for cap space. Nor am I say they should get nothing for him.
    I’m advocating trading him because it looks like they aren’t going to pay him, so they should get something for him.
    More importantly, they shouldn’t be the team to pay him. And if they take a little less for him, it’s not a disaster. His trade isn’t key to the rebuild.

    We can dream about him taking a discount and asking for less years. But realistically, he saw what his buddy Hayes got. He’s capable of getting that simply because Hayes did. He’d be a fool not to pursue something like that. And some other fool will give it to him. It just shouldn’t be us

    And mind you, I honestly believe that if he got traded tomorrow and we t and played with a really elite couple of players, his next 2-4 seasons would potentially be awesome and he’d become the player we all hoped he’d be .

    But I’m ok with him being that for someone else for a few years as long as we don’t have to pay him till 2028. Cause he won’t be worth what he’s going to be making by 2024.

    I say move on
    Not because I don’t like him
    But because he isn’t the future.

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    So why is kreider a lock to be awful four five years from now but panarin will be fine? I’m just not sure I get the logic. Lucic bakes okposo etc are not kreider. He skates so much better then them. I’m not sure I want to sign him either. However I don’t get why anyone thinks he can’t be the player he is now four years from now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fatfrancesa View Post
    So why is kreider a lock to be awful four five years from now but panarin will be fine? I’m just not sure I get the logic. Lucic bakes okposo etc are not kreider. He skates so much better then them. I’m not sure I want to sign him either. However I don’t get why anyone thinks he can’t be the player he is now four years from now.
    It’s just unlikely. Most would call Kreider a power forward. They’ll cite his skating, but they’ll also cite his net front presence. How many guys that play that way age well? Power forwards just don’t

    It’s uncertain with Panarin too. But given his elite skill level, you’re more willing to gamble

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    Quote Originally Posted by RangersIn7 View Post
    It’s just unlikely. Most would call Kreider a power forward. They’ll cite his skating, but they’ll also cite his net front presence. How many guys that play that way age well? Power forwards just don’t

    It’s uncertain with Panarin too. But given his elite skill level, you’re more willing to gamble
    There both gambles I agree. Kreider skates better than any of the power forwards people mentioned. In fact he skates better than most finesse skilled players or any players in the league. That is a big trump card in his favor. His skating is never going to be bad or even average. Everyone of those other failed guys lost a step and was then too slow to play effectively. That will never be kreiders problem unless he suffers a catastrophic injury.

    As far as gambles one costs you double the money than the other. It’s hardly the better gamble because of that. I think the argument to not signing kreider is sound but it’s thd same argument to avoiding panarin. Risk

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fatfrancesa View Post
    There both gambles I agree. Kreider skates better than any of the power forwards people mentioned. In fact he skates better than most finesse skilled players or any players in the league. That is a big trump card in his favor. His skating is never going to be bad or even average. Everyone of those other failed guys lost a step and was then too slow to play effectively. That will never be kreiders problem unless he suffers a catastrophic injury.

    As far as gambles one costs you double the money than the other. It’s hardly the better gamble because of that. I think the argument to not signing kreider is sound but it’s thd same argument to avoiding panarin. Risk
    I get that
    And Kreider does skate so well, and while that can help as he ages, eventually he will lose steps. At least that’s how I feel.

    As for Panarin, I understand why anyone would have apprehension given the money and term. But the high skill guys have the best chance of aging well, and he’s undeniably that
    I don’t think he’s great for 7 years. But I think they get 5.

    Risk either way. But Panarin’s high-end is so much more the CK.

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    package Lias Anderson and a draft pick for someone to take Shattenkirk

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