[brooks] Why Kevin Shattenkirk Will Soon be Rangers Salary-Cap Casualty

Being willing to part with a player and including a player in your plan are two different things. .

 

In general, yes.

Not so much when you're about to enter into negotiations with said player over the contract of his life.

No, sorry. I don't buy that at all. I think a lot of fans think that way, but I don't think the FO are having those thoughts.

I could be wrong of course.

 

They added a #1 wing and a #1 defender - in their eyes, anyway (not getting into that debate). They also added two of the top 10 prospects not in the NHL in Kakko and Fox, and brought over Kravtsov and Rykov. I don't think it's outlandish to think keeping Kreider at this moment has a lot to do with figuring out how he fits on the team.

 

Heck, what happens if they're wrong? They sell in February, get another 1st and a prospect? IMO, the worst outcome here is an 8x6.5+ deal, and that's unlikely, I think. Let them believe a little.

Being willing to part with a player and including a player in your plan are two different things. .

 

Are you normally willing to part with a guy who is clearly in your plan?

And do so in a futures deal, where you’re getting back pick/prospect type of return?

They added a #1 wing and a #1 defender - in their eyes, anyway (not getting into that debate). They also added two of the top 10 prospects not in the NHL in Kakko and Fox, and brought over Kravtsov and Rykov. I don't think it's outlandish to think keeping Kreider at this moment has a lot to do with figuring out how he fits on the team.

 

Heck, what happens if they're wrong? They sell in February, get another 1st and a prospect? IMO, the worst outcome here is an 8x6.5+ deal, and that's unlikely, I think. Let them believe a little.

Welli agree with that. But when I say "not part of their plan" that means "not going to resign for 7+ years". They may very well keep him around until the deadline.

Are you normally willing to part with a guy who is clearly in your plan?

And do so in a futures deal, where you’re getting back pick/prospect type of return?

 

Depends on the deal, no?

 

The Rangers probably had eyes for Peyton Krebs with that deal. If one of the top forwards in a relatively well-liked draft is on the other end of the deal, you change your plan. That's the general idea.

Welli agree with that. But when I say "not part of their plan" that means "not going to resign for 7+ years". They may very well keep him around until the deadline.

 

I'm certain that Kreider is part of at least one of the Rangers' plans. Whether he wants to be a part of that plan re: career goals, term, cash, etc...is another story.

 

And yeah - it's also probably better to hold on to the TDL if you're thinking no deal is possible/might be difficult. Who's got the cap for a 4.5M player right now?

I'm certain that Kreider is part of at least one of the Rangers' plans. Whether he wants to be a part of that plan re: career goals, term, cash, etc...is another story.

 

And yeah - it's also probably better to hold on to the TDL if you're thinking no deal is possible/might be difficult. Who's got the cap for a 4.5M player right now?

 

I’m simply saying that his likely contract demands put him outside of the plan. I know they like him. I believe he likes it here.

 

But he’d likely have to leave a lot of money and the like in the table to stay here, and I don’t see that happening cause it so seldom does.

 

And I’ve said long-term, meaning beyond this year, all along

Totally possible they keep him around for now

You?re still ignoring the obvious points on him, and what they really represent.

 

They?re not going to say anything publicly regarding his standing or status internally, number 1.

They tried to trade him number 2. You don?t trade guys if they?re key to your plan. How hard they shopped him is almost irrelevant. If he were really a huge piece of the puzzle in their minds, they wouldn?t consider it.

 

And the biggest one. Number 3. The fact that they haven?t made any attempt to negotiate.

 

What?s the biggest indication that a guy isn?t really a huge piece for you moving forward when he?s coming up on needing a new contract?

I?d say it?s not pursuing him with a new contract.

 

And it has nothing to do with them not wanting him.

It?s economic. I?ve agreed with you that it?s about the investment they?d have to make.

 

If you feel it?s speculation, that?s fine. It?s all speculation if we don?t know for sure which almost never happens. But the indicators are all there. It?s a reasonable conclusion that he?s more likely at this point to be dealt than extended. And it?s not based on nothing.

 

I also agree at this point that it appears they?ve changed their previously stated position on him in that they now seem comfortable with going into the season without a contract extension in place and that they will probably not deal him now.

 

But I think come deadline time in February, he?s a goner. And it could still happen before then.

 

Why are you so hung up on the negotiations? How many players sign extensions with a year left on a contract before UFA? Most players don?t sign this early, and like it?s been said numerous times I this thread, they have a ton of other things to do before starting negotiations with him.

I’m simply saying that his likely contract demands put him outside of the plan. I know they like him. I believe he likes it here.

 

But he’d likely have to leave a lot of money and the like in the table to stay here, and I don’t see that happening cause it so seldom does.

 

And I’ve said long-term, meaning beyond this year, all along

Totally possible they keep him around for now

 

Again, this is speculation on your part, which is fine, but your passing this off as if it’s fact, and it’s not.

Why are you so hung up on the negotiations? How many players sign extensions with a year left on a contract before UFA? Most players don’t sign this early, and like it’s been said numerous times I this thread, they have a ton of other things to do before starting negotiations with him.

 

Again, this is speculation on your part, which is fine, but your passing this off as if it’s fact, and it’s not.

 

Ok, let me ask you this.

 

What do you think he’s going to ask for, reasonably, in terms of years and money?

Even if he is willing to take a discount, how much of a discount in terms of years and money?

 

I’m asking honestly cause I’m curious what you’re actually thinking.

 

I’ll also ask, if you were him, and you knew that they attempted to trade you 35 days ago, they haven’t called your agent to even inquire about your next contract, and you’re reading all the articles and hearing all the chatter, and they just spent all this money on 2 guys outside of the organization for the long-term, and you know their cap situation, would you feel like you were firmly in the plans beyond your current contract?

 

To what Gravesy said.

 

They tried to trade him. Then a month later, they’re going to move towards paying him? But they haven’t talked to your agent? That says a lot.

 

I agree that if he goes it’s cause of financial reasons.

You dropped the idea finally that I said “they didn’t want him”, which I never said.

 

So where are you really at on this guy, given the indicators?

 

It’s a fact they haven’t talked to his agent. It’s a fact they tried to trade him. It’s a fact they are in a cap crunch and that at present they really can’t afford him. It’s a fact that he’s in a $6.5-7 million per year market. It’s a fact he’s looking for a long-term (meaning at least 4 years, more like 5-7) extension cause he said as much in February and then again in March, and then again in June.

 

These are all facts.

 

Thinking he might take a discount is speculation

almost 5pm.

Ok, let me ask you this.

 

What do you think he’s going to ask for, reasonably, in terms of years and money?

Even if he is willing to take a discount, how much of a discount in terms of years and money?

 

I’m asking honestly cause I’m curious what you’re actually thinking.

 

I’ll also ask, if you were him, and you knew that they attempted to trade you 35 days ago, they haven’t called your agent to even inquire about your next contract, and you’re reading all the articles and hearing all the chatter, and they just spent all this money on 2 guys outside of the organization for the long-term, and you know their cap situation, would you feel like you were firmly in the plans beyond your current contract?

 

To what Gravesy said.

 

They tried to trade him. Then a month later, they’re going to move towards paying him? But they haven’t talked to your agent? That says a lot.

 

I agree that if he goes it’s cause of financial reasons.

You dropped the idea finally that I said “they didn’t want him”, which I never said.

 

So where are you really at on this guy, given the indicators?

 

It’s a fact they haven’t talked to his agent. It’s a fact they tried to trade him. It’s a fact they are in a cap crunch and that at present they really can’t afford him. It’s a fact that he’s in a $6.5-7 million per year market. It’s a fact he’s looking for a long-term (meaning at least 4 years, more like 5-7) extension cause he said as much in February and then again in March, and then again in June.

 

These are all facts.

 

Thinking he might take a discount is speculation

 

I never said he was taking a discount, and I don't know what he wants, just like you don't know what he wants, the Rangers don't know what he wants, and he doesn't know what the Rangers are going to offer him. For the 10th time, its way to early for his agent to talk with the Rangers.

 

Sports is a business, so Im sure he was fine with the fact that they made him available. Lots of teams make players available, and players stay. Players know this is part of the business.

 

You are speculating that because his agent hasn't talked to the Rangers, that means he doesn't fit in their plans and that they are trading him 100%, when in fact, that doesn't mean anything. Even others have told you that the Rangers have other things to deal with right now than talking to a players agent who still has a year on his contract left.

 

Saying he is gone simply because his agent didn't meet with the Rangers is speculation, its not fact. Its jumping the gun.

I never said he was taking a discount, and I don't know what he wants, just like you don't know what he wants, the Rangers don't know what he wants, and he doesn't know what the Rangers are going to offer him. For the 10th time, its way to early for his agent to talk with the Rangers.

 

Sports is a business, so Im sure he was fine with the fact that they made him available. Lots of teams make players available, and players stay. Players know this is part of the business.

 

You are speculating that because his agent hasn't talked to the Rangers, that means he doesn't fit in their plans and that they are trading him 100%, when in fact, that doesn't mean anything. Even others have told you that the Rangers have other things to deal with right now than talking to a players agent who still has a year on his contract left.

 

Saying he is gone simply because his agent didn't meet with the Rangers is speculation, its not fact. Its jumping the gun.

 

I’m aware of the fact that they have other things going on.

I just don’t feel that they’re so serious this the create this impossible multitask which precludes them from also touching base with Kreiders agent. And it’s not way too early. Especially when you consider that they’ve previously said they wanted this resolved before camp, and even if they have moved away from that, they haven’t actually said that, and you seem caught up on what’s said vs what certain actions represent. He can sign anytime. They don’t need to wait on him. And they didn’t like the distractions with Hayes and Zuccarello last year.

 

They have to figure out their cap, which has only so many solutions, and get 2 RFA’s under contract, who will likely play for the QO that they get.

 

That’s it.

 

It’s not, we have to land the space shuttle while simultaneously repairing a nuclear reactor that’s on the verge of meltdown.

 

As for not knowing, yeah fine.

 

But we know what his market is. We know he’s looking for a long-term deal. It’s easy to put 2 and 2 together and see likely where this lands.

 

And I’m saying they’re trading him at some point because of a multitude of factors, not simply because they haven’t discussed an extension, which is one of those factors.

 

I didn’t ask you what you knew. I asked you what you thought. Clearly you have an opinion and you’re intelligent.

 

Based off what we do know at this point and what we can logically deduce off of that, do you think he’s more or less likely to be on this team in 6-7 months?

I’m aware of the fact that they have other things going on.

I just don’t feel that they’re so serious this the create this impossible multitask which precludes them from also touching base with Kreiders agent. And it’s not way too early. Especially when you consider that they’ve previously said they wanted this resolved before camp, and even if they have moved away from that, they haven’t actually said that, and you seem caught up on what’s said vs what certain actions represent. He can sign anytime. They don’t need to wait on him. And they didn’t like the distractions with Hayes and Zuccarello last year.

 

They have to figure out their cap, which has only so many solutions, and get 2 RFA’s under contract, who will likely play for the QO that they get.

 

That’s it.

 

It’s not, we have to land the space shuttle while simultaneously repairing a nuclear reactor that’s on the verge of meltdown.

 

As for not knowing, yeah fine.

 

But we know what his market is. We know he’s looking for a long-term deal. It’s easy to put 2 and 2 together and see likely where this lands.

 

And I’m saying they’re trading him at some point because of a multitude of factors, not simply because they haven’t discussed an extension, which is one of those factors.

 

I didn’t ask you what you knew. I asked you what you thought. Clearly you have an opinion and you’re intelligent.

 

Based off what we do know at this point and what we can logically deduce off of that, do you think he’s more or less likely to be on this team in 6-7 months?

 

I would love to have him still here in 6-7 months. If they can negotiate a deal like Brock Nelson or Jordan Eberle got, I would be fun with that. But if he costs too much, then they have to move him. But again, just because he isn’t talking to the team, doesn’t mean that they are going to move him. Your fixated that if teams and players don’t talk a year out, that means the player is gone. Most players don’t negotiate the summer before because it doesn’t benefit either side to do it. And Hayes and Zucchini weren’t distractions all season because of their contract situations, I have no idea where your pulling that from.

 

We are going in circles here, so let’s agree to disagree.

I would love to have him still here in 6-7 months. If they can negotiate a deal like Brock Nelson or Jordan Eberle got, I would be fun with that. But if he costs too much, then they have to move him. But again, just because he isn’t talking to the team, doesn’t mean that they are going to move him. Your fixated that if teams and players don’t talk a year out, that means the player is gone. Most players don’t negotiate the summer before because it doesn’t benefit either side to do it. And Hayes and Zucchini weren’t distractions all season because of their contract situations, I have no idea where your pulling that from.

 

We are going in circles here, so let’s agree to disagree.

 

Fair enough

 

I wouldn’t mind him here too on the right deal, but I don’t see it happening.

 

And it’s not just because of the lack of negotiation.

But we’ve been over this already

 

Bottom line is given everything I can’t see any circumstances changing enough to where they keep him

Does anyone think Kreider might get traded?

Does anyone think Kreider might get traded?

 

I think I’m in that camp, lol

 

Can’t tell if this is a serious question

 

Looks like it’s not going to be now at least

It's pretty clear that he's going to be traded, but I think Gorton is wise enough to not do it when the return is unreasonably low, as it now seems to be. I know no one wants a repeat of the in season upheaval from the past two years, but many or even most teams have prospective UFAs on their rosters. The Blue Jackets sure played some good hockey with three of their best players effectively in the chute. If we go into the season with Kreider on the roster, many different things could happen. We might get better offers than we have been getting; we might end up swinging deals that free up cap space to sign him; someone could go on long term IR. It's best to play it cool rather than accept a low return now. If nothing happens to make signing him more plausible, he should bring what Hayes or Nash did at the deadline the past two years.

I think I?m in that camp, lol

 

Can?t tell if this is a serious question

 

Looks like it?s not going to be now at least

I was just being a sarcastic ass. It was a good debate. All the points either way were good. The trade scenarios may have gotton an edge in my opinion. But it's the summer so throw em at the wall and see what sticks.

It's pretty clear that he's going to be traded, but I think Gorton is wise enough to not do it when the return is unreasonably low, as it now seems to be. I know no one wants a repeat of the in season upheaval from the past two years, but many or even most teams have prospective UFAs on their rosters. The Blue Jackets sure played some good hockey with three of their best players effectively in the chute. If we go into the season with Kreider on the roster, many different things could happen. We might get better offers than we have been getting; we might end up swinging deals that free up cap space to sign him; someone could go on long term IR. It's best to play it cool rather than accept a low return now. If nothing happens to make signing him more plausible, he should bring what Hayes or Nash did at the deadline the past two years.

If here this season, Kreider is going to play his ass off - whether to fight for a future spot or get that $7m as a UFA. Should make it all pretty interesting.

 

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Why are you so hung up on the negotiations? How many players sign extensions with a year left on a contract before UFA? Most players don’t sign this early, and like it’s been said numerous times I this thread, they have a ton of other things to do before starting negotiations with him.

 

All we have is speculation at this point. We don’t know what it is, but the decision on Kreider has already been made. Whether he stays or goes won’t be a matter of negotiations or discounts. All signs certainly point to him being gone. It really doesn’t make sense to make a big financial commitment to another wing.

If Smith, we should hear at noon - unconditional waivers for buyout

If Shattenkirk, we will hear at 5pm - NMC, probably declined waivers, 24hrs later is at 5pm tonight.

If Smith, we should hear at noon - unconditional waivers for buyout

If Shattenkirk, we will hear at 5pm - NMC, probably declined waivers, 24hrs later is at 5pm tonight.

 

I thought the deadline was tomorrow?

Our defensive logjam is about to be solved.

Know I'm in the minority, but think it would be better to buy out Staal. Shattenkirk has been hurt almost his whole tenure here. ENtirely plausible he could be a decent 2nd pair D/PP point, and either contribute or become trade bait. Guys like him move at the deadline every season; even if you do not like him as player here, somebody will take a chance on him in February.Right now every team is optimistic about their talent, but that changes during the season. His defense is no worse than Staal's. Think in part Staal gets sold as decent because Sam and Joe talked him up with their MSG pop poms at every turn. Staal's okay defensively on his best night, not physical at all and gives you nothing at all offensively. Staal has no value, Shattenkirk will have some value even if you wind up eating some contract.

 

Smith is a goner. No idea what the hell happend to him. He and Skej were a great pair right after he got here. Some players get stupid pills with a big contract, he is one.