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Thread: Even with Retention, "No Interest" in Shattenkirk or Smith on Trade Market

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    Quote Originally Posted by G1000 View Post
    I'm hot taking here - this UFA D market is hot flaming garbage, and the second Myers gets his deal, the phone's gonna start ringing for Shattenkirk.

    Shattenkirk at 2y/4m is way fucking better than anything on that market.
    No it's not. You can get the same quality defensemen for 1/4 the price. Claesson is a better player.

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    Quote Originally Posted by josh View Post
    Jimmy Vesey, genius
    Jeez, this one hit my funny bone.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Future View Post
    No it's not. You can get the same quality defensemen for 1/4 the price. Claesson is a better player.
    Freddie Claesson is a perfectly passable defender. He's not going to QB your PP and get you 35 points.

    Shattenkirk for all his flaws, will. If you deploy him like a great balding American MA Bergeron, you'll be fine with him at 4M
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    Quote Originally Posted by Future View Post
    No it's not. You can get the same quality defensemen for 1/4 the price. Claesson is a better player.
    LOL. The fuck he is.

    1/4 the price. 1/100th the production. Shattenkirk is to Claesson as an affordable sports car is to a scooter. Just because they both have wheels doesn't make them comparable.
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    I actually won't be upset if they hang on to Shattenkirk and I'm fully against buying him out.

    Smith can go, but I think Shatty has the ability to have a decent season if healthy.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThirtyONE View Post
    I actually won't be upset if they hang on to Shattenkirk and I'm fully against buying him out.

    Smith can go, but I think Shatty has the ability to have a decent season if healthy.
    Same. This year. Next is a completely different story.

    The issue is that someone is going to their offside. They have, ostensibly, four NHL defenders on the right.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThirtyONE View Post
    I actually won't be upset if they hang on to Shattenkirk and I'm fully against buying him out.

    Smith can go, but I think Shatty has the ability to have a decent season if healthy.
    Quote Originally Posted by Phil in Absentia View Post
    Same. This year. Next is a completely different story.

    The issue is that someone is going to their offside. They have, ostensibly, four NHL defenders on the right.
    I'm telling you guys, I just have a weird feeling with Shatty this year. He's finally 100% and I think he's gonna have one heck of a rebound season with Kakko and Kravvy out there. His experience is going to be a very welcome addition as well.

    I'll even make a prediction and say:

    68 Games played
    11 Goals
    31 assists
    42 Points
    -4

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil in Absentia View Post
    Same. This year. Next is a completely different story.

    The issue is that someone is going to their offside. They have, ostensibly, four NHL defenders on the right.
    I don't necessarily buy into the idea that we need equal righty and lefty dmen, nor do I believe in the idea that a guy can't switch to the other side. I get that it might take a minute to adjust, but I think that's all it is, an adjustment. We've seen guys do it all the time.

    And, yes, if Shatty is gone next season, that means we're only looking at one season of guys playing their offside.
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    the guy is a 50 pnt defenseman. Im not sure why no one thinks he'll score 50 pnts again

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    Quote Originally Posted by CCCP View Post
    the guy is a 50 pnt defenseman. Im not sure why no one thinks he'll score 50 pnts again
    scratch that....he was never a 50 pnt defenseman. im not even sure why the fuck he ever got the money he got.

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    Quote Originally Posted by G1000 View Post
    Freddie Claesson is a perfectly passable defender. He's not going to QB your PP and get you 35 points.

    Shattenkirk for all his flaws, will. If you deploy him like a great balding American MA Bergeron, you'll be fine with him at 4M
    There is absolutely 0 teams who would want Shatty at $4m who don't already have a PP QB. That is the point. He's, presumably, the third option for the PP on this team.

    That's how he's been deployed for 3 years now. You can't get an easier usage than him.
    Last edited by Future; 06-28-2019 at 03:00 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ThirtyONE View Post
    I don't necessarily buy into the idea that we need equal righty and lefty dmen, nor do I believe in the idea that a guy can't switch to the other side. I get that it might take a minute to adjust, but I think that's all it is, an adjustment. We've seen guys do it all the time.

    And, yes, if Shatty is gone next season, that means we're only looking at one season of guys playing their offside.
    The issue isn't handedness. It's comfort. Like asking a career RW to play the left side. Everything is off. Angles, passing lanes, coverage routes, etc.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil in Absentia View Post
    The issue isn't handedness. It's comfort. Like asking a career RW to play the left side. Everything is off. Angles, passing lanes, coverage routes, etc.
    I understand that, but I don't think that's really that big a deal. Someone can get used to other side quite quickly, IMO.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil in Absentia View Post
    LOL. The fuck he is.

    1/4 the price. 1/100th the production. Shattenkirk is to Claesson as an affordable sports car is to a scooter. Just because they both have wheels doesn't make them comparable.
    Fine, then he's the same quality as Pionk. 30-something points and an absolute black hole in the defensive zone. Shatty doesn't produce at 5v5, and his PP production doesn't outweigh the fact that he's abysmal defensively.

    There's a tipping point to where production doesn't overcome horrible defensive play for a defenseman. It's the same exact conversation as Adam Clendening and to a lesser extent John Gilmour. If Shatty was putting up 60 points, fine. But he's not. He's going to give you ~15 5v5 points per year and come nowhere near to beiing strong enough defensively to make that a net positive for your team.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ozzy View Post
    I'm telling you guys, I just have a weird feeling with Shatty this year. He's finally 100% and I think he's gonna have one heck of a rebound season with Kakko and Kravvy out there. His experience is going to be a very welcome addition as well.

    I'll even make a prediction and say:

    68 Games played
    11 Goals
    31 assists
    42 Points
    -4
    You have a ton of confidence in two rookies that havenít played a NHL game yet. I mean Iím excited about the future but we need to dial it back a bit
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    Quote Originally Posted by Future View Post
    Fine, then he's the same quality as Pionk. 30-something points and an absolute black hole in the defensive zone.
    Yeah, maybe from a bar stool. The math says otherwise.

    Last three years:

    Shattenkirk — 0.85 P/60, 50 CF%, 2.49 CF% Rel, 47 GF%, 1.64 xGF +/-
    Pionk — 0.57 P/60, 43.5 CF%, -4.1 CF% Rel, 42% GF%, -16.28 xGF +/-

    Josh is right. It's a shame we'll never get to play his "count the seconds before you spot Pionk on the ice after a blown defensive assignment and goal against" game again.

    Shatty doesn't produce at 5v5, and his PP production doesn't outweigh the fact that he's abysmal defensively.

    There's a tipping point to where production doesn't overcome horrible defensive play for a defenseman. It's the same exact conversation as Adam Clendening and to a lesser extent John Gilmour. If Shatty was putting up 60 points, fine. But he's not. He's going to give you ~15 5v5 points per year and come nowhere near to beiing strong enough defensively to make that a net positive for your team.
    See above. Also, over the last three years, Shattenkirk has 61 ES points — tied with Justin Faulk. He's ahead of Chara, Weber, Theodore, Montour, Klefbom, McAvoy, and Sergachev on that front.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil in Absentia View Post
    Yeah, maybe from a bar stool. The math says otherwise.

    Last three years:

    Shattenkirk — 0.85 P/60, 50 CF%, 2.49 CF% Rel, 47 GF%, 1.64 xGF +/-
    Pionk — 0.57 P/60, 43.5 CF%, -4.1 CF% Rel, 42% GF%, -16.28 xGF +/-

    Josh is right. It's a shame we'll never get to play his "count the seconds before you spot Pionk on the ice after a blown defensive assignment and goal against" game again.



    See above. Also, over the last three years, Shattenkirk has 61 ES points — tied with Justin Faulk. He's ahead of Chara, Weber, Theodore, Montour, Klefbom, McAvoy, and Sergachev on that front.
    Deployment. Shatty's numbers would have also been awful if given heavy DZS and matched up against top pairs. It's not a fair comparison. His numbers are dreadful given the matchups and deployment he gets.

    You act like Shatty doesn't have glaring defensive deficiencies lmao. The guy maybe knows where to be, but he's such a piss poor athlete it doesn't matter - but it's not like he doesn't blow assignments as well.

    Ok fine, 20 5v5 points. Doesn't change anything. Two of those guys, Montour and Sergachev, have the same problem, but are not 30-something. The others....defend.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Future View Post
    Deployment. Shatty's numbers would have also been awful if given heavy DZS and matched up against top pairs. It's not a fair comparison. His numbers are dreadful given the matchups and deployment he gets.
    This is an unfalsifiable argument. We have no way to test it.

    You act like Shatty doesn't have glaring defensive deficiencies lmao. The guy maybe knows where to be, but he's such a piss poor athlete it doesn't matter - but it's not like he doesn't blow assignments as well.
    He does. I just don't believe they line up with your hyperbole.

    Ok fine, 20 5v5 points. Doesn't change anything. Two of those guys, Montour and Sergachev, have the same problem, but are not 30-something. The others....defend.
    You're moving the goal posts here. Your original claim was that he doesn't produce at even strength, which is incorrect. He does, relative to Faulk, and ahead of the above list. You're adding caveats after the fact to sidestep this.

    I would love to move Shattenkirk, too. You know this. I just wrote a whole article on it. But we need to be realistic about who he is. This narrative you've crafted that paints him like a leper strains credulity at every turn.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil in Absentia View Post
    This is an unfalsifiable argument. We have no way to test it.



    He does. I just don't believe they line up with your hyperbole.



    You're moving the goal posts here. Your original claim was that he doesn't produce at even strength, which is incorrect. He does, relative to Faulk, and ahead of the above list. You're adding caveats after the fact to sidestep this.

    I would love to move Shattenkirk, too. You know this. I just wrote a whole article on it. But we need to be realistic about who he is. This narrative you've crafted that paints him like a leper strains credulity at every turn.
    Fine, but we all know it's true lol.

    Then stop ignoring them. They are the reason there is "no interest"

    Nope. I said he gives around 15 points - and it's not enough to compensate for his defensive flaws.

    He is a leper. There is no interest in him. I am being realistic. He's a gifted puck mover who is dreadful defensively and no longer has the legs to a) compensate for defensive deficiencies or b) drive play, even on the PP. As such, there is absolutely 0 market for him. I dont' know what other narrative there is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Future View Post
    Deployment. Shatty's numbers would have also been awful if given heavy DZS and matched up against top pairs. It's not a fair comparison. His numbers are dreadful given the matchups and deployment he gets.

    You act like Shatty doesn't have glaring defensive deficiencies lmao. The guy maybe knows where to be, but he's such a piss poor athlete it doesn't matter - but it's not like he doesn't blow assignments as well.

    Ok fine, 20 5v5 points. Doesn't change anything. Two of those guys, Montour and Sergachev, have the same problem, but are not 30-something. The others....defend.
    I mean, sure, but giving your ppqb and offensive specialist a ton of DZS is like driving a Corvette in DC during rush hour
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