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Thread: McKenzie: "Rangers want to get better in a hurry,"

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    When does the 'championship' window start for the Rangers? 2021? 2024? 2033?

    Are there no free agents available in 2020? or 2023? or 2028?

    If we had seen progress in a rebuild with a young core
    year 1 rock bottom
    year 2 signs of perkiness
    year 3 first or second round playoff loss, 6 or 7 game series

    After year 3, I'm supportive of getting Panarin or equivalent.

    But Rangers could have a trajectory:
    year 1 rock bottom
    year 2 signs of perkiness
    year 3 worse rock bottom
    year 4 rock bottom
    year 5 signs of perkiness
    year 6 first or second round playoff loss, 6 or 7 game series

    You'd have a 33 year old Panarin with one year left on his contract.

    RESIST THE SHINY TOY
    "We're all f*cked. It helps to remember that." - George Carlin

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  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fatfrancesa View Post
    A big part for me here is that I don’t think panarin is a franchise player. I also not on board with else injury concerns. They exist no matter how anyone wants to spin it.
    With this being my first thought on both players it easy for me to not want to take the risk with where the team sits. So please enough of the false points littered through here. I don’t want to suck, I don’t want to not be good to quick, I don’t never want to sign a ufa,etc etc. what I don’t want is to take risks when the reward isn’t worth the risk. I’m not doing anything to this team that could hamper the team 4-5 years from now.
    Not taking a shot at Panarin/Karlsson might be what hampers your team 4-5 years from now.

    If it doesnt... then why not flirt with the idea?


    The team is more likely to be hampered by overpaying Buchnevich and Pionk type players.
    Lias Andersson for #AJT2019

  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by fletch View Post
    When does the 'championship' window start for the Rangers? 2021? 2024? 2033?

    Are there no free agents available in 2020? or 2023? or 2028?

    If we had seen progress in a rebuild with a young core
    year 1 rock bottom
    year 2 signs of perkiness
    year 3 first or second round playoff loss, 6 or 7 game series

    After year 3, I'm supportive of getting Panarin or equivalent.

    But Rangers could have a trajectory:
    year 1 rock bottom
    year 2 signs of perkiness
    year 3 worse rock bottom
    year 4 rock bottom
    year 5 signs of perkiness
    year 6 first or second round playoff loss, 6 or 7 game series

    You'd have a 33 year old Panarin with one year left on his contract.

    RESIST THE SHINY TOY
    wait, so the worst part of a "worst case scenario" rebuild is more top draft picks while watching a guy like Panarin to keep me interested in Rangers hockey for a few years? Sure. It's like this year, but with a skilled player. Awesome.
    Lias Andersson for #AJT2019

  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by fletch View Post
    When does the 'championship' window start for the Rangers? 2021? 2024? 2033?

    Are there no free agents available in 2020? or 2023? or 2028?

    If we had seen progress in a rebuild with a young core
    year 1 rock bottom
    year 2 signs of perkiness
    year 3 first or second round playoff loss, 6 or 7 game series

    After year 3, I'm supportive of getting Panarin or equivalent.

    But Rangers could have a trajectory:
    year 1 rock bottom
    year 2 signs of perkiness
    year 3 worse rock bottom
    year 4 rock bottom
    year 5 signs of perkiness
    year 6 first or second round playoff loss, 6 or 7 game series

    You'd have a 33 year old Panarin with one year left on his contract.

    RESIST THE SHINY TOY
    Again, show me the 27 y.o. UFAs over next 3 years:
    https://www.capfriendly.com/browse/free-agents/2021 Trash
    https://www.capfriendly.com/browse/free-agents/2021 Especially crap-tastic
    https://www.capfriendly.com/browse/free-agents/2022 more nothing

  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    All due respect this just sounds like being contrarian for contrarian sake. I wouldn't call Panarin "the first guy to come around". He's probably one of the best players to hit UFA in some time, and he wants to come to the Rangers, and he's 27 years old. Let's not act like it's Frolov or Kotalik here.

    Which players who are as good or better, at his age, are slated to hit UFA in the next 3 years?

    I don't anyone expects the prospects to step right in or that we'll be competing for a Cup tomorrow, but when you factor in development time, time to gel as a team, etc., it's not unrealistic that they start making noise in what will likely continue to be a weak-ish Metro the season after next.

    Panarin (and Karlsson) are going to available now, and there are no guaruntees anyone "as good or better" will ever hit UFA.
    Moreover, history suggests it's unlikely they ever will be. You can count on maybe two hands the number of truly elite-level free agents — real needle-movers — who've ever made free agency in the last decade. It just doesn't happen.

    Hell, this class was supposed to be a super one. That is, until half the class re-upped. Seguin, etc.
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  6. #126
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    Panarin is not a needle mover. He is not a top ten player in the league. At least imo. Taylor hall is ufa next year. Is he resigning with the devils?

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    I’m not suggesting they wait for hall I’m just answering the question of who’s there.

  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fatfrancesa View Post
    Panarin is not a needle mover. He is not a top ten player in the league. At least imo. Taylor hall is ufa next year. Is he resigning with the devils?
    74 points in 67 games and 307 in 310 career games doesn't move the needle? Seriously?

    Panarin will be a free agent and reportedly wants to play here.

    The fact you're still having to ask if Hall will make it is all the reason you should need to not count on it (or hope for it). And that says nothing of convincing him to join his current team's biggest rival in free agency.
    "Everyone says you should be a good loser. If you’re a good loser, you’re a loser."
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    "Never be a spectator of unfairness or stupidity. Seek out argument and disputation for their own sake; the grave will supply plenty of time for silence."
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    Why does it have to be a ufa either? Having plenty of cap space allows the rangers to be players on the trade front as well. Even taking back money to acquire favorable young players to build a core.

    Nobody is going to change me mind here. You guys want him great. You will probably get him. I just don’t see it as being anything other than throwing a bond to a fan base. It’s a marketing signing not one about contending.

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    Ek would be worse. The guy can barely stay on the ice now. 7 years from now? Geez

  11. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fatfrancesa View Post
    Why does it have to be a ufa either? Having plenty of cap space allows the rangers to be players on the trade front as well. Even taking back money to acquire favorable young players to build a core.

    Nobody is going to change me mind here. You guys want him great. You will probably get him. I just don’t see it as being anything other than throwing a bond to a fan base. It’s a marketing signing not one about contending.
    Because free agents cost nothing but money. Trades dilute the depth of the team the player you are dealing for will play on. Certainly in exchange for a would-be needle-mover.
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  12. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil in Absentia View Post
    Because free agents cost nothing but money. Trades dilute the depth of the team the player you are dealing for will play on. Certainly in exchange for a would-be needle-mover.
    So go sign him then. Let’s see the needle move like it did in Columbus. Last year person after person told me Columbus was the barometer to judge what a contender looks like. Bounced with a whimper in round one last year and now fighting for the 8 seed. All with a superior team other than panarin than the rangers. For s player who moves the needle do much what’s the problem? Where is the team success that surrounds his massive talents and elite status? They don’t exist.

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    And to take anyone serious here. Panarin is elite but hall is not. That is laughable. Hall has carried a team on his back. Again not advocating for hall but the idea these guys don’t come around is just false. And yes there are never handfuls of elite talents year in year out as ufas but there only needs to be one. The rangers should buy that guy eventually. In my mibd when they are ready and when their roster situation revels itself. As far as next year goes and developing I think they are better served spending money trying to bring multiple guys here to strengthen the d core. Because lord knows the first thing Quinn wants is a team built on good defensive structure. The shinny toys and finishers should be added to a system like that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fatfrancesa View Post
    And to take anyone serious here. Panarin is elite but hall is not. That is laughable. Hall has carried a team on his back.
    Who said Hall isn't elite? You're tilting at windmills.

    Again not advocating for hall but the idea these guys don’t come around is just false. And yes there are never handfuls of elite talents year in year out as ufas but there only needs to be one.
    You mean like Panarin?

    And no, it's not false. The vast majority of players, especially superstar-level players, re-sign with their teams and forego free agency.

    The rangers should buy that guy eventually. In my mibd when they are ready and when their roster situation revels itself. As far as next year goes and developing I think they are better served spending money trying to bring multiple guys here to strengthen the d core. Because lord knows the first thing Quinn wants is a team built on good defensive structure. The shinny toys and finishers should be added to a system like that.
    This is pie in the sky. It suggests that guy will actually be available at whatever point you are comfortable buying when history suggests he's unlikely to be. That's when team's get stupid and sign Loui Eriksson because he's the next best thing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fatfrancesa View Post
    The rangers should buy that guy eventually. In my mibd when they are ready and when their roster situation revels itself.
    What do you do in the meantime? Swim in mediocrity that results in lukewarm 1st round draft pick position? Or rip it down more? Or try to improve the team with other FAs?

    There has to be a good alternative plan to passing on a guy like Panarin. The only one I can piece together in my head that makes sense is to rip it down more. Trade Kreider. Possibly trade Zibanejad. Really tank for a top 3 pick, maybe 2 of them. Keeping the team the same and being happy with a 10-15 pick every year is not a great way to find the elite talent you need.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil in Absentia View Post
    Who said Hall isn't elite? You're tilting at windmills.



    You mean like Panarin?

    And no, it's not false. The vast majority of players, especially superstar-level players, re-sign with their teams and forego free agency.



    This is pie in the sky. It suggests that guy will actually be available at whatever point you are comfortable buying when history suggests he's unlikely to be. That's when team's get stupid and sign Loui Eriksson because he's the next best thing.
    Why is it pie in the sky? Why is it that this fan base sees the need to have to be in on every single guy that does become available. At the very least why can’t they even leave room for a different idea!

    Where is the actual proof of panarin moving the needle for the team he plays for? Did Columbus improve? You want to throw stats at me fine then let’s look at team records. Did they improve? So the rangers will finish around 80 points this year more than likely. So with panarin what’s the expectation?

    As far as hall goes. You have no idea if he resigns. What I do know is that if the rangers sign panarin they won’t be able to sign hall. What I do know is that if they sign panarin and ek they become far less likely in the future to be able to be involved if a bigger or better name becomes available. What I do know is that signing panarin doesn’t make them a contender next year or the year after that. Nobody even knows if the rangers have a capable goalie in two/three years. There are so many holes and questions with this team. Adding panarin would certainly fill a hole. But at $11 or $12m a year? No thanks not ready for that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rmc51 View Post
    What do you do in the meantime? Swim in mediocrity that results in lukewarm 1st round draft pick position? Or rip it down more? Or try to improve the team with other FAs?

    There has to be a good alternative plan to passing on a guy like Panarin. The only one I can piece together in my head that makes sense is to rip it down more. Trade Kreider. Possibly trade Zibanejad. Really tank for a top 3 pick, maybe 2 of them. Keeping the team the same and being happy with a 10-15 pick every year is not a great way to find the elite talent you need.
    Why don’t we start with what the core is of this new team. List the guys we are building around.
    Zibanejad and skeij, if I give you skeij are the only proven guys I can see
    Kreider if they resign him and commit big money and big term
    Chytil, Anderson, Howden, Hajek, ada, pionk. All are probably yes but none are sure things.
    Buch I don’t know. He’s far from a consistent nhl player
    Strome, fast, Namestnikov, nieve, lemieux, Vesey. I don’t think the rangers are committed to any of them as far as a core of the future. Lemieux possibly but a bottom six guy.

    So what’s the core? Zibenjad and skeij and pray? Some of the young guys will pan out and some won’t. But most will take considerably longer to get their legs under them than most want to admit.

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    Oh and Kravtsov. Because on nhl19 20 year old kids integrate immediately and don’t need time to develop. Same with Shestyorkin he will come and be lights out. So many questions.

  19. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fatfrancesa View Post
    Why is it pie in the sky? Why is it that this fan base sees the need to have to be in on every single guy that does become available. At the very least why can’t they even leave room for a different idea!
    This was explained in the very next sentence I wrote. "It suggests that guy will actually be available at whatever point you are comfortable buying when history suggests he's unlikely to be."

    Where is the actual proof of panarin moving the needle for the team he plays for? Did Columbus improve? You want to throw stats at me fine then let’s look at team records. Did they improve?
    It's funny that you're using Hall as your benchmark here. Where's the proof of him moving the needle for the team he plays for? Not a single Edmonton team he skated for ever made the post-season (and he had plenty of help to get them there). That Jersey team he carried on his back lost in five in the first round. Yet you rip Panarin for Columbus' simialr fate during his tenure there despite him also leading the team in scoring both seasons in which he actually scored more than he ever did with Chicago, who he won a Calder trophy with.

    So the rangers will finish around 80 points this year more than likely. So with panarin what’s the expectation?
    To add about 90 points to the roster. More if Karlsson comes, too.

    As far as hall goes. You have no idea if he resigns. What I do know is that if the rangers sign panarin they won’t be able to sign hall. What I do know is that if they sign panarin and ek they become far less likely in the future to be able to be involved if a bigger or better name becomes available. What I do know is that signing panarin doesn’t make them a contender next year or the year after that. Nobody even knows if the rangers have a capable goalie in two/three years. There are so many holes and questions with this team. Adding panarin would certainly fill a hole. But at $11 or $12m a year? No thanks not ready for that.
    Yes, that's exactly my point. Neither do you, which is why it's illogical to hope that he doesn't and makes it to free agency and opts for the Rangers if and when he gets there. Principle of parsimony.
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  20. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fatfrancesa View Post
    Oh and Kravtsov. Because on nhl19 20 year old kids integrate immediately and don’t need time to develop. Same with Shestyorkin he will come and be lights out. So many questions.


    Lias Andersson for #AJT2019

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