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Thread: McKenzie: "Rangers want to get better in a hurry,"

  1. #441
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil in Absentia View Post
    No, it doesn't have to be. But I'm not against it at all. I think Panarin is as close to a must as possible. I can easily be swayed on Karlsson, too, but if it has to be just one, it's Panarin all day long.
    All for Panarin. Not so much on Karlsson. Just have a bad feeling on him, for the aforementioned reasons of being 29, contract carrying him to 36, wanting massive dollars, concerns of how he will age and how quickly/severely he might, and the Achilles injury. Put that in the hopper with the Rangers history and piss poor track record with FA’s at that age (yes I know they’re all different but the thought is still there and should be), and you have legitimate reasons to be concerned and reluctant.

    I think Karlsson would do very well for 3-4 seasons. Beyond that I’m concerned. And I think on a deal the size he will command, you need at least 5 seasons of elite play and production and at least 1 Cup to say you got your money’s worth.
    Just skeptical they get there with him. Feel much safer on Panarin

  2. #442
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    Quote Originally Posted by lefty9 View Post
    I am against signing him,I do t want to sign a player to a six year big contract for the great years he had with other club,when his play will diminish during the contract here with the rangers ,and you know in a couple of years you will wish the rangers never signed him
    Except you don't know that. None of us do. He could very well have a Datsyuk-like "decline" to his career where even into his mid-to-late thirties, he's one of the game's best wingers.
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  3. #443
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    Quote Originally Posted by RangersIn7 View Post
    All for Panarin. Not so much on Karlsson. Just have a bad feeling on him, for the aforementioned reasons of being 29, contract carrying him to 36, wanting massive dollars, concerns of how he will age and how quickly/severely he might, and the Achilles injury. Put that in the hopper with the Rangers history and piss poor track record with FA’s at that age (yes I know they’re all different but the thought is still there and should be), and you have legitimate reasons to be concerned and reluctant.

    I think Karlsson would do very well for 3-4 seasons. Beyond that I’m concerned. And I think on a deal the size he will command, you need at least 5 seasons of elite play and production and at least 1 Cup to say you got your money’s worth.
    Just skeptical they get there with him. Feel much safer on Panarin
    Then what? He becomes a terrible hockey player? I don't see it happening. I agree about the injury concerns, but that's the only reason I'm skeptical.

  4. #444
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    Just so I’m clear on what you guys are saying. You are already sold on chytil. Based on what? I see potential but he’s been nowhere close to a consistent player no less an impactful one. Totally acceptable and understandable being he’s 19. However he’s far from a guarantee and he’s probably a couple years away from being if all goes well an impact player on a consistent basis.

    The 2nd pick and Kravtsov are complete unknowns not in talent but in readiness. They may seemlessly come in next year or they like chytil could take time. It is possible. If it does take time how good is this team even with adding those two ufas? If we are all in agreement that three years is a probable timeframe for contending if things go right. Then why does it seem so far fetched to worry that two guys in their 30’s might regress by that time? Why does anyone believe that they will be the last impact players ever available? Nobody knows that. It’s also not a must to have to sign a big time ufa at some point to win. It’s far more likely to build your team organically and add those guys as rentals when the year is right.

    As far as dzingel goes, people asked for another option because they just can’t do nothing major. I’d rather not sign him or Hayes either unless four years is ok with them.

    And Phil I understand you will figure out the cap later if these guys need to get paid three four years from now. However your point in signing these guys is because you believe in the young guys and their trajectory. Well if they do meet expectations there is going to be a problem because these two ufas will be making $24m of the cap and they aren’t signing without a ntc. Which would mean you maybe losing some early 20’splayrs for two guys in their 30’s and on downsides of their careers.

    Doing this is like putting ourselves in the blackhawks shoes without the cups. They had to pay Toews, Kane, seabrook, and Keith because of their success. Only Kane now isn’t a drag on that franchise. The other three and their cap hit is directly responsible for their fall into the abyss.

    You guys could be right. I totally admit that. Both guys could play 7 great years. All these prospects could all hit. There is never another good ufa ever. All is possible. Myself I’m just not ready to throw all the chips in the middle right now. This is the rangers we are talking about here. You really think those contracts aren’t going to burn us. If they do you are killing this rebuild in its crib.
    Last edited by Fatfrancesa; 04-13-2019 at 11:30 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rmc51 View Post
    Then what? He becomes a terrible hockey player? I don't see it happening. I agree about the injury concerns, but that's the only reason I'm skeptical.
    Terrible. No

    Not worth the monstrous cap hit he will surely carry anymore. Yes.

    Guys age and skill sets decline.

    I’m not saying that he couldn’t defy that. Just not as willing to roll the dice on him to the tune of say, 7 years and $85 million dollars as some others.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rmc51 View Post
    Then what? He becomes a terrible hockey player? I don't see it happening. I agree about the injury concerns, but that's the only reason I'm skeptical.

    That should be enough of a reason to say no. You are in the infancy of a rebuild and you admittedly agree to injury concerns to a 29 year old yet have no problem handing him $12m for 7 seasons. That should be gm malpractice. The risk is crippling, like Staal and shattenkirk on steroids. I guess you could always buy him out and have dead cap space for a decade. That wouldn’t be a problem would it?

    Duncan Keith was a great player too. What happened to him?

    Bottom line is. If you’re wrong they are fucked. If I’m wrong nothing happens. They just continue to take the positive steps they are taking and hopefully the next time an impact player is available our young core is ready to justify the risk.

  7. #447
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    And finally. Next year being in the lottery again would not be a bad place for this team. The 2020 draft is widely considered the best draft since 2003 and maybe the best ever. Another year of development without mortgaging the future would actually make a lot of sense. I know that’s hard to take but it’s the truth. This team should have its eyes on summer of 2020 to make the push you want. And that could all change very easily depending how things unfold but that should be the target.

  8. #448
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fatfrancesa View Post
    And finally. Next year being in the lottery again would not be a bad place for this team. The 2020 draft is widely considered the best draft since 2003 and maybe the best ever. Another year of development without mortgaging the future would actually make a lot of sense. I know that’s hard to take but it’s the truth. This team should have its eyes on summer of 2020 to make the push you want. And that could all change very easily depending how things unfold but that should be the target.
    I wouldn’t turn my nose up at another year of picking high. Or even another year of multiple 1st rounders.

  9. #449
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fatfrancesa View Post
    You guys could be right. I totally admit that. Both guys could play 7 great years. All these prospects could all hit. There is never another good ufa ever. All is possible. Myself I’m just not ready to throw all the chips in the middle right now. This is the rangers we are talking about here. You really think those contracts aren’t going to burn us. If they do you are killing this rebuild in its crib.
    Either side can be right. Both paths are entirely legitimate, and I wouldn't blame the Rangers for choosing one path over the other.

  10. #450
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fatfrancesa View Post
    Why does anyone believe that they will be the last impact players ever available? Nobody knows that. It’s also not a must to have to sign a big time ufa at some point to win. It’s far more likely to build your team organically and add those guys as rentals when the year is right.
    Well you can look at future free agents on Capfriendly. There are only a handful over the next 4 or 5 years (Hall? Gaudreau? Forsberg? Mackinnon?), and the chances of any of them hitting the market are slim to none. All would be almost 30 as well by the time they are even up. I think Panarin at 31-32 will still be better than what you will find available on the open UFA market, even considering potential regression. Karlsson I am less sure about.

  11. #451
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    Quote Originally Posted by rmc51 View Post
    Well you can look at future free agents on Capfriendly. There are only a handful over the next 4 or 5 years (Hall? Gaudreau? Forsberg? Mackinnon?), and the chances of any of them hitting the market are slim to none. All would be almost 30 as well by the time they are even up. I think Panarin at 31-32 will still be better than what you will find available on the open UFA market, even considering potential regression. Karlsson I am less sure about.
    But we are in the beginning of a rebuild. The rangers are adding asset after asset. The farm is starting to really be stocked. Why do they have to sign any big time ufa? When the time is right they will have the assets to trade from positional strength to solidify what they need. Look at the best teams, they all have become good through the draft with very little in terms of massive ufas. Toronto is the only one and they are going to lose one of their young guns because of Tavares but they are in year six or seven since their tear down. Even with Tavares though they have ignored their defense

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fatfrancesa View Post
    But we are in the beginning of a rebuild. The rangers are adding asset after asset. The farm is starting to really be stocked. Why do they have to sign any big time ufa? When the time is right they will have the assets to trade from positional strength to solidify what they need. Look at the best teams, they all have become good through the draft with very little in terms of massive ufas. Toronto is the only one and they are going to lose one of their young guns because of Tavares but they are in year six or seven since their tear down. Even with Tavares though they have ignored their defense
    One more time for the people in the back...

    A.
    Bird.
    In.
    The.
    Hand.

    Wait and trade for someone... How do you know who will be available? And then you have to gut your team and system to get them.

    Wait and sign a different UFA... Again how do we know who'll be available? Will they be 27? Will they want to come?

    We're not at the beginning of a rebuild. We're about half way through after this draft with the amount of picks we've made last year and this year, even with the massive whiff on Lias.

    Also regarding the Blackhawks, not sure where you're getting only Kane isn't a drain. Toews is a p/g player and Keith is $5.5 against the cap. Seabrook's deal is trash and they haven't drafted well, and they had no goaltending this year or they'd be in the playoffs.

    And if next year's draft is as good as 2003 (link to that prediction?), you can grab a great player in the top 10, middle 10 or bottom 10. Suter went 7, Seabrook 14 and Burns 20. And that's just the D. I'd take Corey Perry at 28 all day.
    Last edited by Pete; 04-14-2019 at 05:44 AM.

  13. #453
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    hope he stays in

    Bluestacks Kodi Lucky Patcher
    Last edited by Jhon.L; 04-15-2019 at 08:04 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    Why does it have to be instead? Our studs can't develop of we have Panarin?

    And who says they won't be final pieces in 3 years?

    Again ... They're not old. Especially Panarin.
    I think it will take longer than 3 years to be contenders, I guess that's where we disagree.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vodka Drunkenski View Post
    I think it will take longer than 3 years to be contenders, I guess that's where we disagree.
    Well if we're taking 5 years from now that's a problem as we'll have to replace Zib, Krieder and Skjei since they will be over 30 and we know that's not allowed...

    With the amount of picks we've already made and the player we're getting at 2 (I think you guys are severely underrating that player... Hughes or Kakko) we are most likely a playoff team at minimum and Panarin + another year of experience for young pkayers likely makes us one next season.

    You can't perpetually rebuild. Last year and this year, with the # of picks we have, that process of selling pieces like we did with Hayes and should with Kreider is likely over.

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    No one said it's not allowed to have players over 30 but I think it's fair for people to be hesitant to sign a UFA who's inching closer to 30 y/o to 9-10 million for extended period of time. And I'm not underrating those players, infact I'm hoping either of those players become our own Panarin or even better than him. And when time comes, I want to be sure there's enough money to pay him, Kravtsov and company rather than be hindered by aging Panarin and Karlsson deals.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vodka Drunkenski View Post
    No one said it's not allowed to have players over 30 but I think it's fair for people to be hesitant to sign a UFA who's inching closer to 30 y/o to 9-10 million for extended period of time. And I'm not underrating those players, infact I'm hoping either of those players become our own Panarin or even better than him. And when time comes, I want to be sure there's enough money to pay him, Kravtsov and company rather than be hindered by aging Panarin and Karlsson deals.
    Every UFA is approaching 30. This logic means you never sign a player approaching UFA, even your own.

    You can't win with a team full of 22-27 year olds. Or maybe you can? Seems unlikely though.

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    I think you can, the league continues to trend towards speed and younger players, sprinkle in your elite like Ovechkin and Crosby. Not including them, I would guess that average age of top 20 scorers is 24-25.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    Every UFA is approaching 30. This logic means you never sign a player approaching UFA, even your own.

    You can't win with a team full of 22-27 year olds. Or maybe you can? Seems unlikely though.
    Approaching or at 30 isn’t the problem. It’s guys that age wanting 7 or 8 seasons at huge dollars carrying them until they are in their mid to late 30’s that’s the issue.

    If they could get Karlsson for example on a 5 year deal, even if they have to duke him more money, they should pursue that heavily. Even if he declined you can live with 1 or even 2 years wherein he’s a diminished player with a huge cap hit and salary. But anymore than that, it’s a major problem.
    But I can’t see him taking anything less than a max term deal.

    Even in a capped sport, the money doesn’t kill the big market teams. The term is what hurts them.

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    I would say this draft and FA period closes out year 2 of the rebuild. While it might not have been the full on plan in everyone’s mind, the rebuild started when Step got traded at the 2017 draft. Gorton new he’d be going with a youth movement at some point at that time, he saw Stepan’s NTC was approaching, he didn’t want to be saddled with that, so he moved him. And didn’t really replace him with someone who could conceivably replace his ice time. Then 7-8 months later, out came the letter and the sell off.

    I think even with some adds in FA this summer and obviously a huge piece at the draft coming, while they probably take a nice step forward , they’re still outside looking in as far as the playoffs go. That could be different depending on who they sign, how impactful rookies are, and how much some younger guys progress this year. But they’d still need to make about a 20 point improvement. That’s a huge jump and a lot to ask.

    If it is Karlsson and Panarin, then a huge improvement won’t surprise me. If they only grab one, it would.
    But either way, you’re still looking at a lot of ice time being consumed by rookies and kids. Karlsson and Panarin can’t carry every play or play every shift.

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