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  1. #641
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    I'm not following. Are you saying that because the climate is in such bad shape, we should ignore it because there's nothing we can do about it...Just try and make as much money as possible before we all die?
    No, he's saying that because he doesn't agree with the research provided that he has a right to question it.

    Welcome to the new American dystopia, where research, peer review, and facts don't matter, but damn it all if you point out how fucking stupid that is because "we're entitled to our opinions" and "the 1st amendment"
    Last edited by G1000; 04-08-2019 at 08:25 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by G1000 View Post
    No, he's saying that because he doesn't agree with the research provided that he has a right to question it.

    Welcome to the new American dystopia, where research, peer review, and facts don't matter, but damn it all if you point out how fucking stupid that is because "muh opinyuns" and "muh 1st amerndmernt"
    That's also what happens when you're convinced the entire mass of media are always lying, about every thing, all the time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    That's also what happens when you're convinced the entire mass of media are always lying, about every thing, all the time.
    And to be clear, I'm not really directing this at Chief in particular - more a commentary on where we're at as a country.

    "Everyone is lying to you, only I've got the answers" is not a place where we can disagree, argue, or move forward amicably - ever. Neither is "well, my side believes _____".

    That there's been such a wave of disrespect for the processes and professions that brought us electricity, flight, space travel, the internet, and any other modern marvel to the point that we can get to a space where repeatable experimentation and reviewable evidence are subject to statements like "well, if it's true..." or even, frankly, opinion, is nothing short of both incredible and unbelievably disturbing.

    What happened to us? We used to REVERE scientists - now we loathe their work and completely disregard the processes that have been used, tested, tried and true since fucking Copernicus.

    This is how we get flat earthers. This is how kids die of fucking measles in 2019. This is how we become an idiocracy.

    Be better than that, damnit.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    That's also what happens when you're convinced the entire mass of media are always lying, about every thing, all the time.
    Quote Originally Posted by G1000 View Post
    And to be clear, I'm not really directing this at Chief in particular - more a commentary on where we're at as a country.

    "Everyone is lying to you, only I've got the answers" is not a place where we can disagree, argue, or move forward amicably - ever. Neither is "well, my side believes _____".

    That there's been such a wave of disrespect for the processes and professions that brought us electricity, flight, space travel, the internet, and any other modern marvel to the point that we can get to a space where repeatable experimentation and reviewable evidence are subject to statements like "well, if it's true..." or even, frankly, opinion, is nothing short of both incredible and unbelievably disturbing.

    What happened to us? We used to REVERE scientists - now we loathe their work and completely disregard the processes that have been used, tested, tried and true since fucking Copernicus.

    This is how we get flat earthers. This is how kids die of fucking measles in 2019. This is how we become an idiocracy.

    Be better than that, damnit.
    We need to separate scientific data from news. These two are getting conveniently mixed to paint a picture that people who question the validity of slanted news also do the same with scientific data. Sure, there's a portion of conspiracy theorists who do clump these things together, but it's not a large portion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rmc51 View Post
    We need to separate scientific data from news. These two are getting conveniently mixed to paint a picture that people who question the validity of slanted news also do the same with scientific data. Sure, there's a portion of conspiracy theorists who do clump these things together, but it's not a large portion.
    No, we don't, and it's this sort of distinction that gives space for the exact sort of dumbassery we're talking about as being dangerous. Because, guess who's propagating this crap? It sure as shit ain't the scientists.

    Good reporting in the social sciences (news) matters - just as much as good reporting in the hard sciences. If you find the need to call for separating the process of the two, I'd question your stance on the purpose of the news.
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    Quote Originally Posted by G1000 View Post
    No, we don't, and it's this sort of distinction that gives space for the exact sort of dumbassery we're talking about as being dangerous. Because, guess who's propagating this crap? It sure as shit ain't the scientists.

    Good reporting in the social sciences (news) matters - just as much as good reporting in the hard sciences. If you find the need to call for separating the process of the two, I'd question your stance on the purpose of the news.
    Do you believe everything you see on CNN and Fox News? The problem today is blindly following everything that's put out there without following it up with some additional work to validate it. The great thing about hard science is you can go to the source (hard evidence, data, research papers). Social science news as you labeled is much harder to validate and is far more opinionated - and opinions differ.

    Believing these two things are the same and equal is dangerous.

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    There's a difference between not believing EVERYTHING and not believing ANYTHING from the media.

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    Americans Think All Network News Channels Lean Liberal, Poll Finds

    "Everyone says you should be a good loser. If you’re a good loser, you’re a loser."
    - John Tortorella


    "Never be a spectator of unfairness or stupidity. Seek out argument and disputation for their own sake; the grave will supply plenty of time for silence."
    - Christopher Hitchens

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    I like the top 4, but from CNN on down, I don't trust any of them. Im surprised CNN is that high on the chart, they have been caught numerous times lying on some of their stories. Ill never forget the time they tried to screw over the WWF by editing their piece to make it look like they all use steroids and Vince had also taped the interview and showed what was really said. To me, CNN, Fox News and MSNBC are all terrible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    That's also what happens when you're convinced the entire mass of media are always lying, about every thing, all the time.
    Nope, never said that

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    Quote Originally Posted by RodrigueGabriel View Post
    As a nation, we have to decide to act in a way that is commensurate with the problem. Carrot with no stick is not effective. If there is no cost for noncompliance, there is only compliance when it is convenient.
    ...or profitable or sensible or beneficial in such a way for people to want to embrace it. I didn't have to give up candles when electricity was invented but it became convenient and made my life better. I didn't have to give up my horse and wagon when the auto became affordable, but again.

    YOU CANNOT tell me I MUST drive an electric car by 2021 because YOU say so. And YOU CANNOT fine me for not doing so (ACA individual mandate anyone?)
    Last edited by NY Chief; 04-09-2019 at 11:36 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by G1000 View Post

    What happened to us? We used to REVERE scientists - now we loathe their work and completely disregard the processes that have been used, tested, tried and true since fucking Copernicus.
    I still do. No one was a bigger fan of the space race when I was a kid. I work with many of those people. Technically I guess I am one of those people (Mechanical Engineer)

    Those guys brought us definable results (some in the face of the rest of the world laughing at them).
    First it was global cooling, then global warming, then all encompassing climate change. Al Gore said the polar caps would be gone in 10 years, 10 years ago. Other disastrous predictions have been made but non have come to pass in such a way as to prove it to the masses. Yeah, OK if and when that happens it will be probably be too late. But right now that is still a big IF. We are either going to burn up, freeze to death or drown. Which is it? I'd like to be better prepared.
    Last edited by NY Chief; 04-09-2019 at 11:37 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NY Chief View Post
    ...or profitable or sensible or beneficial in such a way for people to want to embrace it. I didn't have to give up candles when electricity was invented but it became convenient and made my life better. I didn't have to give up my horse and wagon when the auto became affordable, but again.

    YOU CANNOT tell me I MUST drive an electric car by 2021 because YOU say so. And YOU CANNOT fine me for not doing so (ACA individual mandate anyone?)
    Like I said, vehicle turnover is slow, so I'LL give YOU until 2022. (Just kidding.) What could happen is that Congress could tell auto companies to make decreasing numbers of internal combustion vehicles - and increasing numbers of electrics - over time. It could also slap big enough taxes on gasoline (cigarettes anyone?) to make it worth your while to make the switch. On compliance generally: if the Clean Air Act allowed automakers to decide whether to install catalytic converters in 1970, we would all be living under an extremely noxious blanket of smog at this point. Public goods (roads, sewage treatment, etc.) are something that everyone pays for, no matter their desire or level of selfishness. The job of policymakers is to educate citizens about the need for action and to implement policy that makes those changes in a way that minimizes drastic economic impact. If the problem is deemed worthy enough of being addressed to pass legislation, then you gotta obey the law. It's senseless to pass a law that doesn't work. A law that fails to compel people to do things to solve the problem (that they are physically and financially able to do) won't work. You got a better method? I'm all ears. But it actually has to work. Otherwise, I have to assume that you don't really think it's a significant problem.
    Last edited by RodrigueGabriel; 04-09-2019 at 01:09 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NY Chief View Post
    I still do. No one was a bigger fan of the space race when I was a kid. I work with many of those people. Technically I guess I am one of those people (Mechanical Engineer)

    Those guys brought us definable results (some in the face of the rest of the world laughing at them).
    First it was global cooling, then global warming, then all encompassing climate change. Al Gore said the polar caps would be gone in 10 years, 10 years ago. Other disastrous predictions have been made but non have come to pass in such a way as to prove it to the masses. Yeah, OK if and when that happens it will be probably be too late. But right now that is still a big IF. We are either going to burn up, freeze to death or drown. Which is it? I'd like to be better prepared.
    Here, again, is the summary for policymakers of the IPCC 2018 report on the impacts of temperature increases. https://www.ipcc.ch/sr15/chapter/sum...policy-makers/ If you would like to be better prepared, I urge you to read it. Again, only 32 pages. Like a long magazine article and then you wouldn't need to leave it up to middlemen to tell you. It is within your power. It would also raise the level of these conversations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NY Chief View Post
    I still do. No one was a bigger fan of the space race when I was a kid. I work with many of those people. Technically I guess I am one of those people (Mechanical Engineer)

    Those guys brought us definable results (some in the face of the rest of the world laughing at them).
    First it was global cooling, then global warming, then all encompassing climate change. Al Gore said the polar caps would be gone in 10 years, 10 years ago. Other disastrous predictions have been made but non have come to pass in such a way as to prove it to the masses. Yeah, OK if and when that happens it will be probably be too late. But right now that is still a big IF. We are either going to burn up, freeze to death or drown. Which is it? I'd like to be better prepared.
    Point by point response. It would be helpful if you included sources for your statements.

    'First it was global cooling, then global warming, then all encompassing climate change.'
    https://skepticalscience.com/history...e-science.html

    This particular page discussed the timeline and development of climate science. Particularly in the 1970s and early 1980s there was earnest debate, and scientists did what they do best - they examined more data from a longer time period. Individual scientists investigated hypotheses and alternative explanations. In 2019, we have lots of data that shows that climate change is occurring. The entire website skeptical science website is helpful, as well as previous links I have posted.

    'Al Gore said the polar caps would be gone in 10 years, 10 years ago.'

    Actual quote
    https://www.azquotes.com/author/5728...climate-change

    'Researchers at the Naval Postgraduate School have told us that the entire Arctic ice cap may totally disappear in summer in as little as five years if nothing is done to curb emissions of greenhouse gas pollution.' is the quote I believe you are referring to.

    2006 article
    https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/articl...hwest-passage/
    BYPETER TYSONMONDAY, FEBRUARY 27, 2006 NOVA
    "Within a decade or two, climatologists predict, the route through the Arctic archipelago could be navigable year-round...To many Arctic experts, such claims are at best overstated—one said the CARC letter "takes the Canadian cake for exaggeration"

    https://www.climate.gov/news-feature...ice-again-2016
    Northwest Passage clear of ice again in 2016

    Leonardo DiCaprio and Al Gore have been among the public figures discussing climate change. If you parse hundreds of statements of public figures, you can find inconsistencies (fact check Donald Trump, for example). Read the peer reviewed publications by scientists and give those documents more support than viewing things through the filters and agendas of various politicians and activists.

    'Other disastrous predictions have been made but non have come to pass in such a way as to prove it to the masses. Yeah, OK if and when that happens it will be probably be too late. But right now that is still a big IF. We are either going to burn up, freeze to death or drown. Which is it? I'd like to be better prepared.'

    Climate change is occurring, the best we can do is mitigate impacts. Here are things that you can do to minimize your footprint on the planet.
    https://davidsuzuki.org/what-you-can...limate-change/
    "We're all f*cked. It helps to remember that." - George Carlin

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    "Hatred can keep you warm when you run out of liquor" - Ray Ratto, Dan Patrick show 1/20/2017

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    Quote Originally Posted by RodrigueGabriel View Post
    Like I said, vehicle turnover is slow, so I'LL give YOU until 2022. (Just kidding.) What could happen is that Congress could tell auto companies to make decreasing numbers of internal combustion vehicles - and increasing numbers of electrics - over time. It could also slap big enough taxes on gasoline (cigarettes anyone?) to make it worth your while to make the switch. On compliance generally: if the Clean Air Act allowed automakers to decide whether to install catalytic converters in 1970, we would all be living under an extremely noxious blanket of smog at this point. Public goods (roads, sewage treatment, etc.) are something that everyone pays for, no matter their desire or level of selfishness. The job of policymakers is to educate citizens about the need for action and to implement policy that makes those changes in a way that minimizes drastic economic impact. If the problem is deemed worthy enough of being addressed to pass legislation, then you gotta obey the law. It's senseless to pass a law that doesn't work. A law that fails to compel people to do things to solve the problem (that they are physically and financially able to do) won't work. You got a better method? I'm all ears. But it actually has to work. Otherwise, I have to assume that you don't really think it's a significant problem.
    I think first you'd have to either entice or force car manufacturers to come up with a viable electric vehicles that average Joe can afford. once that happened, you can force the public to purchase those viable electric vehicle. cant make people buy 100K Teslas

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    Quote Originally Posted by CCCP View Post
    I think first you'd have to either entice or force car manufacturers to come up with a viable electric vehicles that average Joe can afford. once that happened, you can force the public to purchase those viable electric vehicle. cant make people buy 100K Teslas
    You know there's a $35k Tesla now, right? That's still pretty expensive to force people to buy, but it shows that prices are coming down. A Nissan Leaf gets you into the 20s, and more/cheaper models are coming out all the time. This is again a place where incentives should be applied so people don't have to pay a lot more to do the low-carbon thing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CCCP View Post
    I think first you'd have to either entice or force car manufacturers to come up with a viable electric vehicles that average Joe can afford. once that happened, you can force the public to purchase those viable electric vehicle. cant make people buy 100K Teslas
    As we speak: https://www.cnbc.com/2019/04/10/tesl...x-credits.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by CCCP View Post
    I think first you'd have to either entice or force car manufacturers to come up with a viable electric vehicles that average Joe can afford. once that happened, you can force the public to purchase those viable electric vehicle. cant make people buy 100K Teslas
    or the subsidized / rebates to buy the $100k Tesla (and the money comes from....taxes...

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    Quote Originally Posted by RodrigueGabriel View Post
    You know there's a $35k Tesla now, right? That's still pretty expensive to force people to buy, but it shows that prices are coming down. A Nissan Leaf gets you into the 20s, and more/cheaper models are coming out all the time. This is again a place where incentives should be applied so people don't have to pay a lot more to do the low-carbon thing.

    Sent from my [device_name] using http://Blueshirts Brotherhood mobile...ed by Tapatalk
    Again entice? fine Force? NO Govt cannot mandate what I drive or what automakers build. And I don't want to drive a $35k Tesla or Nissan Leaf. I'll keep my Vette and Road Glide thank you
    Last edited by NY Chief; 04-10-2019 at 04:09 PM.

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