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Thread: The New Political Thread: New Rules; New Attitude

  1. #221
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    Quote Originally Posted by NY Chief View Post
    Why is it just FOX they've studied. Again, if you're honest with yourself it is very clear to see and hear the anti trump bias in most of the media and left. It does get tiresome. It does the left no good to be the guy crying wolf and the sky is falling 24/7. I tend to support trump exactly because of that. Not that I think he's terrific person. (IMO still better than all the options at last election cycle)
    Two things are true at the same time in this regard. Mainstream media is objectively terrible right now. This isn't because of some conspiracy against Trump, specifically, though. It's because anti-Trump articles capture eyeballs which sell ads. It is the same reason a conservative outlet like Fox News elevates AOC well past her status and influence. Click.

    So that's the one thing that is true. The other thing that is true is that Trump is a terrible President. Will he surpass Harding and Buchanan as the worst ever? That's the only real question, in my mind.
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  2. #222
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    Quote Originally Posted by AmericanJesus View Post
    Two things are true at the same time in this regard. Mainstream media is objectively terrible right now. This isn't because of some conspiracy against Trump, specifically, though. It's because anti-Trump articles capture eyeballs which sell ads. It is the same reason a conservative outlet like Fox News elevates AOC well past her status and influence. Click.

    So that's the one thing that is true. The other thing that is true is that Trump is a terrible President. Will he surpass Harding and Buchanan as the worst ever? That's the only real question, in my mind.
    Did I just quote my own post? Yes, I did. Because I feel like I should explain why Trump is a terrible President. So here goes:

    He's a brand builder, not a leader. He is willing to engage in any activity that he thinks will benefit the Trump brand, whether it has a positive or negative effect on the country, his companies, his employees, customers, or those with which his companies contract with. That's why he stiffs contractors, set up a bogus degree mill, and marketed shitty steaks.

    Trump has no moral, ethical, or ideological center. He bends with the wind, believing the last thing he has heard from any source that is willing to first inflate his ego. We have seen this first hand when he's allowed cameras into meetings with heads of Congress. He will be going along with democratic ideology one moment, then have to be reminded moments later that it is the opposite of the conservative party's platform on a specific topic. We have also seen it when he's made decisions that are unpopular with the talking heads of Fox News, where he abruptly changes his stance in the face of backlash from the Right.

    Trump props up some of the more brutal and oppressive dictators around the world while at the same time insulting U.S. allies. He lacks any real understanding of foreign policy. While all Presidents rely on their advisors, Trump is either completely beholden to them in terms of foreign policy or throwing them under the bus. And that depends entirely on the news coverage of the decisions he makes on their say so.

    Domestically, he promises jobs in industries that are dying not because of some EPA regulations or a war on the working class, but because technologic innovations make them less and less relevant. Rather than embracing these changes, he tilts against them, and sure, that gets him the support of the displaced, but those people are being misled into thinking that their livelihoods will be saved. They won't. Meanwhile, his tarif wars have made what little manufacturing and farming that still exists in the US more expensive, and guess what? More factories are closing.

    And finally, because it is important, the man can not construct a single, off the cuff, sentence. He's incapable of completing a thought that wasn't carefully prepared for him. His responses to any reporter's question is simply a run on, rambling, incoherency that ends halfway around the world from where the initial thought began. He just has to be suffering from some sort of degenerative brain disease like alzhemers are dimentia.

    Notice I haven't even touched on anything that's fallen under the Mueller investigation? I don't have to. We all know how many people formerly close to the president have taken deals and are either in prison or on their way there. We all know that even if 1/10th of what has been floated about him is true, Trump should be in prison with them, not the White House.

    But Obama...
    But Hillary's emails...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil in Absentia View Post
    Do they, though? I feel like this is a false equivalancy we use to make the idea that FOX isn't actually State news more palatable.

    Vox just released a piece that links to a series of studies done on this very subject of FOX/State news that's worth reading: https://www.vox.com/2019/3/4/1824984...FSOF4iQeUgk_f8

    The reason I say it links is to, hopefully, sidestep the "oh, it's Vox, so I'm not reading it" crowd.
    If we are talking TV I would contrast Sean Hannity with Rachel Maddow.

    Sean Hannity-fox news web content has same synergy as Rachel Maddow-msnbc web content.

    Vox article you link has interesting 'conservative propaganda television' tag-line which may be more effective than 'liberal propaganda television'.

    Cable TV pundits are putting spin on current events and interpreting based on their ideology. I don't hold them to the same standards as print media. When you open a newspaper there are op-ed pieces, a separate section from the rest of the news. Sometimes people get confused between a local news broadcast and a pundit as to what is fact vs opinion. But even the local news broadcast decides what to cover in a 30 minute broadcast. If a local event you care about isn't covered, do you accuse the affiliate of negligence for not covering your local event, or did the affiliate make a decision based on ratings/viewership what to broadcast?
    "We're all f*cked. It helps to remember that." - George Carlin

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    For me, an example of how conspiracy theories and fear can counteract established science to the detriment of community health

    "Even with measles outbreaks across the US, at least 20 states have proposed anti-vaccination bills"
    https://www.cnn.com/2019/03/06/healt...rnd/index.html


    "Why is this happening, especially when the science is clear that outbreaks are more likely when vaccination coverage drops below 95%? And when the record -- according to the American Academy of Pediatrics -- shows that no state has passed legislation expanding non-medical exemptions for vaccinations since 2003?...
    The World Health Organization says vaccination "is one of the most cost-effective ways of avoiding disease" and prevents 2 million to 3 million deaths a year. Even so, the myth that vaccines cause autism and other diseases has persisted. Such claims have frightened parents into refusing to vaccinate, public health experts say, despite decades of medical science showing vaccines to be both safe and a widely successful method of disease prevention."
    "We're all f*cked. It helps to remember that." - George Carlin

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  5. #225
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    Understood and respect the response, this clarifies a lot.

    Personally, I don't think he's worth defending, but that's just me.



  6. #226
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    Quote Originally Posted by fletch View Post
    For me, an example of how conspiracy theories and fear can counteract established science to the detriment of community health

    "Even with measles outbreaks across the US, at least 20 states have proposed anti-vaccination bills"
    https://www.cnn.com/2019/03/06/healt...rnd/index.html


    "Why is this happening, especially when the science is clear that outbreaks are more likely when vaccination coverage drops below 95%? And when the record -- according to the American Academy of Pediatrics -- shows that no state has passed legislation expanding non-medical exemptions for vaccinations since 2003?...
    The World Health Organization says vaccination "is one of the most cost-effective ways of avoiding disease" and prevents 2 million to 3 million deaths a year. Even so, the myth that vaccines cause autism and other diseases has persisted. Such claims have frightened parents into refusing to vaccinate, public health experts say, despite decades of medical science showing vaccines to be both safe and a widely successful method of disease prevention."
    I wouldn't have given the vax thing a second thought. We all got 'em back in the day. But why IS there what seems a like a rise in autism, etc? I have many friends in the medical fields and many do believe there is bad stuff in the modern vaccines. I don't enough to debate but their arguments do make some sense to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AmericanJesus View Post
    Did I just quote my own post? Yes, I did. Because I feel like I should explain why Trump is a terrible President. So here goes:

    He's a brand builder, not a leader. He is willing to engage in any activity that he thinks will benefit the Trump brand, whether it has a positive or negative effect on the country, his companies, his employees, customers, or those with which his companies contract with. That's why he stiffs contractors, set up a bogus degree mill, and marketed shitty steaks.

    Trump has no moral, ethical, or ideological center. He bends with the wind, believing the last thing he has heard from any source that is willing to first inflate his ego. We have seen this first hand when he's allowed cameras into meetings with heads of Congress. He will be going along with democratic ideology one moment, then have to be reminded moments later that it is the opposite of the conservative party's platform on a specific topic. We have also seen it when he's made decisions that are unpopular with the talking heads of Fox News, where he abruptly changes his stance in the face of backlash from the Right.

    Trump props up some of the more brutal and oppressive dictators around the world while at the same time insulting U.S. allies. He lacks any real understanding of foreign policy. While all Presidents rely on their advisors, Trump is either completely beholden to them in terms of foreign policy or throwing them under the bus. And that depends entirely on the news coverage of the decisions he makes on their say so.

    Domestically, he promises jobs in industries that are dying not because of some EPA regulations or a war on the working class, but because technologic innovations make them less and less relevant. Rather than embracing these changes, he tilts against them, and sure, that gets him the support of the displaced, but those people are being misled into thinking that their livelihoods will be saved. They won't. Meanwhile, his tarif wars have made what little manufacturing and farming that still exists in the US more expensive, and guess what? More factories are closing.

    And finally, because it is important, the man can not construct a single, off the cuff, sentence. He's incapable of completing a thought that wasn't carefully prepared for him. His responses to any reporter's question is simply a run on, rambling, incoherency that ends halfway around the world from where the initial thought began. He just has to be suffering from some sort of degenerative brain disease like alzhemers are dimentia.

    Notice I haven't even touched on anything that's fallen under the Mueller investigation? I don't have to. We all know how many people formerly close to the president have taken deals and are either in prison or on their way there. We all know that even if 1/10th of what has been floated about him is true, Trump should be in prison with them, not the White House.

    But Obama...
    But Hillary's emails...
    Those are all good, well documented and reasoned thoughts...until "but Obama, but Hilary". You can't put that laser focus on one individual if that corrupt and not put the same microscope on the other without looking like a partisan hack. IMO, of course

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    Quote Originally Posted by NY Chief View Post
    Those are all good, well documented and reasoned thoughts...until "but Obama, but Hilary". You can't put that laser focus on one individual if that corrupt and not put the same microscope on the other without looking like a partisan hack. IMO, of course
    Even when you put the microscope on both, when dealing in facts, no one is even close to Trump level illegality and corruption.

    I'm not into tin foil hat theories.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NY Chief View Post
    I wouldn't have given the vax thing a second thought. We all got 'em back in the day. But why IS there what seems a like a rise in autism, etc? I have many friends in the medical fields and many do believe there is bad stuff in the modern vaccines. I don't enough to debate but their arguments do make some sense to me.
    https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/articl...-vaccine-myth/

    First is a helpful timeline. Next is analysis.
    "...Why has the myth persisted?
    Two fears powered the unfolding of these events. One was a fear of the unfamiliar ingredients in vaccines, including the mercury-containing preservative thimerosal, which as of mid-2014 was still used in some multidose flu shots but was otherwise phased out of routine childhood vaccines in the United States starting in 2001. The other was a fear of autism, an anxiety fostered by media stories pitting emotional appeals by high-profile anti-vaccine advocates against statistically based reports by medical researchers.

    No link with autism—not to mercury, not to thimerosal, not to any vaccines, including the MMR—has been found.

    These fears persisted even as evidence mounted that they were completely unfounded. Scientific verification relies on a process of testing and confirmation, not on a single observation. Researchers sincerely grappled with the question of a vaccine-autism link in numerous studies following publication of the 1998 Lancet paper. Some of these studies analyzed data from millions of people, in the quest to see if vaccines and autism might be linked. The overwhelming scientific consensus is that they are not..."
    "We're all f*cked. It helps to remember that." - George Carlin

    "How many Cups you've got?" - Esa Tikkanen

    "Hatred can keep you warm when you run out of liquor" - Ray Ratto, Dan Patrick show 1/20/2017

  10. #230
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    Quote Originally Posted by fletch View Post
    https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/articl...-vaccine-myth/

    First is a helpful timeline. Next is analysis.
    "...Why has the myth persisted?
    Two fears powered the unfolding of these events. One was a fear of the unfamiliar ingredients in vaccines, including the mercury-containing preservative thimerosal, which as of mid-2014 was still used in some multidose flu shots but was otherwise phased out of routine childhood vaccines in the United States starting in 2001. The other was a fear of autism, an anxiety fostered by media stories pitting emotional appeals by high-profile anti-vaccine advocates against statistically based reports by medical researchers.

    No link with autism—not to mercury, not to thimerosal, not to any vaccines, including the MMR—has been found.

    These fears persisted even as evidence mounted that they were completely unfounded. Scientific verification relies on a process of testing and confirmation, not on a single observation. Researchers sincerely grappled with the question of a vaccine-autism link in numerous studies following publication of the 1998 Lancet paper. Some of these studies analyzed data from millions of people, in the quest to see if vaccines and autism might be linked. The overwhelming scientific consensus is that they are not..."
    The concern about vaccines goes beyond autism. As far as I can tell, the autism connection is weak at best. But there is another group who's concern is reactions to the shots. https://vaers.hhs.gov/index.html was set up to collect data. Anyone can report an incident and as far as I can tell, no proof is needed to associated the incident to the vaccine.

    Years ago I noticed that even if you considered this data (faulty, bad, questionable)...the years I looked at had more reports of the combination shots (MMR) than the single dose vaccines. Is the only reason for the combination to not give little Johnny more needles? Or is there a profit in play? I know of people who would prefer the single dose. I can recall my first child got some shots the day he was born...by the time I had my last kid they were delaying it a few months. I'm sure that had something to do with reactions as well.

    In short , I'm not a science guy and I failed stats class. But the opposition or concerns should not be lumped into one crowd that thinks vaccines cause autism.
    In 1994 I thought I could die in peace...now I'm hungry again.

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    I like that we're switching gears and talking about issues and not people (politicians or posters).

    Let's keep it going. Green New Deal. Forget who introduced it. What are the key benefits and drawbacks that you support or oppose?

    I haven't honestly done a deep dive but one immediate flag is nothing in it is real, it's just a resolution. That said, it contains a lot of bold suggestions but I think bold action needs to be taken to save the planet.

    The fact that this is sparking a conversation not just along party lines but between generations is also key. The young people who are the next generation of voters are pissed off that they'll inherit a climate disaster.

    What confuses me is that there really is no lack of money to take action. And we should stop acting like the only jobs for folks in Kentucky is coal mining. Train them on new renewable tech.

    These are just some preliminary musings to get the debate rolling.

    Go...!

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    Quote Originally Posted by NY Chief View Post
    I wouldn't have given the vax thing a second thought. We all got 'em back in the day. But why IS there what seems a like a rise in autism, etc? I have many friends in the medical fields and many do believe there is bad stuff in the modern vaccines. I don't enough to debate but their arguments do make some sense to me.
    I think the rise in autism is more that we are more aware of autism and people are actually being diagnosed instead of not being diagnosed.

    There is literally 0 evidence to suggest that vaccines have any correlation with autism.

    also, I would rather be autistic (a lot of people with autism live normal lives) than get polio
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlairBettsBlocksEverything View Post
    I think the rise in autism is more that we are more aware of autism and people are actually being diagnosed instead of not being diagnosed.There is literally 0 evidence to suggest that vaccines have any correlation with autism.

    also, I would rather be autistic (a lot of people with autism live normal lives) than get polio
    exactly. nowdays every little deviance is considered autism. I don't think it was the same 20 years ago

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    I like that we're switching gears and talking about issues and not people (politicians or posters).

    Let's keep it going. Green New Deal. Forget who introduced it. What are the key benefits and drawbacks that you support or oppose?

    I haven't honestly done a deep dive but one immediate flag is nothing in it is real, it's just a resolution. That said, it contains a lot of bold suggestions but I think bold action needs to be taken to save the planet.

    The fact that this is sparking a conversation not just along party lines but between generations is also key. The young people who are the next generation of voters are pissed off that they'll inherit a climate disaster.

    What confuses me is that there really is no lack of money to take action. And we should stop acting like the only jobs for folks in Kentucky is coal mining. Train them on new renewable tech.

    These are just some preliminary musings to get the debate rolling.

    Go...!
    https://townhall.com/columnists/paul...rians-n2542777

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    This is the same old shit. Skeptic science is shot down every day by individual scientists and members of organizations that support the conclusions of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change which is the international group of over 2000 scientists that make those dire predictions. Their findings are endorsed by the National Academy of Sciences, the American Association for the Advancement of Science, NASA, the American Geophysical Union, the American Meteorological Society, the American Physical Society, the Geological Society of America, among a host of others. Who you got?

    Just one resource to check out: J. Cook, et al, "Consensus on consensus: a synthesis of consensus estimates on human-caused global warming," Environmental Research Letters Vol. 11 No. 4, (13 April 2016); DOI:10.1088/1748-9326/11/4/048002

    Quotation from page 6: "The number of papers rejecting AGW [Anthropogenic, or human-caused, Global Warming] is a miniscule proportion of the published research, with the percentage slightly decreasing over time. Among papers expressing a position on AGW, an overwhelming percentage (97.2% based on self-ratings, 97.1% based on abstract ratings) endorses the scientific consensus on AGW.”

    This is not Democrats, evnironmentalists, socialists, AOC, ACP, or the ASPCA. It is the vast bulk of the scientific community. If you don't believe it, it's because you think it comes from the wrong team.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RodrigueGabriel View Post
    ….it comes from the wrong team.
    Who exactly is "the wrong team"?????

    And if MAN MADE climate change is such a dire threat that it must be dealt with immediately or not sooner why isn't any of these genius stating the obvious.... eliminate the source of MAN made climate change....i.e. eliminate MAN

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    Quote Originally Posted by NY Chief View Post
    Who exactly is "the wrong team"?????

    And if MAN MADE climate change is such a dire threat that it must be dealt with immediately or not sooner why isn't any of these genius stating the obvious.... eliminate the source of MAN made climate change....i.e. eliminate MAN
    Your link starts by listing key members of the wrong team: "Democrats, climate campaigners, and renewable energy interests ..." as the evil people who would object to letting a tiny minority of scientists try to re-hijack the climate debate. And they would object. During the past 10 years, climate has been one of the issues that has split most starkly along party lines. Republicans don't think climate is a serious problem. (Didn't used to be true and may be starting to shift back.) Democrats do. In fact, none of that means shit relative to what the science says. And the science is unequivocal.

    Eliminate man? Not following.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NY Chief View Post
    Those are all good, well documented and reasoned thoughts...until "but Obama, but Hilary". You can't put that laser focus on one individual if that corrupt and not put the same microscope on the other without looking like a partisan hack. IMO, of course
    The time to focus on Obama's short comings (of which there were many) was when he was in office or when discussing a history of his presidency. And the time to focus on Hillary's (again many) shortcomings was when she was running for a president.

    The time to NOT do those things are when trying to contrast them to the current occupant of the Oval Office to minimize what he does wrong for the reason you state in your reply. It is partisan hackery designed as a sort of slight of hand.

    Is he going to bring up Hitler? Yup, he's going to bring up Hitler.

    The equivalency would be when Hitler was in power. If one were to normalize his abuses by saying, "what about what Lenin did?" for instance.

    Now Trump is not Hitler. But he's no Jack Kennedy.



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    Quote Originally Posted by NY Chief View Post
    Who exactly is "the wrong team"?????

    And if MAN MADE climate change is such a dire threat that it must be dealt with immediately or not sooner why isn't any of these genius stating the obvious.... eliminate the source of MAN made climate change....i.e. eliminate MAN
    Wait... Hold on... Are you really suggesting that man made climate change is a myth because no scientist has suggested eliminating man as a solution?

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    Quote Originally Posted by NY Chief View Post
    Who exactly is "the wrong team"?????

    And if MAN MADE climate change is such a dire threat that it must be dealt with immediately or not sooner why isn't any of these genius stating the obvious.... eliminate the source of MAN made climate change....i.e. eliminate MAN
    This logic would only work if humans were physically emitting the greenhouse gases from their bodies that are contributing to climate change. For the most part, that is not the case. It is human behaviors that are contributing and so since you are looking for a logical conclusion, that would be to change that behavior.

    And of course, calls to drastically and immediately change those human behaviors are being made by the vast, overwhelming, almost unanimous group of scientists who study climate.

    If this were a murder trial and the evidence was this clear, the judge wouldn't bother even wasting the jury's time deliberating, he'd just start prepping the lethal injection right there in the courtroom.

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