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Thread: Hurricanes Reportedly Want Top-Six Forward 'ASAP'

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Future View Post
    Sorry, I'm not seeing it. They're similar players insofar as they are both offense first, but Faulk's metrics are infinitely more palatable. I recognize that some of this comes from Pionk's usage as a top-pairing player (which we both agree he is far from), but that's only been true of this season. Neither is a particularly large sample size, but if you look at his last two seasons in which he's effectively played about 30 games each, his relative metrics are astronomically bad.

    So, even if you want to dispell the notion that he looks worse because of his usage this season, how do you square that with the fact that in a nearly identical sample size, he had a minus-6.3 CF rel and FF rel last season? Please don't try to sweep all of this up to a 60% dZS either. Because it's basically three percentage points higher than the one he has now.

    Faulk, meanwhile, shows positives in both for his career (albeit just barely).
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  2. #22
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    Need top tier, or potential top tier players. If not, just get picks. No more Namestnikovs and Spooners and McQuaids.
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  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    He's the third pair defender the same way Kucherov and Point are "just second liners" and McD is a Norris Candidate and a "second pair" guy.

    His TOI, OZ% DZ% and metrics are in the realm of Dougie Hamilton (not that I think he's Hamilton), but he gets no PP time.
    Joke's on you. Kucherov and Point is the first line, Stamkos and Gourde is the 2nd (semantics, FTW).

    Define "in the realm of," because Dougie plays 1:30 more per game at 5v5 and has a 62.2% Corsi compared to Pesce at 55.3% while, presumably, playing against the better competition. And not for nothing, but Pesce is the absolute worst of the Canes' regulars in Rel CF. Pesce is their top PKer.

    Pesce is basically a younger, slightly worse version of Tanev/Vlasic/Torts Girardi. You can throw them on the first pair, sure, but they're not really #1 defenders and don't move the needle for a rebuilding team at all. They're the kind of guys who are pretty much always available if you need one. I'm not trading Hayes for that.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil in Absentia View Post
    Sorry, I'm not seeing it. They're similar players insofar as they are both offense first, but Faulk's metrics are infinitely more palatable. I recognize that some of this comes from Pionk's usage as a top-pairing player (which we both agree he is far from), but that's only been true of this season. Neither is a particularly large sample size, but if you look at his last two seasons in which he's effectively played about 30 games each, his relative metrics are astronomically bad.

    So, even if you want to dispell the notion that he looks worse because of his usage this season, how do you square that with the fact that in a nearly identical sample size, he had a minus-6.3 CF rel and FF rel last season? Please don't try to sweep all of this up to a 60% dZS either. Because it's basically three percentage points higher than the one he has now.

    Faulk, meanwhile, shows positives in both for his career (albeit just barely).
    I was kidding lol.

    Though I don't think Faulk is nearly the player he was in 2015.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Future View Post
    Joke's on you. Kucherov and Point is the first line, Stamkos and Gourde is the 2nd (semantics, FTW).
    Nope.

    Define "in the realm of," because Dougie plays 1:30 more per game at 5v5 and has a 62.2% Corsi compared to Pesce at 55.3% while, presumably, playing against the better competition. And not for nothing, but Pesce is the absolute worst of the Canes' regulars in Rel CF. Pesce is their top PKer.

    Pesce is basically a younger, slightly worse version of Tanev/Vlasic/Torts Girardi. You can throw them on the first pair, sure, but they're not really #1 defenders and don't move the needle for a rebuilding team at all. They're the kind of guys who are pretty much always available if you need one. I'm not trading Hayes for that.
    Well, you only look at Corsi and I gave 3 other categories, but whatever.

    Pesce is one of the only player on the Canes who is on the + side of the ledger, and I know we all like to cling to Corsi and shit on +/-, but when one guy is +4 and another guy -8, that's a something to note. Slavin is also -13, make of that what you will.

    Vlasic or Tanev might be a good comparable, but especially with Vlasic you're de-valuing him and over-valuing Hayes. Pesce is cost known and fills a need (stability on D). I don't think I really want to pay Hayes what he's going to get, and obviously the deal would probably not be 1:1, anyway.

  6. #26
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    Dan Girardi just won't die.

    Fucking legend.

  7. #27
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    pass on this. believe there will be a better deal to be had.
    Acqua in bocca

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    Nope.

    Well, you only look at Corsi and I gave 3 other categories, but whatever.

    Pesce is one of the only player on the Canes who is on the + side of the ledger, and I know we all like to cling to Corsi and shit on +/-, but when one guy is +4 and another guy -8, that's a something to note. Slavin is also -13, make of that what you will.

    Vlasic or Tanev might be a good comparable, but especially with Vlasic you're de-valuing him and over-valuing Hayes. Pesce is cost known and fills a need (stability on D). I don't think I really want to pay Hayes what he's going to get, and obviously the deal would probably not be 1:1, anyway.
    Yep. Only variance is that they fucked around with Stamkos for the first couple games of the season.

    OZS and DZS aren't performance related and don't tell how a player is playing unless you use shot metrics to qualify them. "One of the only" is pretty misleading, since half of their defense (de Haan (1st in +/-, 1st in PDO) and Faulk(3rd in +/-, 3rd in PDO) are both positive as well. +/- is lar product of PDO, where Pesce is numero dos in both categories of their regulars.

    I'm not saying don't trade Hayes, I'm just saying that Pesce is a low return for him. If you move Hayes, you absolutely have to get upside back. Pesce is a fine enough complimentary player, but he doesn't move the needle for this organization, so what is really the point?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Future View Post
    Stopped reading here.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Future View Post

    I'm not saying don't trade Hayes, I'm just saying that Pesce is a low return for him. If you move Hayes, you absolutely have to get upside back. Pesce is a fine enough complimentary player, but he doesn't move the needle for this organization, so what is really the point?
    Pesce is a huge return for a rental and there is no chance of Carolina flipping him for Hayes.
    I’m not sure how you think we’ll get a player who “moves the needle” for him tbh, we’re talking a 1st and one or two prospects.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil in Absentia View Post
    LozoSigh.gif

    Please, Mike — show me the planet in which those two players are even remotely alike.
    Quote Originally Posted by Future View Post
    Lol well played. That was funny.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    Stopped reading here.
    Why? Because it shows that Point-Kucherov is the actual first line? lol

    Do you.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Future View Post
    Why? Because it shows that Point-Kucherov is the actual first line? lol

    Do you.
    ES TOI to date doesn't indicate who the first line is today.

    It's also a stupid thing to argue over since the entire point is that being on the "second line" on Tampa is like being "behind" Hamilton and Faulk. They're great players, so the fact pesce slots in behind them doesn't make him "third pair" on most teams.

    But the fact you're willing to argue over the semantic makes me not want to waste time on it.

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    ES TOI to date doesn't indicate who the first line is today.

    It's also a stupid thing to argue over since the entire point is that being on the "second line" on Tampa is like being "behind" Hamilton and Faulk. They're great players, so the fact pesce slots in behind them doesn't make him "third pair" on most teams.

    But the fact you're willing to argue over the semantic makes me not want to waste time on it.
    That's exactly what it does. I actually scaled back into October because, if I only went since, say November 1, you would have just said "this doesn't account for the whole season." The numbers are more distinct the closer you get to today. Nov. 15 to current Dec 1 to current

    I know it's semantic, and I didn't disagree with your point.

  15. #35
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    OK

  16. #36
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    A canes' 1st has potential to be very valuable. They'd be a curveball trade partner considering I can't recall a single trade we've made with them, but I think they're a good fit.
    GORTON 2020

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    Quote Originally Posted by ThirtyONE View Post
    A canes' 1st has potential to be very valuable. They'd be a curveball trade partner considering I can't recall a single trade we've made with them, but I think they're a good fit.
    Eric Staal

    Speaking of which, remember when everyone freaked out because Saarela had 10 points in 9 games for the Checkers after the trade? Still hasn't played an NHL game.

  18. #38
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    Those are probably the same people who thought Ronning and Day were actual prospects.

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Long live the King View Post
    Eric Staal

    Speaking of which, remember when everyone freaked out because Saarela had 10 points in 9 games for the Checkers after the trade? Still hasn't played an NHL game.
    Ah true. Jeez, that trade was so useless I completely forgot about it.

    I think people freaked out because Saarela was supposed to be our best prospect.... Really fucking sad statement there.
    GORTON 2020

  20. #40
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    In regards to the metrics, Kevin Shattenkirk is in the top three on the team and has the best of all our defenseman. Does that mean he's our best defenseman? Not likely.

    Sent from my SM-N900T using Blueshirts Brotherhood mobile app powered by Tapatalk

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