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Thread: Kevin Hayes is More to Rangers Than a Potential Trade Chip

  1. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    I know! So how isn't he a #1?
    \_(ツ)_/

    Zib is a lot like Stepan, in terms of how they are a #1. On a team that can roll lines and sort of have a 1A and 1B with good wingers, he's absolutely effective. I think people who don't consider Zib a #1 expect every #1 to be a 22:00/night dominant player, when that's just not the reality of the league.

    The only way Zib isn't a #1 is if you say "not every team in the league has a #1 C," but nobody ever does that leg work.
    Last edited by Future; 12-06-2018 at 01:38 PM.

  2. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by Future View Post
    \_(ツ)_/

    Zib is a lot like Stepan, in terms of how they are a #1. On a team that can roll lines and sort of have a 1A and 1B with good wingers, he's absolutely effective. I think people who don't consider Zib a #1 expect every #1 to be a 22:00/night dominant player, when that's just not the reality of the league.

    The only way Zib isn't a #1 is if you say "not every team in the league has a #1 C," but nobody ever does that leg work.
    Stepan never paced 70+ points or was the PP threat that Zib is. And Zib has the size to go up against other big men.

    He's really developed into a great player who doesn't get talked about because the team sucks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    Stepan never paced 70+ points or was the PP threat that Zib is. And Zib has the size to go up against other big men.

    He's really developed into a great player who doesn't get talked about because the team sucks.
    Well yea he's better than Stepan, but he's a #1 in the same way that Stepan was.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Future View Post
    No, I said he is "one of the better 5v5, two way Cs." I said that on purpose to take him out of the context of Barkov/Bergeron. Your argument is that he's not as good as those guys b/c of a bunch of subjective reasons, but that means he's not worth $9m, not $6.

    I'm asking you to name ANY centers who signed as a UFA for less than $6m who play the same type of game and are in the same range in terms of production. $6m is essentially the going rate for what Hayes is, so the idea that a contract like that would be a deterrent is totally baseless. He is a good second-line center who can score when given talented linemates and can play well in a checking role.

    If you just look at a small sample set - since the start of November - he has 10 EVP in 16 games. That's one less than ROR and one more than Anze Kopitar (17 games). In total, he has 13 points in 16 games - more than Ryan Johansen ($8m, 16 games) and RNH ($6m, 17 games). So when given the opportunity with talented linemates, he's producing at a clip comparable to superior players (ROR and Kopitar) who make way more, and outpacing peers (Johansen and RNH), whose contracts would be benchmarks. Does that translate to an entire season, no, but that's why Hayes is closer to a $6m guy than an $8m guy. If Hayes continues at the same clip the rest of the season, especially compared to those guys, $6m is a steal, not a deterrent, especially since those guys signed when the cap was lower.

    If Hayes goes UFA, don't be shocked if he gets $7m, b/c that's where his value is relative to the rest of the league.
    I don't understand how his value as a UFA is in any way relevant, because what I said was that I think that contract is a deterrent when a GM has to give up the assets we'd want (top prospects & picks, or possibly a top 4 d) in return AND pay him north of 6m. I'm not saying it's impossible to move him, I'm saying it becomes significantly more difficult and the amount of potential takers will be significantly fewer.
    I'm also not sure why "one of the better 5v5, two way C's" takes him out of the context of, you know, the better 5v5, two way C's.
    You can say it's all based on subjective reasons, but I think most people would agree he's an incredibly inconsistent player whose performances ranges from the excellent to the absolutely dreadful on a regular basis. That he produces in spurts is an actual fact. Again, I think many GM's will think twice before giving away significant assets AND paying a player like that 6m+.

    I do agree that as an UFA he's highly likely to get north of 6m, but that's without having to give up assets for him which obviously changes the picture.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gravesy View Post
    I don't understand how his value as a UFA is in any way relevant, because what I said was that I think that contract is a deterrent when a GM has to give up the assets we'd want (top prospects & picks, or possibly a top 4 d) in return AND pay him north of 6m. I'm not saying it's impossible to move him, I'm saying it becomes significantly more difficult and the amount of potential takers will be significantly fewer.
    I'm also not sure why "one of the better 5v5, two way C's" takes him out of the context of, you know, the better 5v5, two way C's.
    You can say it's all based on subjective reasons, but I think most people would agree he's an incredibly inconsistent player whose performances ranges from the excellent to the absolutely dreadful on a regular basis. That he produces in spurts is an actual fact. Again, I think many GM's will think twice before giving away significant assets AND paying a player like that 6m+.

    I do agree that as an UFA he's highly likely to get north of 6m, but that's without having to give up assets for him which obviously changes the picture.
    Ok well "one of the better" and "best" are different to me. The Barkov and Bergerons are in the "best" conversation. But, semantics.

    I guess I don't get what your point is, tbh. The Rangers aren't going to sign him and then trade him this year, and to some teams, a player who is under contract long term could be more valuable. If you don't think teams want to sign and extend him, that's fine, but it's got nothing to do with his price tag.

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    I don't ever think Hayes is dreadful. When he's "on", he's almost a Thorton-lite (emphasis on "almost", and "lite") and he's dominant on draws.

    When he's off, he's infuriating because he holds the puck too long, tries to make impossible passes, is getting manhandled in the dot and looks like he's high.

    With that^^^ said, he's always a responsible defensive player who's hard to take the puck from. It's that he either looks very good or very bad because he has the puck on his stick so much, it's magnified.

    But he's never Cody McLeod. #NeverClump

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    Quote Originally Posted by Future View Post
    Ok well "one of the better" and "best" are different to me. The Barkov and Bergerons are in the "best" conversation. But, semantics.

    I guess I don't get what your point is, tbh. The Rangers aren't going to sign him and then trade him this year, and to some teams, a player who is under contract long term could be more valuable. If you don't think teams want to sign and extend him, that's fine, but it's got nothing to do with his price tag.
    Fair enough.
    The original point was a response to someone saying something to the effect of "we should sign him and then look to trade him down the line in order to maximize the return" instead of trading him at the deadline for what will likely be a 1st and a prospect(s).
    I just don't think it's that easy to move him on for what we'd want when he's on a big contract, because even though he's got the tools there are some serious question marks over him as a player.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    I don't ever think Hayes is dreadful. When he's "on", he's almost a Thorton-lite (emphasis on "almost", and "lite") and he's dominant on draws.

    When he's off, he's infuriating because he holds the puck too long, tries to make impossible passes, is getting manhandled in the dot and looks like he's high.

    With that^^^ said, he's always a responsible defensive player who's hard to take the puck from. It's that he either looks very good or very bad because he has the puck on his stick so much, it's magnified.

    But he's never Cody McLeod. #NeverClump
    This is basically how I feel about him as well. To me, he is a lot like Dubinsky. I hate when he holds the puck for too long, it makes me yell at my TV.

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    He Doesn't shoot the puck enough. One of the more frustrating players to watch.

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    That's a weird thing to say the day after he scored 2 goals, but okay.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuc View Post
    That's a weird thing to say the day after he scored 2 goals, but okay.
    I know man, but good god!!! How many opportunities does he get to shoot the puck??? I counted 11 last night, and instead he elects to pass.

    His decision making I think needs some improvement....but this kid's GOTTA shoot more. He's got the talent to score a lot more than he does. His extra pass on that 3rd period PP that deflected out of the zone was a shitty choice. If the Rangers get a goal there, it's still a game.

    Needless to say, there were lots of bad choices last night in the 3rd. Hayes just HAS TO SHOOT MORE.

    Zucc man, the 2 goals were great...don't get me wrong....but The loss resonates when he's the guy that has to step up and grab the bull by the balls in the 3rd period. That's what Stamkos did! ....and that's why I think Hayes lacks that #1 center mentality right now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ozzy View Post
    I know man, but good god!!! How many opportunities does he get to shoot the puck??? I counted 11 last night, and instead he elects to pass.

    His decision making I think needs some improvement....but this kid's GOTTA shoot more. He's got the talent to score a lot more than he does. His extra pass on that 3rd period PP that deflected out of the zone was a shitty choice. If the Rangers get a goal there, it's still a game.

    Needless to say, there were lots of bad choices last night in the 3rd. Hayes just HAS TO SHOOT MORE.

    Zucc man, the 2 goals were great...don't get me wrong....but The loss resonates when he's the guy that has to step up and grab the bull by the balls in the 3rd period. That's what Stamkos did! ....and that's why I think Hayes lacks that #1 center mentality right now.
    I couldnt watch the game, so I dont know. I agree tho, Hayes has to shoot more, but Ive given up on that, he is what he is at this moment.

    Hayes lacks everything to be a #1C, he will never be that. The question is if he can be a good enough #2C on a good contending team. I have my doubts about that too.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Zuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuc View Post
    I couldnt watch the game, so I dont know. I agree tho, Hayes has to shoot more, but I’ve given up on that, he is what he is at this moment.

    Hayes lacks everything to be a #1C, he will never be that. The question is if he can be a good enough #2C on a good contending team. I have my doubts about that too.


    Sent from my iPhone using Blueshirts Brotherhood mobile app powered by Tapatalk
    He just comes off as one of those hot and cold players; A lot like Kreider seems to me. He can be so good at times and disappear for long stretches. I hardly noticed CK last night.

    Now I know it's a long season and guys go through droughts and crap like that, but I just don't feel it with Hayes. Kreider has his moments but I can at least "feel" Kreider out there most games. I think we sell high on Hayes and hope we strike gold with the return. I can't see paying him a ton for 5 or 6 years. He comes off like a guy who once he signs, he goes flat on us.

    We've seen enough of that!

  14. #174
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    Save the money offersheet Laine, Mathews, Marner, Rantanen, Tkachuk, Piont or Meier.


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    Maybe Mathews but Toronto would match. Others would take drastic overpayments for teams not to match.
    Lias Andersson for #AJT2019

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.wiskers View Post
    Save the money offersheet Laine, Mathews, Marner, Rantanen, Tkachuk, Piont or Meier.


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    I like the thought, but none of those guys are going anywhere lol

    In all honesty, AM34 might be the most likely to leave on an offer sheet. Between the fact that he's actually worth 4 first-round picks, friction with Babcock (who knows) and maybe Dubas getting too cute, it seems more likely than the others. But it's still about 1 in a million.

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    TTMFA
    Acqua in bocca

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    Quote Originally Posted by Future View Post
    I like the thought, but none of those guys are going anywhere lol

    In all honesty, AM34 might be the most likely to leave on an offer sheet. Between the fact that he's actually worth 4 first-round picks, friction with Babcock (who knows) and maybe Dubas getting too cute, it seems more likely than the others. But it's still about 1 in a million.
    Dubas might be smug enough to say “fine, fuck off, we’ll take the picks”

    (I’ve always said, if a guy signs to play with another team - screw him)
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    What was their record without Mathews (hurt) and Nylander?
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    Quote Originally Posted by josh View Post
    What was their record without Mathews (hurt) and Nylander?
    Speaking of Matthews, who else is down to give him an offer sheet if he makes it to July 1st? We've had 5 first round picks the past 2 years. We will have, at least, another 1 this year. I'd be willing to give up the next 4 for an elite, young center like Matthews.

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