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Thread: Kevin Hayes is More to Rangers Than a Potential Trade Chip

  1. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by Long live the King View Post
    Crosby has a whopping 4 more points than Zibanejad, so I doubt Fast would have twice the points.

    His career high is 51 points due to injuries not lack of skill.

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    Crosby missed time. What’s the ppg rates for the 2?
    Lias Andersson for #AJT2019

  2. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by Long live the King View Post
    Crosby has a whopping 4 more points than Zibanejad, so I doubt Fast would have twice the points.

    His career high is 51 points due to injuries not lack of skill.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Long live the King View Post
    I've seen him produce great with Kreider, he just battled injuries the last two years.

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    Lias Andersson for #AJT2019

  3. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by Long live the King View Post
    Crosby has a whopping 4 more points than Zibanejad, so I doubt Fast would have twice the points.

    His career high is 51 points due to injuries not lack of skill.

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    I don't see how you can prove this. Fact is he's never broken 51 points in 6 NHL seasons. Hurt or not, he's not a reliable point getter.
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  4. #144
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    To me, paying Hayes comes down to how we view Zibanejad. If he’s a legit 1C, you pay Hayes to 2C. If Zibanejad is your 2C, you pay a scoring winger.
    Lias Andersson for #AJT2019

  5. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by josh View Post
    To me, paying Hayes comes down to how we view Zibanejad. If he’s a legit 1C, you pay Hayes to 2C. If Zibanejad is your 2C, you pay a scoring winger.
    And I don't think paying Hayes is even an option. You can't have two sub 50 point centers taking up space. We need talent. Use his money to pay someone. Use the 1st round pick you receive to draft skill. Hopefully one of Chytil, Howden or Andersson grow into that 1C roll in a couple of years.
    GORTON 2020

  6. #146
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    So... I guess Hayes getting the "C" is a no.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Future View Post
    Hayes is one of the better 5v5, two-way centers in the entire league, and plays a two-way game. He scored 25 goals last year. Find me 5 guys in the league who aren't on their ELC who do that and make less than $6m.

    What he does playing on Auston Matthews wing isn't representative of what he'd do playing on Mika Zibanejad...or Kevin Hayes...wing.

    Hockey fans have a horrible habit at looking in production in one situation and just assuming that it would translate to another. What if Nylander struggles to score 60 in NY because - SHOCKER - the Rangers have exactly 1 player who can shoot the puck. *Gasp
    Hayes isn't on the level of those guys because he isn't dependable. The best 2-way c's in the league show up every night, on every shift and can be depended on to play a responsible game and maintaining performance levels.
    With Hayes, it's impossible to say which version shows up. He takes nights off. He goes cold for long stretches where he doesn't produce and doesn't contribute much in either zone, then gets on a run and produces in spurts. He's nowhere near the better 2-way centers for that very reason, even though his 5v5 production over the course of a season seen in isolation is quite good. He has the tools, but lacks the mentality. That's why he'll always be a middling player instead of a great one, and why I think a lot of GM's will think twice about giving up the assets we'll ask for AND paying him north of 6m.

    I also think you're underrating Nylander. This isn't a case of the Namesntikovs, where an ok player is being propped up by two great ones. Nylander is a really, really good player. It obviously helps playing with one of the best players in the world, but I'm confident he'll produce on any top line in the league.

  8. #148
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    ^ Most Excellent. Gravesy.

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  9. #149
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    Zib on Pace for 73 points playing against other teams top lines.

    Hayes on Pace for 50 points.

    Zib is a #1 center. Hayes isn't even close to what Zib is.

  10. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by CBrowningPI View Post
    So... I guess Hayes getting the "C" is a no.

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    fuck no,Hayes spells mediocre,that's what this team will be with him as a number two center

  11. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThirtyONE View Post
    I don't see how you can prove this. Fact is he's never broken 51 points in 6 NHL seasons. Hurt or not, he's not a reliable point getter.
    2016-2017: Started out on a 65 point pace through 19 games. Then his leg snapped. Once he got his game back together he finished the year, 17 regular season and 12 playoff games, at a 62 point pace.

    2017-2018: Started out on a 75 point pace through 24 games. Then he got concussed. Once he got his game back together he finished the year at a 73 point pace over the final 18 games. (Plus if you want to count it he was over a ppg at the Worlds)

    2018-2019: Through 28 games he's on pace for 73 points. Playing with an at best 3rd liner in Fast.



    I think two things are pretty clear.

    1) Despite those pretty significant injuries, he continued to get better through his early 20's.
    2) He'd easily be a ppg player with wingers like Panarin and Kravstov.

  12. #152
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    Zib is miles ahead of Hayes, especially now that he's starting to take the tougher matchups aswell.

    I dont care about who's 1,2,3 or 4 but Zib, Chytil, Howden, Lias has the potential and is looking to be a REALLY solid C-depth for the next decade.

    Trade Hayes and Zuc for futures or D/W. Its an easy desicion to make.

  13. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by CBrowningPI View Post
    Hayes is .61 PPG. I can't see how that's considered near.

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    He's 12 in 14 since they put him with Kreider and Chytil - by far the most talent he's ever played with on the wing.

    Nobody is saying he's an 80-point player, but he can be a 60-point, defensively strong 2nd-line center. That's worth $6m all day.

  14. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gravesy View Post
    Hayes isn't on the level of those guys because he isn't dependable. The best 2-way c's in the league show up every night, on every shift and can be depended on to play a responsible game and maintaining performance levels.
    Find me the 5 guys then.

    Every player in the NHL takes shifts/games off. Hayes is about as responsible defensively as it gets. Who are these 2-way Cs that everyone seems to want to say Hayes is worse than? Nobody can name a single one lol. I'm not saying that he's Bergeron or Barkov, but the guys with his skillset who aren't on ELCs just don't exist. People are comparing Hayes to ideals.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    Zib on Pace for 73 points playing against other teams top lines.

    Hayes on Pace for 50 points.

    Zib is a #1 center. Hayes isn't even close to what Zib is.
    Zib's production is pretty incredible considering the fact that he has fucking 4th liners on his wings.

  16. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by josh View Post
    We’ve seen him produce less with the more talented wingers.

    If a guy is producing more with less, why change that?
    Put Chytil with Panarin and Kravtsov, then, his production doubles while Zibanejad is still producing on the 2nd line. Maximize the production of all the players.

    Or, you get a Panarin and save the Hayes money for an upgrade on Zibanejad’s wing.

    All I’m saying is Zibanejad has been producing with less. If you are trying to convince me he’s a 1C, then we definitely need to pay Hayes to keep him as our 2C. I’d much rather use 6m+ for elite/scoring wingers. And Zibanejad’s progress has allowed them to do that.
    Josh, you are over complicating this. If anybody is a top line/pair player on this team it is Z. As you said, he continues to produce with lesser talent on his wing, probably less than any other 1C. He has continued to ascend thru his tenure on the Rangers, even his D has gone from OK to good to very good to...

    We get to watch Zib every game, and some things become undeniable even if you don't focus on him. He drives play and is often two steps ahead (mentally, then physically) of any teammate during the course of a play. Last year there were countless times it seemed he was teaching the game/play (where he was going and what he was doing) to Kreider who is supposed to be our most talented winger.

    He has brilliant hockey aptitude, is fast and makes quick decisions. If you watch him like a scout, he has more talent than any current Ranger (outside of possibly Chytil) and has a complete set of skills. Give him guys with a high hockey IQ and top talent and Z becomes lethal.

    Put Z with the guys Crosby, Kuz, Schiefele, Bergeron, Stamkos, etc, get to play with and you are not questioning him as a #1C. Hell, give him crappy Ottawa's Tkachuk, Stone and Chabot on D and a PPG is money.

    BTW, this doesn't mean Hayes wouldn't be a tremendous asset as a 3C on a Championship contender. The issues are unrelated, even if Z's D is almost stellar. Actually it is Howden and Lias who make Hayes an asset that may be moved. The depth at the 2C and 3C spot, along with his contract and our need for wingers and top 4 Dmen is what makes him a logical target.
    Last edited by Giacomin; 12-06-2018 at 12:26 PM.

  17. #157
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    Bottom line, everyone I watch the games with notices how many more points Z would have if his teammate would have made the play. Or the right play, or received the pass, or saw him cutting to the net, etc. We don't see it with such regularity with any other Ranger because they are not as dynamic, smart and quick a player.

    The good news is that we are starting to see that some with Howden who thinks the game at a much higher level than his linemates. We also saw it with Chytil, granted partly because he was saddled with inept linemates and guys not near his level. The bad news is that we need more talented wingers and scorers and dmen.

  18. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by Future View Post
    Find me the 5 guys then.

    Every player in the NHL takes shifts/games off. Hayes is about as responsible defensively as it gets. Who are these 2-way Cs that everyone seems to want to say Hayes is worse than? Nobody can name a single one lol. I'm not saying that he's Bergeron or Barkov, but the guys with his skillset who aren't on ELCs just don't exist. People are comparing Hayes to ideals.
    Dude, you said he’s one of the best 2 way c’s in the league. I argued against that. Now it appears we’re not allowed to name the best ones. I’m not sure where you’re going with this tbh.

    I stand by my original statement; Hayes on a 6m+ deal is going to be a deterrent if we’re looking to trade him.

  19. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by Future View Post
    Zib's production is pretty incredible considering the fact that he has fucking 4th liners on his wings.
    I know! So how isn't he a #1?

  20. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gravesy View Post
    Dude, you said he’s one of the best 2 way c’s in the league. I argued against that. Now it appears we’re not allowed to name the best ones. I’m not sure where you’re going with this tbh.

    I stand by my original statement; Hayes on a 6m+ deal is going to be a deterrent if we’re looking to trade him.
    No, I said he is "one of the better 5v5, two way Cs." I said that on purpose to take him out of the context of Barkov/Bergeron. Your argument is that he's not as good as those guys b/c of a bunch of subjective reasons, but that means he's not worth $9m, not $6.

    I'm asking you to name ANY centers who signed as a UFA for less than $6m who play the same type of game and are in the same range in terms of production. $6m is essentially the going rate for what Hayes is, so the idea that a contract like that would be a deterrent is totally baseless. He is a good second-line center who can score when given talented linemates and can play well in a checking role.

    If you just look at a small sample set - since the start of November - he has 10 EVP in 16 games. That's one less than ROR and one more than Anze Kopitar (17 games). In total, he has 13 points in 16 games - more than Ryan Johansen ($8m, 16 games) and RNH ($6m, 17 games). So when given the opportunity with talented linemates, he's producing at a clip comparable to superior players (ROR and Kopitar) who make way more, and outpacing peers (Johansen and RNH), whose contracts would be benchmarks. Does that translate to an entire season, no, but that's why Hayes is closer to a $6m guy than an $8m guy. If Hayes continues at the same clip the rest of the season, especially compared to those guys, $6m is a steal, not a deterrent, especially since those guys signed when the cap was lower.

    If Hayes goes UFA, don't be shocked if he gets $7m, b/c that's where his value is relative to the rest of the league.

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