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    Quote Originally Posted by josh View Post
    see - that's the issue, you've turned Nationalism into a bad word. In a short time, patriotism will have a negative connotation.

    google "Is nationalism a bad word", and you wont find anything before 2015
    I've seen better dodges in a junkyard. Answer the question.

    Also, try Googling something more substantive than asking whether or not nationalism is a "bad word". You might find one of the literally thousands of scholarly articles about the contribution of nationalism to ethnic tensions, world wars, and how it's probably the single most defining force of the end of the 19th and first half of the 20th century.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CCCP View Post
    some idiot with a twitter account equated nationalism to white nationalism. now everyone thinks nationalism is the same as Nazism. thanks social media
    This isn't really true, though. Nationalism is effectively, by definition, patriotism on steroids. I know that dictionaries are descriptive, not prescriptive, but look at the secondary and tertiary entries across almost any of them.

    "an extreme form of this, especially marked by a feeling of superiority over other countries."

    "excessive patriotism; chauvinism."

    "Identification with one's own nation and support for its interests, especially to the exclusion or detriment of the interests of other nations."

    There's also a reason it stands in such contrast to our political atmosphere. We're a pluralistic society. Nationalism is an antonym of that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil in Absentia View Post
    This isn't really true, though. Nationalism is effectively, by definition, patriotism on steroids. I know that dictionaries are descriptive, not prescriptive, but look at the secondary and tertiary entries across almost any of them.

    "an extreme form of this, especially marked by a feeling of superiority over other countries."

    "excessive patriotism; chauvinism."

    "Identification with one's own nation and support for its interests, especially to the exclusion or detriment of the interests of other nations."

    There's also a reason it stands in such contrast to our political atmosphere. We're a pluralistic society. Nationalism is an antonym of that.
    you mean nationalism is equated to racism? but that's on whackos who made that correlation, not on what Nationalism is. What's wrong with caring for your own country? im an American, why in the fuck should I care for Uganda or Honduras unless it benefits me in some way?

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    Quote Originally Posted by CCCP View Post
    you mean nationalism is equated to racism? but that's on whackos who made that correlation, not on what Nationalism is. What's wrong with caring for your own country? im an American, why in the fuck should I care for Uganda or Honduras unless it benefits me in some way?
    No, it lends to the type of thinking racists operate with because it functions on a very similar wavelength of superiority over plurality. Which is why racists tend so often to be nationalists. It's not as though there isn't a history of this kind of ethno-state thinking all over the globe, either.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CCCP View Post
    you mean nationalism is equated to racism? but that's on whackos who made that correlation, not on what Nationalism is. What's wrong with caring for your own country? im an American, why in the fuck should I care for Uganda or Honduras unless it benefits me in some way?
    Mostly because you like coffee, and both of those countries are big time coffee exporters.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil in Absentia View Post
    No, it lends to the type of thinking racists operate with because it functions on a very similar wavelength of superiority over plurality. Which is why racists tend so often to be nationalists. It's not as though there isn't a history of this kind of ethno-state thinking all over the globe, either.
    again, when nationalism is equated to Nazism, which it shouldn't. I think you're confusing nationalism with white nationalism, which is racist

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    Quote Originally Posted by G1000 View Post
    Mostly because you like coffee, and both of those countries are big time coffee exporters.
    then we must keep them in their countries working, otherwise how am I going to get my coffee?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil in Absentia View Post
    "Identification with one's own nation and support for its interests, especially to the exclusion or detriment of the interests of other nations."
    One of the inherent problems is this sees human existence, surviving and thriving as a zero sum game. This is likely very faulty thinking and works against shared knowledge, experiences and expertises. Excluding and smiting the nearest perceived threat appeals to our primitive instincts, but runs counter to a civilization's ability to survive and thrive.

    There's also a reason it stands in such contrast to our political atmosphere. We're a pluralistic society. Nationalism is an antonym of that.
    Glad you raised this very important concept. This is among the key elements that enabled this country to excel to such an extent so far. Our inclusiveness, which overcame unfounded nationalistic prejudice here and abroad. Bottom line, we are a pluralistic nation. The problems an individual or nation faces should almost never be put others based on race, prejudice, scapegoating a harmless minority group or vilifying those who fairly report the news of our nation and the world.

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    Also, to answer your question about why you should care about Uganda or Honduras: Because (I'd hope) you believe in a pluralistic society in which many ideas can be welcomed to form a common set of national beliefs (e Pluribus Unum). Also, because there's a moral obligation to care about the well-being of your fellow humans given the thin margins that separate us from them. Look how close we are to autocracy right now. Self-inflicted, no less.
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    Nationalism -- "patriotic feeling, principles, or efforts." Why are you guys equating nationalism to racism?

    we are close to autocracy? how did you get that?

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    Quote Originally Posted by CCCP View Post
    some idiot with a twitter account equated nationalism to white nationalism. now everyone thinks nationalism is the same as Nazism. thanks social media
    Same way people think democratic socialism is communism?

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    Simon, dictionaries are descriptive, not prescriptive. They describe words as we use them and often have deeper meaning in context beyond the first entry in any given volume. Also listed among various entries under nationalism:

    "an extreme form of this, especially marked by a feeling of superiority over other countries."

    "excessive patriotism; chauvinism."

    "Identification with one's own nation and support for its interests, especially to the exclusion or detriment of the interests of other nations."

    Why it's equated to racism is because racism operates on the same wavelength regarding the superiority element of nationalism. Both are antithetical to pluralism, which this country was built on.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CCCP View Post
    you mean nationalism is equated to racism? but that's on whackos who made that correlation, not on what Nationalism is. What's wrong with caring for your own country? im an American, why in the fuck should I care for Uganda or Honduras unless it benefits me in some way?
    So you never do anything the benefits anyone but you, ever?

    Sounds like a shitty way to live.

    Also, "a rising tide lifts all boats". When the world is doing well, we are all doing well.

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    A Hitch quote for everything:

    “Internationalism is the highest form of patriotism.”
    "Everyone says you should be a good loser. If you’re a good loser, you’re a loser."
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    "Never be a spectator of unfairness or stupidity. Seek out argument and disputation for their own sake; the grave will supply plenty of time for silence."
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil in Absentia View Post
    Simon, dictionaries are descriptive, not prescriptive. They describe words as we use them and often have deeper meaning in context beyond the first entry in any given volume. Also listed among various entries under nationalism:

    "an extreme form of this, especially marked by a feeling of superiority over other countries."

    "excessive patriotism; chauvinism."

    "Identification with one's own nation and support for its interests, especially to the exclusion or detriment of the interests of other nations."

    Why it's equated to racism is because racism operates on the same wavelength regarding the superiority element of nationalism. Both are antithetical to pluralism, which this country was built on.
    this country was also built on fatman and little boy to save American lives. And I will argue again that nationalism is not racism. there are americans of all colors and creeds, but they're americans, nationals of this country. not caring about Uganda or Slovakia is not being racist. I only care about my backyard, not yours

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil in Absentia View Post
    A Hitch quote for everything:

    “Internationalism is the highest form of patriotism.”
    LOL.. That's a bad one.

    I prefer his brother: "We're all fucked, our countries are toast and there's nothing we can do about it."

    Paraphrased, but pretty close.

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    For shame. Liking Peter over Christopher is like preferring minute steak to a filet.
    "Everyone says you should be a good loser. If you’re a good loser, you’re a loser."
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    I dare say I disagree. Peter is every bit as clever, infinitely more pricipalled. Admittedly he has the personality of damp rag, but nobidies perfect. Actually, I take that back, the rag probably has more affability.

    Chesterton beats both of them soundly for my money.

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    Phil, in all seriousness you would really connect with my favorite living man of the world. Read Sam Harris, listen to some of his debates or talks. This is a masterful mind, a PHD in neuroscience and philosophy, and the true leader of a moral modern secularism. Hitchens is where one starts, but Sam Harris (The Reason Project) is the next level.

    Note: Sam is the best representative, speaker and debater for Atheism (he doesn't love the term) alive. He is also sharp, witty, funny, down-to-earth and extremely worldly and educated. However, though an intellectual, he is also a do-er. He experiments, researches and does not sit in an ivory tower pontificating. No air about him. He has experimented with spiritualism living in a cave for a month, studied religions and theology to a PHD level, will debate any religious leader and yet he can also participate in a brain transplant and neurological research.
    Last edited by Giacomin; 11-15-2018 at 07:23 PM.

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    Shit Phil, Sam Harris, ever heard of him?

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