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Thread: Rangers Re-Sign F Kevin Hayes to 1-Year/$5.125M Extension

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil in Absentia View Post
    Every player who isn't a point per game is "inconsistent". It's such a meaningless buzzword. If they were consistent, they'd be high-scoring superstars.


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    I wouldn't go that far. Not every "good" player is a ppg. player. There aren't many that can do that these days.

    I think of it like:
    80-70 point players are your 1st liners and top tier players.

    70-60 point players are your 1st/ 2nd line tier 1a / tier 2 players

    60-50 point players are your 2nd liners. Tier 2 a,b) tier 3

    The 45 point guys. 3rd liners, tier 3 .

    Kevin Hayes is how many tiers away from Kopitar? These players are world's apart talent wise. It's not a consistency issue. It's a talent issue that separates Hayes from these other tiers. He's a very good and maybe a very valuable 3rd line center, due to his defensive ability. I just don't buy into the talk about his numbers likely going up with more ice time and some PP time.

    I'm hoping and pretty much banking on Andersson or Howden taking the 3rd line center spot by Xmas.

    With me not wanting Hayes as the 2 C for very long at all (banking on Chytil taking that spot relatively early in the season), I don't see the need to pay him, when I feel some kid can take the role he fits on this team. Maybe not the production, but the job itself.

    I go with the growing pains of the three kid centers and dish off Hayes for what is hopefully something decent and ready to plug in on D.

  2. #62
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    Hayes/Kopitar to Moore/Crosby is just way off base lol.

    Hayes was a first round pick and highly sought UFA. He has a very similar set of skills (even if not equal) to a Kopitar.

    Point being is his inconsistency is why he makes $5 and not $10. 25 goals while being inconsistent ... What's that...35 if he is?

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    Hayes/Kopitar to Moore/Crosby is just way off base lol.

    Hayes was a first round pick and highly sought UFA. He has a very similar set of skills (even if not equal) to a Kopitar.

    Point being is his inconsistency is why he makes $5 and not $10. 25 goals while being inconsistent ... What's that...35 if he is?
    You're generally quick to point out when people are arguing things that are unquantifiable. I feel like you're wading into murky waters with this, lol.
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  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThirtyONE View Post
    You're generally quick to point out when people are arguing things that are unquantifiable. I feel like you're wading into murky waters with this, lol.
    I'm not trying to quantify anything. Just pointing out that were Hayes "more consistent", we'd not be getting him at 5 million haha.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    Hayes/Kopitar to Moore/Crosby is just way off base lol.

    Hayes was a first round pick and highly sought UFA. He has a very similar set of skills (even if not equal) to a Kopitar.

    Point being is his inconsistency is why he makes $5 and not $10. 25 goals while being inconsistent ... What's that...35 if he is?
    Where Hayes was drafted going into his 5th year as a pro is as relevant as your college GPA 5 years into your career. Don't care about perceived hype or success pre-NHL at this juncture.

    There is nothing linking Hayes to Kopitar. I don't know see the connection there.

    This concept of some kind of general standard of consistency that can be applied to all players throws me for a loop too. Something like consistency to me varies from player to player based on a combination of multiple things like their production over time, how they are used, skill level, etc. Hayes is extremely tough to project for at this point because he has been used in such drastically different ways between his first two years and his last two. Though I have to admit I haven't exactly seen a dazzling display of offensive prowess out of him (be it puck handling, vision, playmaking, etc.). I am more inclined to believe that 25 goals is "inconsistent" (high) based on his previous production. Not sure we will even find out if his production would increase in a more offensive minded role, because I don't expect him to be used differently this year than he has the past two if the expectation is he's gone at the deadline.

  6. #66
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    Clearly the Kopitar comparison was for context. Swap any upper-echelon center with a solid defensive game if it makes you feel better about it.

    Once again, the point is...If you think he is inconsistent, then 90% of NHLers are inconsistent, and were he "consistent"--He'd produce more and would be getting paid much more.

    I'm not sure why we're having trouble with this, it seems fairly straightforward to me.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    Clearly the Kopitar comparison was for context. Swap any upper-echelon center with a solid defensive game if it makes you feel better about it.

    Once again, the point is...If you think he is inconsistent, then 90% of NHLers are inconsistent, and were he "consistent"--He'd produce more and would be getting paid much more.

    I'm not sure why we're having trouble with this, it seems fairly straightforward to me.
    Maybe if you defined what makes a player "consistent" ?

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    Again, players with Hayes' skillset who don't go through dry spells are called Anze Kopitar and are Selke/Hart candidates and make $10 million.

    The reason Hayes is Hayes, Zib is Zib, etc is because they are humans who go through slumps and if they didn't would be P/G players making double what they make.
    Has nothing to do with them being humans. This is there job. You canít be a 2nd lone center and put up 19 assists in the NHL. That means if he isnít scoring, he isnít doing much. Thatís being inconsistent. Every player goes through slumps, I get that, but if your invisible on the ice during those slumps, thatís inconsistent. You keep mentioning his skill set, but who is to say that he will continue to be a 25 goal scorer. We saw the same thing from Boyle, and he never did it again. Like I said earlier, this is a huge season for him, he has a lot to prove this season.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by NYR2711 View Post
    Has nothing to do with them being humans. This is there job. You can’t be a 2nd lone center and put up 19 assists in the NHL. That means if he isn’t scoring, he isn’t doing much. That’s being inconsistent. Every player goes through slumps, I get that, but if your invisible on the ice during those slumps, that’s inconsistent. You keep mentioning his skill set, but who is to say that he will continue to be a 25 goal scorer. We saw the same thing from Boyle, and he never did it again. Like I said earlier, this is a huge season for him, he has a lot to prove this season.
    I don't think inconsistent is the right word here? Inconsistent implies he is better than what he has shown to be over 4 years of experience. For instance, 4-5 games without a goal isn't a slump for Kevin Hayes. That's par for the course for him based on previous production.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by NYR2711 View Post
    Has nothing to do with them being humans. This is there job. You canít be a 2nd lone center and put up 19 assists in the NHL. That means if he isnít scoring, he isnít doing much. Thatís being inconsistent. Every player goes through slumps, I get that, but if your invisible on the ice during those slumps, thatís inconsistent. You keep mentioning his skill set, but who is to say that he will continue to be a 25 goal scorer. We saw the same thing from Boyle, and he never did it again. Like I said earlier, this is a huge season for him, he has a lot to prove this season.
    I don't think handling all the defensive assignments and winning your draws and being the top PKer is "invisible".

    Guess we just have different expectations.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThirtyONE View Post
    I'm not suggesting he's a 4th line center or worth 2 million, I'm saying the Rangers are hoping to get more than 44 points from a 2nd line center which is why he's expendable. If the Rangers drafted properly, and we'll find out this year, one of Chytil or Andersson should be playing 2nd line minutes. And if they drafted well, one of Andersson or Chytil should eventually be getting 3rd line minutes.
    I think Hayes, Spooner, Namestnikov, Howden, and frankly - if you'd like to push the envelope a bit, Zib - are all "expendable" (in a sense) right now. What makes Hayes expendable is the notable amount of depth we suddenly have at center. Any one of those, plus Andersson and Chytil, could be our 1/2 center at the end of the season. I'd be willing to bet that at least two of the non-teenagers are gone by the TDL too - and for a nice little haul.

    I mean the team was fucking horrible last year. Only one player made it over 50 points, which is a joke -- and part of the collective problem. You keep saying 25 goals and 44 points like that's a good thing. It's not. 44 points is good for 156th in the league. If that's not average, I don't know what is. Considering Hayes got 12 of those points in the final 15 games (7 of which were goals) means he was almost completely useless in terms of scoring for a large majority of the season.

    He has 4 full seasons under his belt and last year was his second worst in terms of point totals. I don't see a magical transformation coming this season. And that's fine. But to suggest everyone needs to be on board with paying a 44 point player who can kill penalties 5 and 6 million because of inflation is absurd. Just because it's a trend doesn't mean it needs to be followed.
    Fair point - but it's somewhat cherrypicked. Hayes was the 70th best scoring center - not good enough for 2nd line - but a lot of those guys were potting 15-20 points on the PP to Hayes' 8. Hayes' PP TOI was in the "third tier PP" range - alongside players like Frans Neilsen, Chris Tierney, and Jeff Carter (who put up the same PP TOI in just 27 games). Folks in his general points range were getting near double the PP time. Further, he was 12th in the NHL in total shorthanded time. If he's a scorer, and isn't like...Anze Kopitar (and he is far from Anze Kopitar), that's a usage problem. If not, he's a good defensive forward.

    Further, I give him $5m in a year where we have that cap space rather than drag it to arb, give him 1y/5.5, and then can't frigging trade him because arbitration.

    Rangers need to be focused on adding skilled players at every position. They don't have any dynamic talent on the team at all. Continually paying and plugging with mediocrity should not be the course of action even if trends say so. That's why I have a slight issue with the Skjei deal. What has he proven to earn 5 mill? I don't know. That's why I don't see a spot for Hayes beyond this season. Hopefully there are better options for cheaper.
    It's a straight up "put up or shut up" deal for Hayes. If he wants to be our third line center, he can keep doing what he's doing and take a pay cut on a long term deal. If he ups his game, he's probably killer trade bait. It's a win/win, imo.
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  12. #72
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    Agreed is it really that impressive that the guy put up 12 points in 15 absolute garbage time games with zero pressure and expectations? I think he shot himself in the foot with his performance last year when it came to what contract he was offered.

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