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Thread: What to do with The King?

  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gravesy View Post
    Sorry. Bad phrasing on my part.
    I just meant to say that you were the only one being negative about him.
    No problem. It really wasn't nessasary to apologize but I do appreciate it.

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  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    Play him 40 games and let him get some rest.

    The real work starts 2019-20 season.
    Let's just emphasize this, and move on.

    He had a down year, inconsistent play, with a ton of things factoring into the poor performance. He's on the backend of his career, and you can assume he wont put up the numbers he did 10 years ago. That said, he still had some great games, and can still steal a game for a team here and there. He can certainly keep the team competitive.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Puck Head View Post
    Question wasn't directed at yourself, perhaps read between the lines.

    There were 32 goaltenders who started at lest 1/2 their teams games last season, (40).
    Of those 32....
    Lundy
    GAA- 24th
    Save%- 16th

    When you take games played to 50, (true starters)...there were 22
    Lundy
    GAA- 17th
    Save %- 14th


    That's a stretch to call that middle of the pack
    GAA is irrelevant here considering the shot volume he faced. Of course his GAA is higher, than, say, Tukka Rask, when he faced 500 more shots on the season.

    And 16th out of 32 is firmly middle of the pack. I mean, we can keep skewing sample size one way or another to show whatever we want. He's 36th out of 95 if you just include all goalies and he's #3 in sv% among goalies who played 15 games from 10/8 to 1/20.

    You have to use an extremely limited sample (50 games leaves out Carey Price, Corey Schneider, Matt Murray, and whichever of Darling/Ward you want to call the #1 in Carolina, not to mention MAF and Raanta) to take Henrik out of the direct middle of the pack, and even then, he's in the middle third.

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    GAA references shots per game, not sure what season totals have to do with it.

    And one point, If we are to point to the inexcusable defense in front of him last season, (as we should).

    Does it negate the years where he played behind some the most defensive minded teams in the NHL (Torts era)?


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  5. #85
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    For what it's worth, I just read the article about how Buffalo is shaping up their team. They said they had 32.7 SAA and were 10th in the league.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Puck Head View Post
    GAA references shots per game, not sure what season totals have to do with it.

    And one point, If we are to point to the inexcusable defense in front of him last season, (as we should).

    Does it negate the years where he played behind some the most defensive minded teams in the NHL (Torts era)?


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    GAA has nothing to do with shots. Its goal against per 60 minutes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Puck Head View Post
    GAA references shots per game, not sure what season totals have to do with it.

    And one point, If we are to point to the inexcusable defense in front of him last season, (as we should).

    Does it negate the years where he played behind some the most defensive minded teams in the NHL (Torts era)?


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    GAA is...goals against? lol. My point is that GAA is inflated by high shot totals, its not always indicative of goalie play. If a goalie faces 50 shots and has a .90 sv%, he's got a 5 GAA, but a .90 sv% at 20 shots is just 2 GAA. Over the course of a season, that heavily favors the goalie facing fewer shots, even though their play is the same. That's why Hank had a higher sv% but lower GAA than a whole bunch of goalies (Khudobin, Howard, Murray, Schneider, Allen).

    I don't know what you mean "negate the years." He was the best goalie in the world when he had a strong defense in front of him and is still good with a bottom-3 defense in front of him. I don't buy for one second that his numbers were inflated by the Torts system, he made the Torts system work. It's not like he was making 15-save shutouts, he still faced 28.5 shots per game under Torts while having to react to react to all the blocked shots and constant defending. Plus, how many pucks went in off of fucking Jason Strudwick?

    So I don't particularly understand your question, but Hell no is my answer anyways lol.

  8. #88
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    not worried about hankie. he'll come into camp in tip top shape, the guys a true pro.

    more worried about what's in front of him and our backup being able to shelter him some with strong play.
    Acqua in bocca

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    I don't know how you guys come up with all the hockey metrics so fast!! LOL It's like you guys swallowed the freakin' hockey almanac!!! I love it though....

    Thing is this though, fellas....and maybe I'm off base here; and I'm thinking in a "fast forward" kind of manner:

    {dream sequence}

    It's 2 Years down the road and let's just say for example a few of these guys have been dealt off already...Zucc, Zibby, Vesey, Hayes...etc.
    We've re-stocked the shelves and put together some good talent both on the ice and in the farm system...(I know...very positive thinking here)
    Now it's time to figure out what to do in net.

    What we do over the next 2 seasons will impact how and where we go when we get to that point. Now flashback to present day....{end Dream sequence}

    Hank is most likely not going to be an option at this age, and I know there's a lot more that's going to develop along the way I'm sure.

    Is the goaltending position as important as it was when Hank signed that contract?
    Did the Rangers over value the goaltending position with Hank's deal?
    Can a regular playoff caliber goalie be good enough to contend for a Stanley Cup?
    Does this team need a World Class, top ranked goalie to win it all?
    Can our salary dollar be more wisely spent on a another position?

    Just a few opinion questions. I like the stats, but I love the ideas that come out playing armchair GM. I definitely feel the stats have their place, but do they tell the whole story?

  10. #90
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    I would say...

    Is the goaltending position as important as it was when Hank signed that contract? - No, not if Quinn can establish a defensive strucutre
    Did the Rangers over value the goaltending position with Hank's deal? - Yes
    Can a regular playoff caliber goalie be good enough to contend for a Stanley Cup? - Yes, but define "playoff calibre"
    Does this team need a World Class, top ranked goalie to win it all? - No
    Can our salary dollar be more wisely spent on a another position? - Yes

    Having said all that, I don't think that Hank's cap number is problematic at this point. My only concern with Hank is that he needs to learn how to be successful playing 50, rather than 65 games. B/c he can still be very good at 38 (Luongo) but he's not going to be able to carry the load.

  11. #91
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    (general comments, not directed at anyone in particular)

    Anyone who thinks that Lundqvist's play hasn't diminished from it's peak is having their fandom confuse their analysis. He is not longer a top 5 goalie but is certainly still capable. Lundqvist is better suited for a contender than screaming at teammates for their defensive lases. Either the Rangers get better, Lundqvist changes his attitude, or the situation wears him out and he agrees to waive his NMC for certain teams. Increasingly he is a square peg trying to fit in a round hole. I admire his loyalty to the Rangers, his commitment to the franchise and his craft, and his years of quality play, but this rebuilding team is going to be an awkward fit for him - especially with how many games we are going to lose this year.
    "We're all f*cked. It helps to remember that." - George Carlin

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    "Hatred can keep you warm when you run out of liquor" - Ray Ratto, Dan Patrick show 1/20/2017

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    I don't get people complaining about Lundqvist yelling at defensemen. This is his job, and just like any of us, if someone you work with screws up and doesn't do their job, we say something to them. I have no problem with him yelling at another player. It shows he still cares about the team and winning.While his play has dropped, IMO, with a slightly better defense in front of him, he is capable of winning a championship here.

  13. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by NYR2711 View Post
    I don't get people complaining about Lundqvist yelling at defensemen. This is his job, and just like any of us, if someone you work with screws up and doesn't do their job, we say something to them. I have no problem with him yelling at another player. It shows he still cares about the team and winning.While his play has dropped, IMO, with a slightly better defense in front of him, he is capable of winning a championship here.
    I think its a generational thing. I have no issue with it, but, "stick and stones may break my bones, but words to 100x worse" is the new saying.
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    Quote Originally Posted by NYR2711 View Post
    I don't get people complaining about Lundqvist yelling at defensemen. This is his job, and just like any of us, if someone you work with screws up and doesn't do their job, we say something to them. I have no problem with him yelling at another player. It shows he still cares about the team and winning.While his play has dropped, IMO, with a slightly better defense in front of him, he is capable of winning a championship here.
    because it's focusing on other people's mistakes instead of what he could have done to stop the goal. and it is showing up teammates. neither is a good look.
    "We're all f*cked. It helps to remember that." - George Carlin

    "How many Cups you've got?" - Esa Tikkanen

    "Hatred can keep you warm when you run out of liquor" - Ray Ratto, Dan Patrick show 1/20/2017

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    Quote Originally Posted by fletch View Post
    (general comments, not directed at anyone in particular)

    Anyone who thinks that Lundqvist's play hasn't diminished from it's peak is having their fandom confuse their analysis. He is not longer a top 5 goalie but is certainly still capable. Lundqvist is better suited for a contender than screaming at teammates for their defensive lases. Either the Rangers get better, Lundqvist changes his attitude, or the situation wears him out and he agrees to waive his NMC for certain teams. Increasingly he is a square peg trying to fit in a round hole. I admire his loyalty to the Rangers, his commitment to the franchise and his craft, and his years of quality play, but this rebuilding team is going to be an awkward fit for him - especially with how many games we are going to lose this year.
    Very well said and well-reasoned. The beauty is that waiving one's NMC is a dynamic question. If we or he finds he can't handle the losing productively, a new conversation can happen.

    It could happen during the season or in the off season. Maybe a Cup contender or just a team on the upswing finds their biggest weakness is in goal. Or their goalie has a season ending injury. Basically, if it is not working out well here, everyone gets to reassess.

    The worst outcome is Hank drops off a cliff and we can't give him away. Doubt that. More likely is that Hank is able to adjust his expectations enough to manage to productively deal with reality.

  16. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by fletch View Post
    because it's focusing on other people's mistakes instead of what he could have done to stop the goal. and it is showing up teammates. neither is a good look.
    Right, plus it is not really his job. That is the coaches job. Besides, Hank is emotional and is not the most objective person to immediately critique a goal or bad play. And if he does it too much, he loses his impact or worse.

    There is a time and place for everything. If he can help by pointing out where a Dman should be or how he should react to a situation, that is fine. If someone needs a kick in the ass because of effort or consistently making the same mistake, the team can live with it. Beyond that he'll have to be positive about doing his job and leave most of the criticism for the coaches. Quinn is an activist D coach anyway.
    Last edited by Giacomin; 07-11-2018 at 11:21 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fletch View Post
    because it's focusing on other people's mistakes instead of what he could have done to stop the goal. and it is showing up teammates. neither is a good look.
    Quote Originally Posted by Giacomin View Post
    Right, plus it is not really his job. That is the coaches job. Besides, Hank is emotional and is not the most objective person to immediately critique a goal or bad play. And if he does it too much, he loses his impact or worse.

    There is a time and place for everything. If he can help by pointing out where a Dman should be or how he should react to a situation, that is fine. If someone needs a kick in the ass because of effort or consistently making the same mistake, the team can live with it. Beyond that he'll have to be positive about doing his job and leave most of the criticism for the coaches. Quinn is an activist D coach anyway.
    It is his job to do it when guys screen him or deflect a shot in past him. They all communicate on the ice, so if he is telling a guy he is doing something wrong, and he continues to do it, why shouldn't he be yelled at. A coach doesn't know if a guy keeps screening the goalie, the goalie has to do it himself. And again, at your job, if someone screws you, are you gonna run to a boss or tell him yourself? He has to say something to a player when it happens so the player knows not to do it again in the game. Goalies see more of whats going on in a game than a forward or defensemen, so they communicate with their players more.

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    in the moment, I doubt that Lundqvist can gauge how well teammates are doing their job - more likely he is emotionally venting. A blocked shot helps a goaltender while a deflected shot makes his job more difficult - the action by the defender is the same, just with a different result. So does a blocked shot mean that a player did his job while a deflected shot means he didn't? If an opponent is in the crease, a defender has to guard him or try and move him out, both of which will reduce the goalie's visibility. so most of the reasons why a goalie would bitch are at players that are just trying to do their job. An awful lot for Lundqvist to assess when he is supposed to be stopping the puck and anticipating puck movement between opponents.

    Better to leave the coaching and corrections to the bench. Goalies may see more of the game than forwards or defensemen, but they are still not seeing as much as coaches, and are biased in their perspective.
    "We're all f*cked. It helps to remember that." - George Carlin

    "How many Cups you've got?" - Esa Tikkanen

    "Hatred can keep you warm when you run out of liquor" - Ray Ratto, Dan Patrick show 1/20/2017

  19. #99
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    All good points. When Hank talks or screams at playrs after a goal he should not be making it so publicly obvious. We don't know what most goalies say to their teammates because we can't see their mouths. To point, flail, step up to, with your head shaking and shame someone who is a professional athlete is inexcusable. I was glad when JT Miller actually yelled back at him a couple of weeks before the trade. If he has something to say to a teammate it should happen in the lockeroom or with less dramatics on the ice.

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  20. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by NYR2711 View Post
    It is his job to do it when guys screen him or deflect a shot in past him. They all communicate on the ice, so if he is telling a guy he is doing something wrong, and he continues to do it, why shouldn't he be yelled at. A coach doesn't know if a guy keeps screening the goalie, the goalie has to do it himself. And again, at your job, if someone screws you, are you gonna run to a boss or tell him yourself? He has to say something to a player when it happens so the player knows not to do it again in the game. Goalies see more of whats going on in a game than a forward or defensemen, so they communicate with their players more.
    Yea but you're not yelling at your co-worker in from of other co-worker or 18,000 people.

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