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Thread: Rangers Attempting to Acquire Matt Martin's Contract from TOR

  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by So Nashty View Post
    Weíll see how the season plays out I guess but if I had to guess Iíd say Hayes is gone after/during this season.


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    Doubt during.

    More likely after...but again depends on Lias and Chytil. Lias gave us nothing to be excited about in his stint. Chytil showed some promise.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    Doubt during.

    More likely after...but again depends on Lias and Chytil. Lias gave us nothing to be excited about in his stint. Chytil showed some promise.
    We agree there. I didnít want to see either of them last season anyway, let them develop. But theyíre here now and have some experience so Iím hoping for decent things from both.


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  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vodka Drunkenski View Post
    Is 5v5 primary points an advanced stat?
    It's even strength scoring, dude. 5v5 = five on five.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil in Absentia View Post
    It's even strength scoring, dude. 5v5 = five on five.


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    I understand that but looking at the names on that list, Iím sure Hayes is getting better matchups than those guys to inflate his numbers. Iím not saying I hate Hayes, just making an observation about advanced stats.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vodka Drunkenski View Post
    I understand that but looking at the names on that list, I’m sure Hayes is getting better matchups than those guys to inflate his numbers. I’m not saying I hate Hayes, just making an observation about advanced stats.
    Hayes gets some of the worst matchups in the league.

    But that list just shows how players score, not how much. It's not a very telling list at all.

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    Rangers Attempting to Acquire Matt Martin's Contract from TOR

    Quote Originally Posted by Zuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuc View Post
    Im pretty sure we would never trade a 70 points Hayes.
    My thoughts exactly

    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    I doubt Hayes reaches 70 points. Even at 55-60 he has value. Andersson (especially) and Chytil would have to take massive strides this season for us to walk away from Hayes.
    And this, too.
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    seems to me Hayes is not getting the interest level the Rangers hoped for or I believe a deal would have been done by now.

    i'd keep him at this point and hope quinn can coach him up.

    Looks like there's no way Trouba gets dealt given managements stance.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Dude View Post
    So at 26 Hayes has upside, but it seems like you think Spooner is what he is at the same age. Why aren't we nutting in our pants over what Spooner did offensively at the end of the season, yet all of a sudden Hayes is a 25 goal scorer?
    Aside from writing Hayes has upside, based on him improving a bunch in his 4th year and now a new coach, I said none of that!! I did not even mention Spooner here. Or say Hayes is or isn't a 25 goal scorer. You are arguing with others through me.

    For clarity, I'm comfortable saying Spoons has less value than Hayes. If you are referring to a comment made months ago that Spooner is a known entity, it was meant that unlike a prospect we knew what Spooner could do against NHL competition. He can be a productive third line playmaking winger, when healthy.

    Can we keep our discussion simpler? This started when I basically said no thanks to a swap, that Hayes is much more valuable than Shaw. Also, I'd rather hold Hayes until we can extract similar value that ROR returned. Or package him for a high quality piece.

    I'm fine if he stays and expect he does unless we get an enticing offer. As with most who've played here a few years, we should reassess his fit/performance/improvement/value both during and after the season.

    Shaw at 27 is done, yet Hayes at 26 is a keeper and will improve???
    As I specifically explained, Hayes is still improving and has 4 years as a pro. Shaw has much more mileage, plays a much harder game and has started to show decline in production and his impact. I'm sure he has plenty left, but will he in 3 years?

    Again. I feel Shaw or a player like Shaw will help in ways that aren't measured in stats. I could be wrong. Maybe he himself is a piece of shit. All I know is that the guy has made a career of playing gritty and being a contributor in a middle six role. Hell, he can even play center in a pinch. He's versatile. He's signed. He fills a need or two. He's probably available.
    No disagreement here, except I never heard he was a piece of shit.

    Again. If you only want to sign Hayes to just flip him, you honestly don't believe in the player.
    No, not just to flip him. With the right linemates, a strong mental approach, commitment and discipline (on and off the ice), Hayes could be one of the best 3C's on a Championship team. That is why we sign him. [Yes, I'd still value him as a 2C in a trade]. But the Rangers may ultimately be deep at C and weak in other areas like a top line RW or a top scorer or a RHD. C's get good returns, I'm not selling low. If we can add a high quality piece in an area of need, for Hayes, it makes sense. But we'll only get one chance at that, I'm not blowing one of our best assets on Shaw.

    Now if you were suggesting Spooner for Shaw... I can abide.
    Last edited by Giacomin; 07-05-2018 at 05:28 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuc View Post
    Im pretty sure we would never trade a 70 points Hayes.
    I wouldn't.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Giacomin View Post
    Aside from writing Hayes has upside, based on him improving a bunch in his 4th year and now a new coach, I said none of that!! I did not even mention Spooner here. Or say Hayes is or isn't a 25 goal scorer. You are arguing with others through me.

    For clarity, I'm comfortable saying Spoons has less value than Hayes. If you are referring to a comment made months ago that Spooner is a known entity, it was meant that unlike a prospect we knew what Spooner could do against NHL competition. He can be a productive third line playmaking winger, when healthy.

    Can we keep our discussion simpler? This started when I basically said no thanks to a swap, that Hayes is much more valuable than Shaw. Also, I'd rather hold Hayes until we can extract similar value that ROR returned. Or package him for a high quality piece.

    I'm fine if he stays and expect he does unless we get an enticing offer. As with most who've played here a few years, we should reassess his fit/performance/improvement/value both during and after the season.



    As I specifically explained, Hayes is still improving and has 4 years as a pro. Shaw has much more mileage, plays a much harder game and has started to show decline in production and his impact. I'm sure he has plenty left, but will he in 3 years?



    No disagreement here, except I never heard he was a piece of shit.



    No, not just to flip him. With the right linemates, a strong mental approach, commitment and discipline (on and off the ice), Hayes could be one of the best 3C's on a Championship team. That is why we sign him. [Yes, I'd still value him as a 2C in a trade]. But the Rangers may ultimately be deep at C and weak in other areas like a top line RW or a top scorer or a RHD. C's get good returns, I'm not selling low. If we can add a high quality piece in an area of need, for Hayes, it makes sense. But we'll only get one chance at that, I'm not blowing one of our best assets on Shaw.

    Now if you were suggesting Spooner for Shaw... I can abide.
    I have no idea what you're talking about. In one instance you call Hate a 3C, yet want to trade him at the cost of a 2C.... Huh?

    Hayes didn't drastically improve his 4th year though....

    You write off Spooner, and continually say he prefers the wing when he doesn't. You act as if he is not needed. And look past the fact that HE had the good run at the end of the season. They are the same age, yet you act like Spooner is done and Hayes is on the rise. Yet they both finished the season in similar situations. Scored a bit in a shitty team... Hayes does have more value, but it's only because of his two way play. I feel Spooner is much better offensively.

    I feel like many including yourself are putting way too much stock into Hayes stats from this past season. Calling him a 50 point player is a stretch. A big one. You go on to say you want a return similar to what O'Reilly got. Kevin Hayes is not on the same planet as O'Reilly. You're setting yourself up for disappointment if you are expecting anything like that in return. I seriously feel a guy like Shaw (maybe with a sweetener) is closer to reality than what you are expecting... Other teams can sell better centers to teams that are looking for such players. Hayes ISN'T the hot commodity you seem to think he is.

    IMO I'm fine with keeping him if the price is right... I think the contract Boone Jenner just signed should be exactly in line with what Hayes is worth. Jenner had better numbers early on and just got less money than what people are suggesting Hayes is worth.

    4 years 15 mill. That's 3.75 annually. That's for a guy with better offensive numbers.

    4 for 4 and no no movement clause is all I'm willing to give, and much like you, I move him the second someone offers any value.
    Last edited by The Dude; 07-05-2018 at 05:57 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Dude View Post
    I have no idea what you're talking about. In one instance you call Hate a 3C, yet want to trade him at the cost of a 2C.... Huh?

    Hayes didn't drastically improve his 4th year though....

    You write off Spooner, and continually say he prefers the wing when he doesn't. You act as if he is not needed. And look past the fact that HE had the good run at the end of the season. They are the same age, yet you act like Spooner is done and Hayes is on the rise. Yet they both finished the season in similar situations. Scored a bit in a shitty team... Hayes does have more value, but it's only because of his two way play. I feel Spooner is much better offensively.

    I feel like many including yourself are putting way too much stock into Hayes stats from this past season. Calling him a 50 point player is a stretch. A big one. You go on to say you want a return similar to what O'Reilly got. Kevin Hayes is not on the same planet as O'Reilly. You're setting yourself up for disappointment if you are expecting anything like that in return. I seriously feel a guy like Shaw (maybe with a sweetener) is closer to reality than what you are expecting... Other teams can sell better centers to teams that are looking for such players. Hayes ISN'T the hot commodity you seem to think he is.

    IMO I'm fine with keeping him if the price is right... I think the contract Boone Jenner just signed should be exactly in line with what Hayes is worth. Jenner had better numbers early on and just got less money than what people are suggesting Hayes is worth.

    4 years 15 mill. That's 3.75 annually. That's for a guy with better offensive numbers.


    4 for 4 and no no movement clause is all I'm willing to give, and much like you, I move him the second someone offers any value.
    Where do you get your stats from?

    Jenner has one season over 35 points. Hayes has never been below 35 points.

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    Spooner provides some moxie. Iíd give him every chance to make the team


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    Quote Originally Posted by Long live the King View Post
    Where do you get your stats from?

    Jenner has one season over 35 points. Hayes has never been below 35 points.
    ?
    15/16
    30 goals 19 assists?

    I'd say a 30 goal season tops what Hayes has done.

    Jenner has always been good on faceoffs. He certainly shoots a fuck ton more. Shooting % is better. Out hits him by a landslide.. Take aways are better.. Less giveaways. He's younger... I mean points wise, yeah, I guess Hayes has the upper hand. But all the other stuff? And on a Torts team?

    I think the two are extremely comparable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Dude View Post
    ?
    15/16
    30 goals 19 assists?

    I'd say a 30 goal season tops what Hayes has done.

    Jenner has always been good on faceoffs. He certainly shoots a fuck ton more. Shooting % is better. Out hits him by a landslide.. Take aways are better.. Less giveaways. He's younger... I mean points wise, yeah, I guess Hayes has the upper hand. But all the other stuff? And on a Torts team?

    I think the two are extremely comparable.
    So Jenner has 1 30 goal season 3 years ago and hasn't topped 20 since.

    Jenner is not a face off guy. There were 4 players on the Jackets the took more faceoffs than he did. He's taken 1297 career faceoffs. Hayes took 1112 last year.

    Jenner career shooting % is 10.3. Hayes is 13.1.

    Jenner 160 career takeaways. Hayes 173. (in 32 less games).

    A) I still don't know where you're getting your incorrect numbers from. B) You're again comparing Hayes to a role player and complaining that Hayes is worse because he doesn't hit enough for you.

  15. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Dude View Post
    ?
    15/16
    30 goals 19 assists?

    I'd say a 30 goal season tops what Hayes has done.

    Jenner has always been good on faceoffs. He certainly shoots a fuck ton more. Shooting % is better. Out hits him by a landslide.. Take aways are better.. Less giveaways. He's younger... I mean points wise, yeah, I guess Hayes has the upper hand. But all the other stuff? And on a Torts team?

    I think the two are extremely comparable.
    Dude Jenner sucks lol. He had an anomaly year. He scored 13 goals last year

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    LOL ok.

    I can't help you if the facts slap you in the face and you ignore them.

    I'll treat this as surrender. Go have a hot dog and a beer.
    What happened to your opinon that "Hayes can never carry a top 6 load" ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by CBrowningPI View Post
    What happened to your opinon that "Hayes can never carry a top 6 load" ?

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    Please point me to that post.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuc View Post
    Im pretty sure we would never trade a 70 points Hayes.
    They traded away Stepan, and he still put up more points than anyone on the Rangers while in Arizona this past season.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NYR2711 View Post
    They traded away Stepan, and he still put up more points than anyone on the Rangers while in Arizona this past season.
    What does Stepan have to do with 70 point players?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Long live the King View Post
    What does Stepan have to do with 70 point players?
    The fact that the team will trade one of their leading scorers. If they traded Stepan, they would have no problem trading Hayes. And Hayes won’t be a 70 point player.

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