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Thread: Rangers Attempting to Acquire Matt Martin's Contract from TOR

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by josh View Post
    He outscored Zibanejad at even strength
    But you couldn't outscore a one legged ginger in a whorehouse with a fist full of 50s.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    But you couldn't outscore a one legged ginger in a whorehouse with a fist full of 50s.
    This isn’t the grandpa jokes thread
    Lias Andersson for #AJT2019

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    This is the same pathetic argument you always follow. Rather than state facts, you use bullshit statements like "this is what a loser says".

    Your schtick is old and tired.

    For the record you are the one claiming he's not what he is and he shouldn't get paid. So prove it the same way you tried to prove Hertl didn't and got slapped with facts.

    Notice you bailed hard out of that thread.
    Yawn. Still waiting on a factual argument from you other than you spouting your opinion on what you think Hayes is, and treating it like it's a majority view across the NHL. If he was a legit 2C and his asking price is 5.5 mill, he would have been signed already. But guess what? He's not a 2C.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rmc51 View Post
    Yawn. Still waiting on a factual argument from you other than you spouting your opinion on what you think Hayes is, and treating it like it's a majority view across the NHL. If he was a legit 2C and his asking price is 5.5 mill, he would have been signed already. But guess what? He's not a 2C.
    LOL ok.

    I can't help you if the facts slap you in the face and you ignore them.

    I'll treat this as surrender. Go have a hot dog and a beer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    LOL ok.

    I can't help you if the facts slap you in the face and you ignore them.

    I'll treat this as surrender. Go have a hot dog and a beer.

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    Rangers Attempting to Acquire Matt Martin's Contract from TOR

    2014 to 2018 5v5 Leaders by Primary Points Percentage:




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    Quote Originally Posted by Giacomin View Post
    No offense meant Dude. I can understand and agree with much of what you are saying. Here is where we disagree.

    1. In a trade, I value Hayes as a 2C with upside. A guy just entering his prime with zero injury issues and exceled in the shutdown D role last year and also improved in taking the puck to the net at the end of the year. He also improved at faceoffs every year. If he listens to his coaches and works hard he can still get better.

    2. If he ever was, Shaw is no longer a 2nd line talent. Shaw is a more battered player who's turning 27 in days. He's starting to show the beginnings of a decline (wear and tear/concussions?) and is not what I want in return. We need to trade our very good assets for talent that is going to contribute to a Cup contender in 3 years. Shaw is not going to be that.

    3. I wanted to see if we could get an available Dman like Hamilton or Trouba for a Hayes package, not just Hayes. Or a top 12 draft pick. It didn't happen, not expecting Trouba to happen.

    4. I expect Hayes to start the season under Quinn and look forward to see how he plays. I'll bet his trade value increases. Sakic was patient with Duchene, Buff was patient about ROR. Columbus with RyJo, Yzerman with Druin. That is what is necessary to extract the value needed to build a contender. 2 way C's this age are not to be sold cheap.
    So at 26 Hayes has upside, but it seems like you think Spooner is what he is at the same age. Why aren't we nutting in our pants over what Spooner did offensively at the end of the season, yet all of a sudden Hayes is a 25 goal scorer?

    Shaw at 27 is done, yet Hayes at 26 is a keeper and will improve??? Again. I feel Shaw or a player like Shaw will help in ways that aren't measured in stats. I could be wrong. Maybe he himself is a piece of shit. All I know is that the guy has made a career of playing gritty and being a contributor in a middle six role. Hell, he can even play center in a pinch. He's versatile. He's signed. He fills a need or two. He's probably available.

    Again. If you only want to sign Hayes to just flip him, you honestly don't believe in the player. IMO that's for good reason. I don't either, and I'd rather deal him now before he hinders development of a kid OR decreases his value by shitting the bed as a 2nd line center. Something he hasn't really been used as, up until the team stunk. They continued to stink. He was an anomaly. Anyone who watched this guy over the last four years knows he will not advance or even reproduce the numbers of last season. IMO, to expect those numbers or even an advancement is wishful thinking. But since it seems like he is staying, I guess I should start hoping this happens.

    Quinn is a new coach. Yes. Let's not forget Hayes was given THE longest leash of any younger player to come through the organization in years. It's not like he was held back or had to fight through what some of us felt was unfair treatment of some kids by AV.

    But again. Everyone who sticks up for him and touts the numbers, is just hoping to unload him as quickly as possible.

    And if we are going off stats alone, I'm guessing Grabner is a 2nd liner as well.?
    Last edited by The Dude; 07-04-2018 at 10:29 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by josh View Post
    He outscored Zibanejad at even strength
    So did you. The team sucked.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil in Absentia View Post
    2014 to 2018 5v5 Leaders by Primary Points Percentage:




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    Skinner is # 2 on the list. Vanek is #3... Sedin 6. Zetterberg 17, Ovechkin 25!!!!

    This list shows that some mediocre talent can be up with the rest of the league if you skew the weird stat to show something.

    Hayes is better in 5 on 5 than Ovechkin.

    Please.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Dude View Post
    Skinner is # 2 on the list. Vanek is #3... Sedin 6. Zetterberg 17, Ovechkin 25!!!!

    This list shows that some mediocre talent can be up with the rest of the league if you skew the weird stat to show something.

    Hayes is better in 5 on 5 than Ovechkin.

    Please.
    People like that chart on here. It looks at the percentage of how many points those players had that were primary points. Hayes' primary point percentage is largely inflated from his rookie season, where 35 of his 36 points were primary (primary percentage = .972). He hasn't been anywhere close to that in the last 3 years. This chart does nothing more than cherry pick a stat that paints Hayes in a favorable light.

    It actually reminds me of how much hope I had for Hayes after that rookie season. The next 2 years he was really not very good. Last year he upped his game as a solid 2 way center. We don't know what we are going to get next year and beyond.
    Last edited by rmc51; 07-05-2018 at 12:40 AM.

  11. #71
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    Rangers Attempting to Acquire Matt Martin's Contract from TOR

    Quote Originally Posted by rmc51 View Post
    People like that chart on here. It looks at the percentage of how many points those players had that were primary points. Hayes' primary point percentage is largely inflated from his rookie season, where 35 of his 36 points were primary (primary percentage = .972). He hasn't been anywhere close to that in the last 3 years. This chart does nothing more than cherry pick a stat that paints Hayes in a favorable light.

    It actually reminds me of how much hope I had for Hayes after that rookie season. The next 2 years he was really not very good. Last year he upped his game as a solid 2 way center. We don't know what we are going to get next year and beyond.
    Thanks for the perspective rmc51


    This team has a bunch of tough decisions and tough years ahead of it. Hereís hoping they choose wisely when handing out contracts.

    I guess in principle the idea ought to be not to overpay as if we were some kind of near-term contender.

    5 years for Hayes makes me uncomfortableóbut a shorter term say 2 or 3. I donít see paying him like a better 2C. I donít know what the pay comparables are for a better 3C or a low-tier 2C.
    If n ya gots jowls, they might as well be furry ones.

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    WIth Chytil and Lias coming into their own I really find it hard to imagine Hayesí time with this team extending beyond this upcoming season unless one of those two kids has just a terrible year.

    I just hope Hayes puts up 60-70 points with the added ice time this year so we can sell high on him. Iíd say the same about Vesey who has done nothing for me since we got him... who knows though under Quinn he might be a different player.


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    Quote Originally Posted by So Nashty View Post
    WIth Chytil and Lias coming into their own I really find it hard to imagine Hayes’ time with this team extending beyond this upcoming season unless one of those two kids has just a terrible year.

    I just hope Hayes puts up 60-70 points with the added ice time this year so we can sell high on him. I’d say the same about Vesey who has done nothing for me since we got him... who knows though under Quinn he might be a different player.


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    Im pretty sure we would never trade a 70 points Hayes.

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    Rangers Attempting to Acquire Matt Martin's Contract from TOR

    I hate advanced stats, I still donít fucking understand Corsi
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuc View Post
    Im pretty sure we would never trade a 70 points Hayes.
    If you are certain he will repeat then Perhaps youíre right but I donít think he does.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Vodka Drunkenski View Post
    I hate advanced stats, I still donít fucking understand Corsi
    That's great. Who is even talking about it here?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil in Absentia View Post
    That's great. Who is even talking about it here?


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    Is 5v5 primary points an advanced stat?
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  18. #78
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    I doubt Hayes reaches 70 points. Even at 55-60 he has value. Andersson (especially) and Chytil would have to take massive strides this season for us to walk away from Hayes.

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    Rangers Attempting to Acquire Matt Martin's Contract from TOR

    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    I doubt Hayes reaches 70 points. Even at 55-60 he has value. Andersson (especially) and Chytil would have to take massive strides this season for us to walk away from Hayes.
    Weíll see how the season plays out I guess but if I had to guess Iíd say Hayes is gone after/during this season.

    Also I donít think Hayes hits 70 I just hope we sell high on him, if we do indeed sell.

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    Last edited by So Nashty; 07-05-2018 at 10:55 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Respecttheblue View Post
    Thanks for the perspective rmc51


    This team has a bunch of tough decisions and tough years ahead of it. Here’s hoping they choose wisely when handing out contracts.

    I guess in principle the idea ought to be not to overpay as if we were some kind of near-term contender.

    5 years for Hayes makes me uncomfortable—but a shorter term say 2 or 3. I don’t see paying him like a better 2C. I don’t know what the pay comparables are for a better 3C or a low-tier 2C.
    I'm with you on this on what I'd rather see happen (2-3 year contract). I believe Hayes only has one more year of RFA status and anything after that is buying into his UFA years (someone correct me if that is inaccurate), so it would seem a 2-3 year contract might not be something he would do. He's likely going to want long term.

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