[brooks] Hayes or Zibanejad: Which Should the Rangers Trade?

1. The critical decision confronting general manager Jeff Gorton is not choosing Kevin Hayes or Vlad Namestnikov to sign to a contract extension, it is whether to trade Hayes or Mika Zibanejad.

 

We reported Sunday that Hayes is seeking a five-year deal for upward of $5.5 million per year. At first blush, that seems a lot for a 26-year-old who has never hit the 50-point mark in his four NHL seasons.

 

But when compared to the five-year deal at $5.3 million per season for which a 24-year-old Zibanejad signed last summer, it is well within the ballpark ? especially since No. 93 was two years away from unrestricted free agency whereas Hayes is eligible to hit the market next summer.

There has been growth in both players. Hayes? response to his dismal 2015-16 sophomore season has been especially impressive. There is room for growth in both players, too. The prospect of fellow Bostonian David Quinn squeezing more of a straight-line, hard-edged game out of Hayes is especially intriguing. (The same holds true for winger Jimmy Vesey, also an impending Group II free agent).

 

The Rangers intend to create room so that Filip Chytil has a shot at winning a top-six role. Spots are earned rather than bequeathed, but if Zibanejad, Chytil and Hayes line up 1-2-3 down the middle, then Lias Andersson?s ceiling on a rebuilding team is as a fourth-liner. That doesn?t seem to make a whole of lot of sense. Neither, really, does paying a third-line center more than $5 million per year.

 

Zibanejad?s health and concussion history is a consideration, as well. It took a couple of months for No. 93 to regain his form after suffering a broken fibula his first year as a Ranger and it took perhaps that long for him to regain his mojo after suffering a concussion ? not his first, second or even third, as he volunteered ? last season.

https://nypost.com/2018/06/24/which-center-should-rangers-trade-behind-the-hard-choice-looming/

Unless you have a 1C, you need to keep both.

IF we have a 1C, I like Hayes at 2C.

I'd also prefer moving Zibanejad to the wing over moving him. Although Zibanejad would return the most/best assets (compared to Hayes/Names/Spooner) I'd still rather trade Spooner, then Namestnikov, even for smaller returns.

If this is going to be a true rebuild.. may as well trade both of them...

Trade Hayes 1st, let someone else sign him to an extension.. Then deal Zib at the deadline.

I assume the goal of last years draft was to have Anderson be a top 6 C and Chytil plating the pivot as well. Get all teh assets you can. If you are going to suck, suck correctly.

If this is going to be a true rebuild.. may as well trade both of them...

 

Trade Hayes 1st, let someone else sign him to an extension.. Then deal Zib at the deadline.

 

I assume the goal of last years draft was to have Anderson be a top 6 C and Chytil plating the pivot as well. Get all teh assets you can. If you are going to suck, suck correctly.

I'm with you all the way, Flynn!! Both will be long gone by the time this team is a contender again. This is a 3 year (at least) rebuild and we're going to have to stock pile more picks for next year...possibly to get a game breaking player in the top 3 of the 2019 draft.

I'm not wow'ed by Hayes very much and Zib has had a decent run here. I don't believe he'll fit the physical style of our new coach and that's a good thing. I'd rather see the Rangers move these guys to teams that have a chance at winning the cup....and in return we get some seriously high draft picks for them...

You can toss Zuccarello in there as well.

If you trade them to teams that are close to winning the cup, your not getting a high draft pick.

"Have a chance" was the term I used....not "serious contenders". Obviously we're not going to get as low a pick as possible but "Bubble teams" would be the target, just to clear up my thought.

If you trade them to teams that are close to winning the cup, your not getting a high draft pick.

trading both goes a long way to increasing the lottery odds on your own pick in addition to gathering additional assets.

If this is going to be a true rebuild.. may as well trade both of them...

 

Trade Hayes 1st, let someone else sign him to an extension.. Then deal Zib at the deadline.

 

I assume the goal of last years draft was to have Anderson be a top 6 C and Chytil plating the pivot as well. Get all teh assets you can. If you are going to suck, suck correctly.

I am far from convinced that this is going to be a "true" or "full" rebuild — and I am not buying into the premise that it is.

IIRC, the Rangers said they were going to aim to been back in contention sooner rather than later, indicating no desire to completely tear down everything to the concrete floor. They also said they had no intention of fielding a team of 19 year olds. Pure memory on my part, but I just don't seem them demolishing the entire structure to go from A to Z.

THAT SAID, I think they do have a potential emerging problem at center, and the part that scares me most is Zibs' concussion history and injury record. It all has a feel of deja vu all over again to me, where we have a key player, if not easily our best player, one hard hit away from oblivion. I would hate to get all the way there, and then, in some nasty nasty playoff game, see him wiped from the picture by a gratuitous marginal hit. Our playoff hopes dashed and some quasi-goon gets away with a three game suspension.

If I'm being honest, I'll say I am not sure he isn't too fragile, and possibly not quite durably Tonka enough to take the beating the next 3-4 years will dole out here. But I am no expert. I don't know how well he rebounds from concussion, really, whether he is at high risk for another debilitating one a la Staal. All I know is that I feel very worried about putting all my hopes in that basket. Hayes wins on purely durability. But...

Otherwise, if Zibs stays, and I think Zibs should stay if a sound determinination of the health risk and the ability to play "contender tough" is within reason, and if it's a case of a true either/or [which I don't think it is, yet], then there's no contest — Zibs is by far the more skilled and potent player to my mind.

Let's see how Chytil and Andersson do in camp, and let's think about moving players to the wing before divesting completely of one or both.

To me, it's still too early to make that call, but something to watch. The time horizon sucks.

Hayes is an RFA so I would look at signing him to a market-accurate contract and you can always trade later if that's the final decision.

I wasn?t entirely convinced until the draft unfolded as it did. Now I think they will rebuild as they should.

In regards to which to trade it honestly comes down to whom gives you the return that is in the best interest of the team. Zib is a better scorer but not a shutdown center like Hayes. Which is vital to a roster. If Hayes prices himself out past what his role is, trade him.

Tough one, but I do agree we need to move both. Hayes 1st and preferably before he signs his next contract. Zibenajad does get hurt a lot and has a concussion history but right now he?s only 1 of 2 righties on our team.

We really need to reshuffle the deck. Get more balance on our team.

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I think both players are good....the fact remains that Hayes is at best a #2 Center...which is not a bad cap for him.

He has talent, can skate pretty well, has good size and can win faceoffs. Is he worth 5+ million? I don't think so...certainly not on this team. We need to unload contracts and not add any right now. Again this is my take.

With Zibby, he has talent, and is very good complimentary player, but I don't see him as the highly skilled, physical, power center/forward a team needs to be a Cup contender. Plus, I agree he's playing on borrowed time with his concussion history, and Blue is dead on with "some quasi-goon taking a run at him in the playoffs".

If we play our cards "wrong" and go in the tank a little bit this season, we may be able to pull off a Jack Hughes in 2019 draft and further jump start this rebuild a little more. Not to mention whatever else we can obtain dealing off some older players and soon to be free agents that won't fit the mix...*cough* Zucc....

Neither. It is a stupid question by Brooks. If Zibs is a concussion risk, how can one justify an urgent need to trade Hayes? We are going into the season with both, and the team will assess our talent under a new coach.

Keeping Z and Hayes is part of why our plan should not be defined as a 'full tear down tank job'. It is a rebuild, meaning we are not going to mortgage the future for the short term. All moves now have a long view in mind.

Can't our rebuild can be about accumulating as many good young assets as possible, w/o stripping the team bare of every 24-26 year old? Shouldn't part of the rebuild be to see which young vets are capable of taking the next step in new circumstances, with new leadership? Who will be part of the vet core in the next 2-5 years?

The better question at this point is what player(s) are we interested in? Right now we need to find a potential top liner or a #1RHD. Potential, since those already stars are even costlier and more unrealistic. That would be the only reason to consider trading one of our top 2 Cs, before the season starts. Therefore, what's the point in talking about it unless we talk about what we are looking to gain.

I am far from convinced that this is going to be a "true" or "full" rebuild ? and I am not buying into the premise that it is.

IIRC, the Rangers said they were going to aim to been back in contention sooner rather than later, indicating no desire to completely tear down everything to the concrete floor. They also said they had no intention of fielding a team of 19 year olds. Pure memory on my part, but I just don't seem them demolishing the entire structure to go from A to Z.

 

THAT SAID, I think they do have a potential emerging problem at center, and the part that scares me most is Zibs' concussion history and injury record. It all has a feel of deja vu all over again to me, where we have a key player, if not easily our best player, one hard hit away from oblivion. I would hate to get all the way there, and then, in some nasty nasty playoff game, see him wiped from the picture by a gratuitous marginal hit. Our playoff hopes dashed and some quasi-goon gets away with a three game suspension.

 

If I'm being honest, I'll say I am not sure he isn't too fragile, and possibly not quite durably Tonka enough to take the beating the next 3-4 years will dole out here. But I am no expert. I don't know how well he rebounds from concussion, really, whether he is at high risk for another debilitating one a la Staal. All I know is that I feel very worried about putting all my hopes in that basket. Hayes wins on purely durability. But...

 

Otherwise, if Zibs stays, and I think Zibs should stay if a sound determinination of the health risk and the ability to play "contender tough" is within reason, and if it's a case of a true either/or [which I don't think it is, yet], then there's no contest ? Zibs is by far the more skilled and potent player to my mind.

 

Let's see how Chytil and Andersson do in camp, and let's think about moving players to the wing before divesting completely of one or both.

 

To me, it's still too early to make that call, but something to watch. The time horizon sucks.

Hayes is an RFA so I would look at signing him to a market-accurate contract and you can always trade later if that's the final decision.

Blue my friend, see my post above and consider that Gorton should have some flexibility in assessing how the rebuild is going, who we are selling, when and who we are keeping and for how long. The coach will have a say in where guys play and when and how good they are performing on all levels. Therefore, just not dumping our vets plus rolling with a bunch of kids in their early 20's means we are not going with a lineup of 18/19 year olds.

We are getting too literal, dissecting every word and desire instead of understanding the big picture. Simply, we are not tearing it down and completely starting over. But we are willing to load up on young guys who we can develop and be cost-controlled here for years. All the while going into the season with the ability to ice a lineup that doesn't force all the kids to NY, or too far up the lineup, too soon.

We can't trade everyone before the season. We are better off finding a few good targets and see if they are available. Otherwise, remain opportunistic and talk to GMs. If one or more of our RFAs and vets like Zuc or Shatty can bring what we want in return, then we can make a move. No point in just hanging a for sale, clearance items, sign on our door.

Now what we do in January to the trade deadline is a different agenda. We will have assessed the players and the team. Thus we can move forward accordingly. Dump players for 1st rounders or top prospects, where it makes sense.

Lastly, blue and others, it is worth noting that Zibs is built solid and never had an injury below the neck until the freak leg break, which is not an issue.

The only concern for him is concussion risk. It's a legit concern and the only legit reason to consider a deal where a team is willing to give us a potential star for a package that centers around Zib.

Hayes goes. I really don't want him in a 2nd line role and I don't want to pay him his next contract, because then there's the obligation to play him as your 2nd line center due to his cost. I'd rather go with Spooner or Namestnikov, because I feel they will be cheaper and expendable when Chytil and Andersson are ready to take their spots.

I don't want to eat away cap space, just in case the shit hits the fan somewhere else, and younger players need to be moved due to cap constraints. OR a vet hits free agency. Having Hayes at 5.5 might bite them in the ass. I don't see him turning a corner, or putting up the goals he did last season. I've never been a big believer in his offensive game. He's alright on D, but I feel they can replace that aspect in other ways, with some cheaper kids as well as their top prospects. I'm planning on Andersson pretty much being in the role Hayes has played the last few years. Third line center with defensive responsibilities.

Leave growing room for the kids. Shit, if Chytil really takes off, maybe he's your first line center. Moving Zib to the wing? Am I the only one who thinks Zib will thrive in a system that allows him to shoot a lot and crash the net? That's when he's at his best.

Did no one watch Zib center Sweden's top line en-route to gold at the World's? Guy just needs to stay healthy. When its time, I'm sticking with my ballsy prediction from last year. Zib breaks 70 points.

Yes, he looked great. I cant remember, were they on bigger rinks? He was skating a lot more, very free. Id like to see him move to wing to see that more often, and focus less on defending. Plus, i think we'd see him use that shot more.

A few things:

Rangers don't need to create space. Andersson and Chytil need to prove they're worthy of an NHL role before they're handed over.

Playing a 4th line role as a rookie, is not a bad thing. The list of stars who have done it in the past is long.

In what world is Hayes worth 5.5 million?

I would honestly be fine with the Rangers just going with youth from the end of this year forward. I really don't think it's an absolute necessity to bring in these so called "experienced players" to "teach" the kids. Fuck 'em! Let them learn the ropes on their own, and have someone emerge as a leader.

I know baseball and hockey are 2 different animals, but athletes are athletes. Jeter, Mo, Andy, and Jorge all pretty much came up together...maybe a year or 2 apart in most cases, and only a few years from Bernie. There were no leaders on that team until Jeter grabbed the bull by the balls and helped spin that franchise into a perennial powerhouse.

Yeah salary cap and all that bullshit aside, the point is that I don't feel as if you HAVE to have some old players in the lineup to teach this shit...it's hockey, not brain surgery. Can it help in some cases, yeah maybe a little...mostly in playoff hockey...but I don't see this franchise even sniffing a playoff game for at least 3 years. And as tough a pill that is to swallow, the fact remains that bringing in older players like Grabner, Lucic and the rest of these fossils in my eyes, doesn't help the progression of a rebuild. I think it actually detracts from it's progress because I think it clogs up spots that younger players can be playing in.

I say fuck it all...dump the rest of this entire shit show Sather put here at some point this season or next if possible, and lets get our shit together for the 2021-2022 season. No use in debating about Hayes, Zibby, Hank, Zucc or any of the other shit balls stuck to the hairs of my ass on this team; I think we should set our sights on guys like Jack Hughes types that are franchise players and can help build us a solid core of players we can build on for many years.

...I suppose I'm looking further down the road, because I just see this coming season as a complete nose dive from day 1....seriously, I'm expecting about 67-72 points this year. Which I think is the PERFECT training ground for younger players with little to no experience. Let them all go play and pay their fucking dues and learn from the ground up....and I hope Quinn beats the piss out of them until they GET IT RIGHT.

Did no one watch Zib center Sweden's top line en-route to gold at the World's? Guy just needs to stay healthy. When its time, I'm sticking with my ballsy prediction from last year. Zib breaks 70 points.

Totally agree, been saying this for a while aswell. Everytime he's been healthy he's been really good and putting up alot of points (especially on the PP) for us. Healthy is obviously the key word and nothing that can be guaranteed.

Ozzy nobody here wants Lucic, he is the unrole model. What we wanted was a piece of shit liability that is attached to an asset that could turn into a star for us like pick 10. Or next year's pick and Pujarv. Feel free to not like the idea, but don't misunderstand the idea.

Nobody here is screaming for Grabner. I'll speak for myself, I'd bring him in as a cheap asset that is better to put on the 4th line with our kids than a Paul Carey or some other fringe player who hurts our ability to assess and improve our real talent. Additionally, if we don't add somebody we end up rushing one of our kids and wrecking them like Nail Yakapov. Heard stories that support the lack of proper development of Yakapov and others.

This is a team game at every second. In baseball you don't need a teammate to set up your ability to get a base hit. You know this.

As for preparing a roster for 2019, we still want guys who can play, contribute to the team and work towards winning. Even if we expect a lot less winning.

Grabs, for instance, plays super fast, good D, top PKer, good example (always in top shape/work ethic) and can play the way Quinn wants. He contributes positively to the end goals. Carey, Holland and the slew of JAGS on camp tryouts are not the right way to go. Do you really want Lias centering a 4th line with Carey and McLoud or Grabner and Fast? Or Phil might have Grabner/Fast and Roussel, for his grit, with Lias. Don't you care about about Lias's success? And assessing him properly?

Now if there were a bunch of 21 y/o knocking at the door, let em in. Problem is right now almost all the kids are one and two years (or more) away.